Bill Z Bubba

Here's the initial DA run for tank and brute. I agree with yall, though, that there are variables with this that we can avoid by using AE missions. Found Mission Simulator Arc ID 15873, ran it once in 8:43, will use that for round 2 of testing later today. Time starts at mission entrance, time ends at last enemy defeated, all mission clear all, max diff w/ bosses. Time are in seconds. No insps or lore pets used. BZB tank: Stop Tsoo: 628 Stop Tsoo: 509 Thin banished Pantheon: 625 Defat MOt's Chamipions: 666 Thin banished Pantheon: 430 Average: 572 BZB Brute: Stop Tsoo: 635 Stop Tsoo: 497 Rescue Knives: 660 Investigate Knives: 429 Stop Tsoo: 668 Average: 577

Because A: the concept that masterminds were supposed to be the redside tanks was as ridiculous back at go live as it is now and B: because it was all made even more meaningless with Going Rogue and the ability to create a tank, brute or scrapper on any side. The direct comparison between brutes and tanks is necessary now because it exists now. Masterminds? They have no place in this discussion.

Tanking LR is a datapoint. As is soloing max diff ITF or DA content. If one isn't looking at the entirety of the content when making decisions then one is doing it wrong. So those making the argument "but when teamed" or "but when using AT powerset" then they're wrong. I'm in this thread with datapoints. I use claws and sr as my generators of data points. I would be ecstatic if other players came in with other powerset combos doing the tests I'm doing so that more datapoints were in play.

One needs insps to survive in AE 801 content, the other does not. One can handle LR's aggro on a MLTF the other can't without faceplanting. Obviously, there's a an actual, observable difference between the mitigation values between the two ATs using the same powersets, and those differences must be taken into account when considering overall AT balance.

I have no issues with any of them. Obviously, I failed to grasp whatever point you're trying to make.

Drinking is a normal part of my existence, doubly so since the son graduated high school and triply so since the apocalypse landed on our heads and I've been 100% working from home.

I'm not concerned with what happens at the caps and I don't think any of us should be. I'm concerned with how the ATs perform while solo. Granted, this is an MMO, but that only means you CAN team... it doesn't mean you have to. When teamed, you can gather all manner of crazy ass buffs. You can hit the mitigation or damage caps. It depends solely on who you decide to team with. Quite frankly, though, that's damn near impossible to balance around unless you just gear your view based on the caps. And that's fine. Take that view into account. But if you ignore the solo values, then you don't actually give a shit about game balance.

But will they over a 5 mission spread for each AT? I think not.

2 DA missions down, 13 to go. Real question is whether I remain sober enough today to pull this off....

Again, not the topic at hand. Although I'll go ahead and time my scrapper since he exists and those three ATs are worthwhile to the discussion.

No, because this thread is about the current balance point between brutes and tanks.

The ITF isn't regular play? It is for me. I use it as my primary test for every character I have. Solo and teamed. Running into AVs isn't regular play? How do you think I get the passive accolades? That's not my definition but you will see MANY posters around here, even in this thread, imply that the game is balanced around SOs and therefore the average is balanced around SOs. Personally, I find that argument pretty much horseshit. *MY* average build is a mix of basic IOs and some sets. *MY* end builds are fully purpled, pvped, AT IOed, Wintered, ect and cranked to whatever balance I can find between damage output and mitigation.

Interesting and horribly wrong. The situation comes up every time I solo the ITF. Or STF. Or Maria's arc. In other words the situation comes up every time I run into an AV and monster or any other hard target. Nobody plays an "average character?" Really? So why are there threads about running TFs with SO only builds? Sounds like someone out there is running "average" builds.

LOL. Yea, no. I don't die against +1s on any of my BZBs. So being max diff with +3 incarnate shifts makes that crap a consistent cakewalk.

Now see... I like this. If that's the case, then the fury mechanic itself must be taken into account and adjusted for when attempting to balance the three ATs. My argument is that, currently, the three are NOT in balance. Granted, this is especially true when solo since brutes share tank caps but don't share tank base values. If brutes are supposed to be between tanks and scrappers, then they should be. They should do more damage than tanks and have better mitigation than scrappers in ALL areas of the game regardless of solo or team makeup.

Ok. So running, say, 5 DA repeatables from Ephram, knowing that I fight the same way on all three ATs, timing them, and comparing the time between the three ATs, would be a useful data point to you all?

You're a kind man. Sadly... I'm sick in the head enough to enjoy it.

Again, we're dealing with the same buff over the same amount of time. The decrease in DPS caused by having to fire off buildup, and the corresponding increase in DPS, is the same across the board in exactly the same way that having to use followup for that triple stack of +damage on focus is the same across all archetypes.

In this case, I'm only losing the set bonus from the 6th slot which means resistance to toxic and psi in 1 case or defense to psi in the other. Neither affect DPS.

Again, I can easily replace the chance for +toxic with a standard lvl 50 recred IO which will in turn reduce the number of times the proc from the purple set goes off. Would yall like to see this data? If not, I'd rather not spend another hour killin pylons....

Ummm, no. Not when I'm sitting between 95 and 100% fury while solo.

Doesn't that imply that if I'm nowhere near the caps, being solo and not using insps, that an 86% damage ratio seems a bit out of whack?

So back to "the game is balanced around SOs?" Ok, fine. Does a SOed brute have 66.67% the mitigation of a tank? Focused Fighting: Tank: 18.5% base + 60% (ignoring ED) = 29.6 Brute: 13.88 base + 60% (ignoring ED) = 22.208 Brute has 75% tank mitigation values. With health base at brute having 80% the HP of the tank. But the tank in actual gameplay is up to 86% the damage of the brute. So what are we actually going for here? Balanced around SOs or balanced around the actual game as played? Should the brute be sitting at the same base SO enhanced mitigation values as the scrapper when the brute is only pushing out 75% of the same damage?

But @Bopper that's at the caps. We don't live at the caps. Even on my brute farmer, combining insps to reds and eating them CONSTANTLY, I've seen the damage cap a handful of times. The same is easily said for teaming. I'm not running around at the mitigation caps all the time. And DEFINITELY not while solo.

Look... I'm not actually trying to get rid of the recent tank buffs. I just think if they're gonna be in play, thus drastically reducing the damage output difference between the two ATs, then perhaps the base mitigation values for brutes shouldn't be at scrapper levels and should instead be somewhere between scrappers and tanks.