Bill Z Bubba

@modest I didn't ask for your builds. I asked for data similar to what I have put forth so far.

Ok. Fine. Show me the testing where these exact builds are utilized across all three ATs for their times as I have shown for claws/sr. I've been hoping others would hop in for this whole thread.

Irrelevant. Get the SR/Kat tank to those same mitigation values and see how much more +damage you can get into the build.

No, I'm not. I did it in mids and it wouldn't be a build I'd play because it's not even at the regular defense softcap.

I want to go farther than that. Set brute base mitigation values AND base HP to be 85% tank values and lower brute mitigation caps to 85% as well.

I posted my new tank build, still well over regualr softcap and damn near incarnate softcap with vastly more +damage and more aoe attacks. Please take a look as you can. I'm about to start the 10 run testing with said new build.

Slot the brute AT IO for a chance for +fury into whatever attack you use often. You'll be sitting in the upper 90% on fury which means you'll be cranking out damage at +180%. This is thing of beauty, fully stop. Play what feels good to you. Play what's fun for you. Ignore this number crunchin crap unless you LIKE the number crunchin crap.

Why, yes, I am currently running Black Scorpion's arc on live so that I can respec my sr/claws tank into the above build and rerun 10 maps of that test arc. For the record, the brute with the identical slotting as above? Not even regular softcapped:

Here's a quick new SR/Claws tank build. http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1529&c=716&a=1432&f=HEX&dc=78DA6594594F135114C7EFD0194A37962E94ADD216B01B1D5AC0854D12448C400D11F5C1C4D4112ED0D840D342C047BF821A7D31468D0F3EF91DFC126E3CFAE20B8B6BF4C1D4D339FF4043276D7F77FEF3BFE79C7BCF9D6676A69D6F2F3F98148AF362DE2895B2D78DF57BB2A8658CD5DC92A0CB39756B2A78556E072B0FAC2404D8919D962B72BD24F5C5AD02DD5D932B79B9234B6E3CCDC8BC943A85DC2E09C7C2C6465E9FC9E756D736EDE678B120E5B28BE58A9A5B5F6D32EFE6A5B12C8BA5B55CC177A9905BD2A78A5B9B329BD9CA668CD2A62CDE6FA302FAE97BAE957E944A7D654DEC5B8448ABA2EE80A91E321BBE3107BE833F98CF220257993E7489F3144DE168166506D1AE20DA2CA2CD319FD36C0BCFD62C913A53AB8F8231A63DCE3C9500DF113DAA18A53C1A326B2142DA261CB4A75668D61E61FAC324D8B81EC596609F1D1CA7180ED4EA68564CBFD3037A99491F53A1382EC476992B7D41D537A1FAA611AEAE79141C63768C337B26C0495EF918656EE1CC752DC8EC464637328E90C7038F071E2F3C5E7826C8E383C7677AACA2D50BFA982FA94EBFD992B2E67FCFF9DB3E801F991D9F983D9F99BDBBCC0B14BF9DE38BF63182D5225E51BC4EACBB33C9EBEAD2C1017429C5EC4D833AC7B3D02E0670D6027E1A0454111CE467A19FE02F9CB13FCCF45F9C1E9ADB8D6E75DB796D4107E862861A996EF286D1AD304EC76BAABB0F75F70D725DA787C061F00C337216FCA29ABC43254479AE25AA69A616AB07ADCC7403D3206F02DE04BCFDF0F69FF0DAA84E1D75EAE8A9A03D4F414BFD13E61E75A927DFB3987AF4D696E3354F53354ABA4619AA51866B94F96A05FD5F50919834C574D99A8FDEE3F29EFDE8FD174A9277FEE058D3943DEE6624C48CDFE455C7678911DAA1AFAC276FB0BE5F1D2FCAF10EABE33DE44E353E021F33634F98F1A7CCE46FEEE49C87807D9BF11F8FDF848FC70BF6CABF058F6F578D8DAAF1DDAAF17F36ACEB3C Edit: Wait... kismet +6% ain't global? The power has to be on for it to function? Whatever. Throw a slow resist or whatever in there. Or take taunt.

Made doubly amusing since my *main* is the scrapper, seconded by the tank. I'm trying to determine why the brute exists.

It's too bad that the brute isn't sitting at 50%. At the VERY least I get to drop combat jumping and add in assault. Will probably be able to drop energy mastery and add in pyre mastery for more aoe.

But I want to hit this specifically. What happens if you build an elec/rad tank? All that extra effort you spent getting to those caps on the brute could instead be spent on increasing your damage output. Edit: Let me put this another way. What happens to my SR tank's damage output when I build it to specifically to match the SR brute's current mitigation values? That leaves a WHOLE lotta build room to increase his kill speed.

LOL. I can't count the number of times I've been called an edge case. Yes, AND a head case but that's a different story.

And I don't disagree with this statement at all. But there's no reason not to fix broken shit.

Why not calculate in the average up time of buildup for both? Mids is showing 80% for both and I just verified that in game. And the value for tank followup is higher than brute followup as per mids. 35.29 vs 30. Mids is not accurate. In game monitor shows 30% for both tank and brute. Regardless, but both followup and build up benefit the tank more due to the tank's higher base damage mod, as you've shown.

And I can always drops afterburner for confront on the scrapper. Brutes should have higher base mitigation values than they do and it should have been done at the same time as the tank damage buff but I accept that I have the minority view on that topic.

Were you doing any damage on top of the taunting?

I will never be one to deny that power creep in this game went off the rails long ago. Actually, right around the time the Inventions system was added. But it's easy to find a group to nullify you. I finally managed to get my tank killed by hitting the aggro cap of rularuu with a bunch of nasty chomping floating eyeballs present. It's not a question of what can we manage with fully IOed/Purpled/PvPed/T4 Incarnated/All passive accolades cranked up builds. The question is does equity exist? Many here believe it does because brutes are capable of near tank mitigation but that only occurs with massive incoming buffs from whatever source. I disagree because for vastly less "work" a tank can reach near brute damage output at or not at the cap.

When faceplanted, damage drops to zero. Tanks should not have a grossly exaggerated Toughness Advantage across the board when Brutes are only 10% faster on the damage front. For me, toughness always matters, so I can't agree that I'm constraining the discussion. I like to play this game at that edge. Why else would I love SR so much? It's often like the old blaster defiance. "Fine, get me closer to death! For I shall only become TOUGHER!" Sure. We could all go back to playing at +0/x1 and at that lvl, yes, absolutely a lot of this becomes amazingly moot. But most of us, I would hope at least, don't play there.

That's my problem, Doc... there's zero reason to roll up an SR brute. None. Zip. Nada. The mitigation values are so much ridiculously higher on the tank that losing a piddly 10% damage output doesn't come close to balancing the equation. Oh, unless you cherry pick the right team to get you to the caps, of course. Doesn't mean squat if you solo or don't have those kind of buffs. I did find and read a lot of that beta thread. Seems then as now, the majority response to the issue was a resounding "so what?" I did see one quote that filled me with dread concerning how claws and spines have always been broken in regards to aoe and that they'll "get looked at."

Base value for tank focused fighting: 18.5 Base value for brute/scrapper focused fighting: 13.88 Difference = 4.62 = 33.3% increase to the tank value over the brute/scrapper value Plus 25% more health which automatically equates to more regen as well. While the mitigation caps can be reached in some areas for brutes, fire damres for Fiery Armor, SL damres for Invul, and the HP cap might be hit for some with an HP buff, this is hardly common. My SR brute never sees the HP cap and sits at just over the normal positional softcap while the SR tank sits at the incarnate softcap all the time. The higher caps are nice but not in use nearly enough to be a factor in normal gameplay. I think I'd have more fun playing my brutes if I wasn't constantly aware that they're seriously getting the short end of the stick on this power balance. I'll go hunt it down. Find it a bit odd that in 36 pages some consensus was formed that this disparity in performance was considered just fine by the testers.

Nice info there, SM. Thanks. Here's round 2: Tank: 1: 424 2: 409 3: 415 4: 430 5: 438 Average: 423 Brute: 1: 393 2: 372 3: 426 4: 395 5: 396 Average: 396 93.6 that time Put the two runs together and we get the brute completing the task in 92.7% of the time it takes the tank. Yet, brutes have scrapper base mitigation values (75% that of a tank) but with 12% more base HP than scrappers. They have tank mitigation caps but tanks have 25% more base HP. Doesn't seem like the tank's comin out pretty far on top to anyone else in this deal? Do 10% less damage but be 33% (at least) tougher? Huh.

Round 2 numbers are faring a bit better for the tank. Average was 423. About to do the brute run. Don't think I was leveraging aggro as well on the tank's 1st run. And yes, hybrid assault core is in use for all of these. No insps, judgement or lore.

That was a tired reply. BZB Scrap is on beta and has been for a while. Haven't copied over the others yet and since I found a mission sim to use I just stayed on Excel.

Which explains the sucktacular scrapper times below. Stupid runners. Mission Sim Round 1: Tank: 1: 422 2: 453 3: 433 4: 423 5: 466 Average: 439 Brute: 1: 389 2: 414 3: 406 4: 423 5: 382 Average: 403 Scrapper: 1: 396 2: 410 3: 403 4: 405 5: 393 Average: 401