TheSpiritFox

My thugs/time only runs out of end when I hit heavy end drain mobs or when I hit burnout. If you build it even halfway decently, endurance should not be a problem, especially at higher levels as chrono shift boosts your endurance recovery for a bit and with a high enough recharge build you can perma it and have like half uptime on the endurance boost (I think it lasts 30 seconds and you can get the recharge down to around a minute) Musculature core, ESPECIALLY if you do not have a full attack chain that you are personally firing off. If you are actively shooting shit yourself, you might need to think about more to the point ageless might be worth it over barrier. Even if you need endurance I would take musculature core. You have a limited number of ways to increase your pet damage. Short of fulcrum shift and debuffs, there's not a ton you can do to kill things faster as an MM. Musculature core is too good to pass up in this regard generally, every single MM I have made has it. Destiny? I go with barrier. Mez honestly doesn't matter that much. It drops your toggle and prevents heals, but like your major powers should be fired off before a fight starts from buffs to distortion field or like bonfire going off as your pets take aggro and charge in. I find that the best way to avoid mez is to send the pets in and let them take the initial round of mez, then jump in after. Remember that mez has to hit you. Times juncture and farsight both help in this regard. But sending your pets in from you standing outside of mez range and jumping in after the initial mez volley gets fired off works better. Clarion can work, but you'll get more mileage out of being actually immortal for a solid 30 seconds with barrier core. Can't mez what you can't hit and even if that 5% gets through, you aint dying with barrier up standing in bodyguard like it will not happen until it drops all the way back down to the 5% bonus. If you were going to pick a second option, incandescence is fun and pretty sure it teleports your pets to you. Ageless if you need end that badly or are facing incarnate mobs with heavy defense debuffs. Interface? Degen is best for AVs, reactive is best for everything else overall. With MMs it is the one time that taking radial over taking core is a solid bet, MMs especially thugs throw out such a large number of attacks that you will easily stack the buff on a single target with them all attacking it while also doing a solid DPS increase in proc damage. Nothing else comes close to throwing out the sheer number of attacks MMs do. But the -tohit one is solid for survival as well. Want to laugh at every single lvl 54 mob in the game as it flails helplessly at you? Take the -tohit interface. Support core is the best choice for MMs. Solid little buff to pets. Control core is almost useless. Niche power that doesn't help often or well for you. Melee core is actually a super solid choice. Your damage gets mitigated before it gets split. If you have 75% resistance, that applies, then the damage is split between you and pets after. If you make a tankermind that takes provoke, melee core is a solid choice for keeping you alive through it. Assault core is both great and terrible. Doublehit on MMs is kinda fucking nuts and hilarious, but having to summon your entire army after activating the power loses you some of it's use time and makes it a pain in the ass of the kind that you'll either spend alot of time resummoning just to justify having taken it, or not use it much outside of pylon tests and av fights. Judgement? You're going to be in melee alot, so a PBAOE incarnate isn't a terrible idea, but Ion is the best and will remain the best because no other judgement does nearly as much aoe damage as that fire and forget hilarity. Ion is "I don't wanna think about this, I just wanna kill everything in the room" Lore? If you want performance, go longbow. The -regen on a -regen light toon like /times will enable you to chew down AVs alot faster. If you build this out well you legit won't actually need your lore to handle pretty much anything else. If you don't care about performance literally pick anything you want. Lores got rebalanced at some point, they're all pretty good now from what I understand. Either take longbow, or take something that matches your character concept.

If you want to farm on a thugs/time you want the pet uniques. With pet uniques, enforcer maneuvers, leadership maneuvers, and farsight, your pets should be softcapped and you should be able to handle +0x8 without a problem. Moving up from there into like +2 to +4 content requires a finished build. I posted my thugs time in the other thread where you were asking questions. If you want to farm, I highly recommend you take my build over the rest. It is built straight up to be tanky as fuck. The high recharge means your buffs are perma, bonfire is up pretty fast with no recharge in it allowing for max proc rate from it, your heal can basically be fired over and over and over again, and with bonfire, softcapped pets, and times juncture, this build is safe even in +4x8 content, though it does take a minute to chew through the enemies. I can't clear +4x8 as fast as like a farming brute in a farming map. But I can clear ANY content with respectable speed including +4x8 arachnos or +4x8 incarnate mobs in DA, just have to be careful and expect the RNG to kill you once in a while.

Yeah I keep temporal selection up on my bruiser. It makes him far tankier in the aoe heal, the damage and regen are nice too. Honestly though I use temporal selection a ton because I think the animation is pretty and i like throwing it at teammates.

It only procs on you, but it can proc at any time. I have one in my Thugs/traps in triage beacon and the proc chance increases as your health decreases, when I drop to low health it is super common to see it proc up.

Alright this is my thugs/time. Not the most optimized, but still insanely effective. I don't do MM personal attacks, generally. I could fit one in, I'd lose TP friend and have to reslot some stuff. Don't like time stop. Don't get much use out of it tbh. With the slow fields, the defenses, and the -tohit I haven't found that there's any particular use for a single target hold. Its not enough for AVs and anything less mostly can't resist the slows. Not taking a power just to deal with warwolves lol. But this build is pretty nuts with what it can do. Thugs are softcapped. Notice there's very little consideration given to personal defenses? Completely unnecessary. Send in the pets, cast bonfire as they run in, jump in and cast distortion field, fire off heal, wait for shit to die. This build is pretty close to unkillable in most content. The softcap plus times juncture gives me all the defenses I need to handle even incarnate content without any real issue before I actually fire off incarnate powers. Its got enough recovery to take barrier, musculature, etc. I think that my thugs slotting is about close to ideal if you need recharge in your build. You get your procs in enforcers, you get your full set of pet auras, you got 3 10% recharge bonuses just from pet slotting. My time and pool stuff, that can vary quite alot depending on build goals. But because thugs/time has zero mez protection, building it to tankermind is an overall bad idea. I built this build around pet tanks. They go in first they take the alpha. Sometimes I lose a minion, most of the time not.

My biggest problem is that LRT is too grindy to unlock. The enterbase thing, my biggest complaint is that the cosmic base became something of a minor social space. Lots of people crossed through it and it helped the game have a feeling of population. Thats gone, that sucks, whatever. I get there are alot of options. I set up a base for this change. The badge grind for LRT adds nothing to the game. It is miserably boring, insanely repetitive, and generally can take a solid half hour per character to complete. If someone has 40 50s that's just an extra 20 hours added to sink into the game. I would really like to have the exploration badge requirement changed to just unlocking LRT locations on visiting that zone at all, put a badge at every portal in every zone to shorten the time this takes considerably, or having LRT locations unlock with your level, level into a zone and that zone unlocks.

100% agree with this. I now have 6 50s with all zones unlocked by portaling around. Its boring, it adds absolutely nothing to the game, and every character is just porting to an area, seeking a specific badge closest to the portal, back to portal, to next area. Takes a solid half hour to unlock everything on one toon with load times and shit. Its mind numbingly boring. Options? Personally I just think that LRT should unlock based on level. When you level into the range of a zone, that zone unlocks on LRT. It is one thing to eliminate fast travel that can like be used to exploit the game. It is another thing to replace it with a per character grind. This was a massive mistake and I really honestly do not appreciate returning to MMO grind stuff when it comes to like having to grind out quality of life shit. If we're going to be doing that why have pay2win vendors in the first place. Either put a new badge at every SG portal so you can just port and port back and do this faster, or make LRT unlock areas based on your current level with every area opened the second you hit 50. I am not a badge hunter like some of us do not give a shit. Accolade grinding is enough, please don't make us grind out LRT per character. There is absolutely no reason to add a half hour like portals and load times and short bursts of travel to badges grind to this game per character. If you've got 10 characters thats just another random 5 hours of grinding for area access. If you're an altaholic, it's a goddamn 40 hour workweek added to get basically back to where you were a week ago.

Specific request for supergroup base portals. Add functionality to drop a supergroup portal with your base enabled as a menu option for other people. As in, if you drop the portal, the portal will enable them to enter your base to use teleporters and such without them having to know the code or enter the code into a macro or save a code somewhere.

Thugs are solid with Dark, demons are better overall. Tankier, resistance stacks with resistance. Thugs do best with cold, traps, and time overall if you're looking for a strong contender. Time is the tankiest, traps does the most damage, cold is a decent middle ground with cool visuals.

I agree with this. I like what I've heard of all of the titan weapon changes, but attaching a damage reduction to an inherent BUFF mechanic like that is something not done anywhere else in the game code and this should not be the start of that trend.

Regen? Spore cloud does a bit of -regen. Not a ton, but enough to neuter a good bit of regen from anything not purple and not av. Mostly I deal with AV regen by outdamaging it. It takes a minute, but you can definitely grind down most AVs with demons, they do enough damage. The first power is great. Its not a damaging power its a debuff, -res and -dam is solid. Its only single target, but it lasts 30 seconds and comes up quick with any kind of recharge build. I left the first power at it's default slot, threw a +5 accuracy in it, and went about my day.

I soloed the ITF on +1 with demons/nature. I really love that combo. Better debuffs and damage than /EA with barely any loss in survivability. If I were going to pair it with anything else for soloing I would do thermal.

If you wanna play bots, I would say Elec is on the higher end of powersets to match with it. Basic concepts. Bots are a mid tier pet set. Strong in certain ways like beasts are and weak in others. Elec affinity is an upper tier secondary for MMs. Competes with /nature for most survivable MM secondary. So it it a waste to build it? Absolutely not. It can be a soldily strong set. Take mu patron with it for electric fences, it both fits your theme and electric fences are a godsend for keeping things in bot burn patches and keeping bots from knocking shit back. If you want to think about switching around the power set at all? Bots do best with defense based secondaries. Time, cold, and traps are top teir for bots. Elec does best with resistance based primaries like Demons and Necro, however beasts gets an honorable mention with elec because melee pets are actually pretty easy to keep inside your elec resistance buff cage and with the heal and absorb in elec you can actually afford to not use fortify pack except in emergencies and keep your beasts doing max damage. Demons/elec is the best MM you can make with elec affinity overall. with all the pet uniques slotted your demons should be above 60% resistance to everything with some resistances capped or close to it. Elec does not have many tools to enable your pets to do more damage, but it does have the tools needed to make your demons pretty close to unkillable. If you have the endurance to keep firing the absorb and the heal on cooldown like I have yet to find content capable of killing my demons/elec without hitting the aggro cap on more than one individual minion, like yeah nothing can survive aggroing 40 things all at the same time like an MM can do If you want to make bots, I would say that bots/time or bots/traps are the best bots mms you can make. Time is a bit safer than traps. Both of them hit the softcap, but time lowers enemy tohit, damage, and dumps slows and -rech on enemeis as well lowering incoming damage to hilariously low levels. Traps on the other hand can stack insane levels of debuffs on pretty much everything everywhere with acid mortar and poison trap. Traps exchanges some of the safety of time (you really need to take aid pool with a traps mm build) for having a toolkit of some of the best debuffing powers in the game bar none. Nothing can dump as much debuffs on an enemy group as a high recharge traps build, especially with burnout added to the equation.

My understanding of auras is that all pet auras got changed to 40 foot radius to match supremacy range, I think it was a homecoming change at some point.

huh it looks like they forgot to remove that when they did it to Fiery aura. no that does need a change.

The fear in fire patches got removed a long while back if thats what he's talking about. I've literally been on my thugs/time today, stuff just stands in burn patches, which is why I was wondering wtf he's talking about. I think its more that without taunt, things tend to run with low HP decently often, and so yeah if a 4/5 dead boss decides to take to his heels he's just gonna do it, has nothing to do with fear.

Ive never heard a word about this. Fear in his attacks? I've never seen thugs cause fear.

My demons/nature actually took flight, hover, and afterburner to mule LOTGs and the universal travel knockback IO. Nature benefits from flight as you can re angle your heal and sometimes healing the entire team is easiest looking down not to the side lol. You can fit both if you want, and if you don't want to take super speed then putting the celerity stealth IO in sprint and leaving sprint on will do half the job for none of the power choices while you fly around. I built my demons nature to fly around with super speed on lmao but you can do it however you like.

Alright cool. First, I'm not sure what binds you are using. I'm going to share mine because they are suuuuper practical. The very first thing I do on a new character is expand my hotbar up to 3 bars 1, 2, and 3 at the top. Then I go into binds. I bind the middle hotbar (2) to 1-0. Damage skills go up front for 1-5 generally, big buffs past that. The bottom row (1) I assign q, e, ,r, f, mouse thumb 1, x, mouse thumb 2. Then on a new MM, I make the following macros. /Macro ATK "petcom_all aggressive$$petcom_all goto" /Macro DEF "Petcom_all defensive$$petcom_all goto" /Macro GRD "petcom_all defensive$$petcom_all follow" /bind mbutton "petcom_all attack" /bind shift+mbutton "petcom_all stay" These macros are genuinely all you need in order to work pets through 99.9% of content unless you want to get fancy. I think the numpad MM controls are terrible. You have to train muscle memory to use them effectively and you will almost never need that split second control of specific minions. Every single MM I have uses these macros and only these macros for pet control and it works well. I put the three macros on q, e, and r or the first three slots of tray 1. Now, why is this literally all you need? Because Homecoming modified pet AI and made it fucking awesome that's why. The goto command creates a location pin. Pets go to that location specified and attempt to stay within like 30 feet of the location indicated. This is generally superior to follow in that it leashes pets to a certain distance from a certain point. Pets will stay within 30 feet or so of the location in whatever stance (aggressive, defensive, passive) you set them in and act accordingly. This means that pets in goto aggressive will stay right in an area and not aggro other groups like they used to and you can just let them chew things down. This means that pets in goto defensive puts you in bodyguard mode if you are in supremacy range. Not only will you get bodyguard and split damage with your pets, but goto keeps them in range to continue splitting damage rather than allowing them to run off and aggro things, get killed away from you, or reduce the split for bodyguard damage reduction. You can use these as often as you want. There is no cooldown on pet commands. I mostly defensive goto my pets across a level, hitting R for follow when I move from group to group so that they don't stay because pets WILL stay at a goto spot until you get far enough away for them to TP to you. Aggressive goto means that if you're in a group and not getting attacked, thus your pets are standing there in the carnage doing nothing, a single button press and click and they start attacking anything around them until its all dead. The middle mouse bind allows you to specifically target enemies. Lets say you start on a group, aggro gets taken by the pets or someone else and nothing is attacking you. Well, bosses are the things to chew down and you can totally use the middle mouse to target a boss with all your pets and let smaller stuff die to AOE or die after the boss is down. The second bind, shift+middle mouse, is for damage patches. Some enemies drop damage patches on the ground like caltrops that your pets AI will attempt to run out of. The pet AI for fleeing damage patches is shit. They will often run as far away as they can before returning, all your pets suddenly sprinting 80 feet away can get you killed. Stay makes your pets fully stay. They will stand there and die no matter what is happening. Which as a /nature who can heal a group of pets through most sources of damage, that's EXACTLY what you want. Now, some basics about a demons/nature mm? 1) Take hell on earth and slot it with at least 3 pet uniques. There are 6 pet IO sets which each have a unique that adds defense in some way. 3 of them add a total of 35% resistance to all damage and a regen aura to all pets. The other 3 increase ranged and melee defense by 10% and AOE damage by 20%. You can fit the rest in your pets or slot 4 uniques in Hell on Earth and 2 recharge IOs or something. 2) Take no more than 1 personal attack generally. Demons have the best and the personal attacks are still overall garbage and a waste of endurance, but they do help kill things moderately faster. I do not take the primary attacks on any MM, other people do, personal preference there but I highly recommend you at least do not take more than 2 of them, you'll have enough to do with your support powers without trying to give yourself a damage chain that is effective. 3) Demons/nature is a pet tanking set. Your goal is to have the pets taking the majority of the hits so you can buff and heal them through it. You have zero mez protection. Like, none. And you have not one, not two, but three active toggles in your set which can be shut off by mez. You've got your debuff that does -damage and -tohit, you've got your location buff that puts a patch on the ground that heals automatically if something is inside it that's friendly, and at the top end you've got your hold aura. All offensive toggles that get shut off by mez. In order to avoid this, my demons nature playstyle is basically this. You start casting your heal patch and sending the pets in, the heal patch doesn't aggro enemies. Then you cast your debuff on a boss, the pets should be getting aggro and a debuff shouldn't get you much attention, then drop a heal to keep them recovering through the alpha, then I walk in myself with my hold aura and shut the spawn all the way down basically and go from there. It works really well and I almost never lose pets. My Demons/nature has soloed the ITF at +1. Took about 90 minutes to do it. Demons and nature combined can hit really solid resist numbers. I stack maneuvers on top of the pet auras for just a little more defense and end up with pets with very high resists overall and moderately decent defenses, and with absorb and nature heals it is genuinely difficult to kill this character in most content so long as you do not get mezzed such that you start losing individual pets when the heals stop. Mez is the thing that will kill you 90% of the time So the end point of 3 is take super speed as your first travel power, slot it with the celerity stealth IO, and start reducing the aggro and attention you can get very early by just making yourself invisible. Enemies will absolutely not see you but see your pets and attack them instead of you, which is exactly what you want. 4) Slot your endurance stuff as early as possible. As in, by the time you hit 17 you should at least have 2 slots in health and 2 in stamina for numina, miracle, and performance shifter procs and a performance shifter end mod. You have enough early toggles and such that you will want it. 5) Your main early heal in nature is a cone. 90 degree angle 45 feet long. That's already a large area, but you can make it huger. I put 4 heal enhancements and 2 range in mine, from 45 to 67 feet. As the cone is 90 degrees, this about doubles the size of your heal area. It is absolutely worth it to put some range in your heal and allow you to just dump healing on an entire group even when they're scattered about, helps with positioning alot when you can just skirt around the edge of a battle and deluge those in melee with healing from safety. Demons/nature is a top performing mastermind set. I would go so far as to say that it is the tankiest of the debuff heavy secondaries, the only secondary that is even more tanky than demons/nature is demons/elect and demons/elec sacrifices alot of buff, debuff, and healing compared to nature to get it's ridiculous absorb power and better resistance buff than /nature has. Build some recharge into the build. Ideally you want your three primary nature buffs the resistance, the absorb, and the endurance/damage buff permanent. Resistance is easy af to get, absorb takes some serious recharge slotting, the last buff that gives you an end discount and damage is legit difficult to perma, mine is about 6 seconds shy of it myself. Nature also does not have a whole lot of spots for purple sets, no defensive powers for LOTG, etc so building it towards recharge is a bit of a challenge, but worth it. I put zero IO focus on developing my personal defenses. I built pretty much exclusively for recharge on mine and took whatever I got along the way towards building for it. When it comes to actually fully kitting out a build, ask again, people got suggestions for how to fully slot a demons/nature. Final tip: Epic and patron pools People might well disagree with me on this, but I am of the opinion that for demons/nature specifically there is exactly one ideal epic pool and that's heat mastery for bonfire. You don't need a shield, your goal is to not get attacked and to not be out of bodyguard if you do, otherwise you're probably dead shield or not. Building for personal defenses to tankermind gimps the fuck out of nature, so you don't want that either, nature needs all the recharge it can get. Power boost will boost your survival alot less than bonfire with sudden acceleration will. You can take attacks if you want, char procced out works as well as most in the MM pools. You don't really need an immobilize. Etc etc. Seriously, try bonfire. Even with its default slot and a sudden acceleration, drop it on the floor and more than half the mob group stops attacking. With it procced out it does a solid bit of aoe damage over time to anything that stays in it. Power boosting your resistance buff would not get you a tenth of the extra survivability that bonfire does.

TIL about Kismet. Noted

Lmao you're ignoring the amount of DPS I have to throw around to kill a pylon in 55 seconds. It means I can kill any AV I can tank in the game (which is most AVs)

You've never tried bonfire with a sudden acceleration in it out have you?

If you have two slots for procs or gaussian, achilles is taken care of elsewhere in the build, would you say enforcers get more benefit out of a damage proc or out of build up, considering like how many damage proc using abilities they have and how procs work with pets? I've been wondering, my thugs/time uses shield breaker and lady grey damage procs, and I was wondering if I might get more mileage replacing a lethal proc with build up, and how it maths out if anyone has any idea. Is it just "Both good, pick one?" or is one significantly better than the other?

Hmmmmm ok. I get it. Its only gonna boost enforcer damage but with 6 pets being effected by each of their tactics including themselves the proc chances are high and they can build up quite alot, boosting the base damage they do frequently and if there are other MMs on the team or pets which can be affected by enforcers the chances only go higher up to 90% chance to pop every time it ticks which is the cap. Yeah I can see that sounds like I might replace the proc that's lethal damage cause that's highly resisted anyway with gaussians. And I highly, highly recommend thugs/traps. Like, Bots/traps used to be my main, but without an easy way to mule pet auras and also needing at least a sudden acceleration in the assault bot to really get max DPS out of them in the first place bots/traps actually ends up being surprisingly fragile compared to like a bots/time. Protector bots having to individually rebubble is a real weakness of the bots and I think protector bots should get to bubble themselves. But thugs/traps isn't like that. Lose an enforcer or minion, resummon, and they are immediately at softcap as soon as they exist. Enforcers provide maneuvers as a baseline so if one dies you call him right back and his defense comes right back. Once your minions are softcapped they stay that way and cascading is harder than a bots/traps by far. At the same time you can fit all the auras so you've got 35% resists to everything. Triage beacon is actually helpful in this because what will really get you is the chip damage over time. The pet regen aura is not enough they can and will slowly die and healing them all individually is a pain, but high ass defenses, a bit of resist, and a triage beacon can keep your team alive and stacked triage beacons are actually a shitload of regen like I've seen my brute hit 35hp/sec regen. Triage helps mitigate attracting attention to yourself. Like if your pets are fighting and you use seekers to attract the attention of a new group, they're all gonna come after you. If the pets are in bodyguard then your damage gets split and triage beacon takes it away until the pets start aggroing on the new enemies and chewing them down too. It's kinda almost a passive tankermind style where you take hits not because you're keeping aggro but because you're fighting so much shit that some of its gonna be aiming at you and triage beacon and bodyguard mode let you defray that damage until your pets eventually murder everything capable of damaging you. I am toying with removing the purple set from acid mortar and just proccing it out but I really, really like having it on a sub 30 second recharge. The damage multiplier of being able to have two of them out potentially proccing achilles on everything... I'll put it this way the longer I am in a group the faster things seem to die until suddenly the fires burn out and I am just surrounded by corpses to make any warshade jealous. I focused on recharge and defenses over damage but in the process I also went as heavy debuff as I thought I could manage with a good bit of control. Bonfire and stacked caltrops often means just nothing can stand up, even AVs. Its truly the most mastermindy build I have played. You have so many tools to deal with things and thugs burnout double gangwar synergizes perfectly with traps long recharge letting you stack EVEN MOAR traps in a pinch. This is my main MM now for a reason. I took super jump and super speed and like I can keep up with Speed Miss Liberties and stuff. My traps come up so fast that like I'm walking up to AVs in speed runs always having a poison trap to drop and super speed lets me move so fast the pets have to teleport to catch up so as long as I am not taking the alpha my pets arrive in seconds and we burn the AV down and move on. My fastest pylon run was 55 seconds without lore pets. Slowest was like 1:25, but I had some bad luck with knockback that round. Its such a great combo I highly recommend it, once you fully IO it out its a goddamn monster and it has alot of sidegrade room to like choose some damage powers or focus hard on defenses and buffs and move slots around accordingly. Your patron power pick is pretty open, though I really think bonfire is of far more benefit than anything else being a new layered mitigation. Also, bind web grenade to shift+left click. Doo eeeettttt. I never realized how much I should be web grenading things until I did that and now its like ha who needs aggro control I can just immobilize everything thats not a damn council wolf.

I can literally kill a pylon faster than most other archetypes and powerset combinations with a number of mastermind builds without using lore pets, they can achieve over a thousand single target DPS with a number of builds, and at the same time can solo +4x8 more effectively and throw out more aoe dps than a significant number of ATs and powersets. My thugs/traps is tankier than anything that is not a brute, tank, or Khledian built to use dwarf well. Yesterday on my thugs/traps we did a banners event in steel. I killed my banner alone faster than a brute, scrapper, dom, and two controllers took down their banner together all attacking it. We each had one lore pet out at the banner. Masterminds have the widest variance in top performance of powersets. A mercs/trick arrow is a nightmare to play even if you spend a billion influence on it or as close to it as you can manage. By comparison, a thugs/traps can solo most TFs in the game at +0 if it's slotted out with an effective attuned IO build, perhaps with the help of prestige or temp attacks in lower levels to make up for missing pets. But my first post in reply to you was trying to communicate that based on how you advised slotting your thugs, you do not understand the IO system in this game at all and what a difference those IO sets make in the power of a mastermind. They are absolutely not "weaker" than other archetypes and if you think so you do genuinely do not know how to build or play MMs. I can solo content most other ATs can't on a number of my MMs. They can be built to be a combination of insanely tanky, solid team support, and solid damage. MMs are some of the most effective jack of all trades because we can also be master of a few. But you have no clue how to IO out an MM to actually squeeze the top end performance out of them.