Bill Z Bubba

And I can always drops afterburner for confront on the scrapper. Brutes should have higher base mitigation values than they do and it should have been done at the same time as the tank damage buff but I accept that I have the minority view on that topic.

Were you doing any damage on top of the taunting?

I will never be one to deny that power creep in this game went off the rails long ago. Actually, right around the time the Inventions system was added. But it's easy to find a group to nullify you. I finally managed to get my tank killed by hitting the aggro cap of rularuu with a bunch of nasty chomping floating eyeballs present. It's not a question of what can we manage with fully IOed/Purpled/PvPed/T4 Incarnated/All passive accolades cranked up builds. The question is does equity exist? Many here believe it does because brutes are capable of near tank mitigation but that only occurs with massive incoming buffs from whatever source. I disagree because for vastly less "work" a tank can reach near brute damage output at or not at the cap.

When faceplanted, damage drops to zero. Tanks should not have a grossly exaggerated Toughness Advantage across the board when Brutes are only 10% faster on the damage front. For me, toughness always matters, so I can't agree that I'm constraining the discussion. I like to play this game at that edge. Why else would I love SR so much? It's often like the old blaster defiance. "Fine, get me closer to death! For I shall only become TOUGHER!" Sure. We could all go back to playing at +0/x1 and at that lvl, yes, absolutely a lot of this becomes amazingly moot. But most of us, I would hope at least, don't play there.

That's my problem, Doc... there's zero reason to roll up an SR brute. None. Zip. Nada. The mitigation values are so much ridiculously higher on the tank that losing a piddly 10% damage output doesn't come close to balancing the equation. Oh, unless you cherry pick the right team to get you to the caps, of course. Doesn't mean squat if you solo or don't have those kind of buffs. I did find and read a lot of that beta thread. Seems then as now, the majority response to the issue was a resounding "so what?" I did see one quote that filled me with dread concerning how claws and spines have always been broken in regards to aoe and that they'll "get looked at."

Base value for tank focused fighting: 18.5 Base value for brute/scrapper focused fighting: 13.88 Difference = 4.62 = 33.3% increase to the tank value over the brute/scrapper value Plus 25% more health which automatically equates to more regen as well. While the mitigation caps can be reached in some areas for brutes, fire damres for Fiery Armor, SL damres for Invul, and the HP cap might be hit for some with an HP buff, this is hardly common. My SR brute never sees the HP cap and sits at just over the normal positional softcap while the SR tank sits at the incarnate softcap all the time. The higher caps are nice but not in use nearly enough to be a factor in normal gameplay. I think I'd have more fun playing my brutes if I wasn't constantly aware that they're seriously getting the short end of the stick on this power balance. I'll go hunt it down. Find it a bit odd that in 36 pages some consensus was formed that this disparity in performance was considered just fine by the testers.

Nice info there, SM. Thanks. Here's round 2: Tank: 1: 424 2: 409 3: 415 4: 430 5: 438 Average: 423 Brute: 1: 393 2: 372 3: 426 4: 395 5: 396 Average: 396 93.6 that time Put the two runs together and we get the brute completing the task in 92.7% of the time it takes the tank. Yet, brutes have scrapper base mitigation values (75% that of a tank) but with 12% more base HP than scrappers. They have tank mitigation caps but tanks have 25% more base HP. Doesn't seem like the tank's comin out pretty far on top to anyone else in this deal? Do 10% less damage but be 33% (at least) tougher? Huh.

Round 2 numbers are faring a bit better for the tank. Average was 423. About to do the brute run. Don't think I was leveraging aggro as well on the tank's 1st run. And yes, hybrid assault core is in use for all of these. No insps, judgement or lore.

That was a tired reply. BZB Scrap is on beta and has been for a while. Haven't copied over the others yet and since I found a mission sim to use I just stayed on Excel.

Which explains the sucktacular scrapper times below. Stupid runners. Mission Sim Round 1: Tank: 1: 422 2: 453 3: 433 4: 423 5: 466 Average: 439 Brute: 1: 389 2: 414 3: 406 4: 423 5: 382 Average: 403 Scrapper: 1: 396 2: 410 3: 403 4: 405 5: 393 Average: 401

I'm not on beta. But I guess I can be.

I have already proven that this is completely false.

Gorram it. Suddenly mission ID 15873 is no longer available after I finished my tank run. WTF. I've contacted the mission owner to see if they'll republish as it was.

So why did my group run a max diff all troller/dom ITF the other night and have absolutely zero issues burning right through it? Regardless, that line of thinking also does not belong in the current discussion. This discussion is 100% about whether an AT with tank caps but scrapper base levels for their mitigation powers should be seeing that other AT with much higher base mitigation levels be doing damn near equivalent damage output. This is CoH. No AT is needed for anything to get the job done.

You are not even remotely wrong.

The claim comes from the theory that if tanks are dishing out nearly brute level damage with vastly superior mitigation then why should anyone ever roll a brute? Barring being able to skip the T1 attack power as @Apparitionso correctly noted. But dude... most of the time in high end builds the T1 can just be left unslotted/unused and ignored.

How about I don't want years of brutes being useless?

That is precisely where this all started. If I am providing content where the tank is immortal but the brute isn't when neither is fighting back, then we should be at a place where the brute's supposed higher damage output will carry the day. So far, I'm not seeing that. If we are now in a situation where the tank is leveling faster from 1 to 50 at base diff (or really, at any diff at which both can survive) than the brute, then can we all agree that something is very wrong?

I can see that but destiny is the only difference. Brute/Scrapper use barrier core, tank uses rebirth core.

Builds: All passive accolades exist on all three. Musc Core, Assault Core and Degen Core are in use. Assault is clicked when up for all runs. Other incarnate powers are T4ed on all three but not used. Tank: http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1484&c=689&a=1378&f=HEX&dc=78DA8594CB4F534114C6E7B6F75AFA400A85F2288596575B0A9716F001054C9047449A20A00B1343AE38D4C6A634BD1861E9D2AD26BA3122C6950BFF07FF095F2CDDB8E1E12BD1553DBDDF093674E14DDBDFCC3767E69B73666ED3DB339EB7F30F2F09C573396798E6DAAA91BF278B5ADAC864D7053D35D337A74365D1419D2046D766E486CC9B525FB95FA0DEB2DCC8C96D6936F0685AE6A4D469B907A6702D6D6EE6F495829477DC56732E97CDDCDDAA45BBDCCCE6331EABB7288D02757CB385ECBA3E9B97C5CCCE5ADA30B76471A785BC63F4BDE0A71FA5BCAD925D78A9915485CD079E69045D4DE0F388E0A7441F7AC4459AADF06CE53FB35FD06C3B666BF688CDD2D4283306D6F48367E3CC77449F2AC6C947838FD0C2C21AEBA2F239A0298E7859738A1AA69BC69CBC536737E227680D37E235F7A1DDD23C47CC63D0FB8DF91D6CF801EED2DE6B79BD5A137B7B495A1DE7533706AD611C6C4B81ED1360CF24734FB598A2BDD473DDEAE7E0D137CF5C0007AF827BE4E3B38EA8A4F9DE436BFCC0FC08B67F027B3E8303FBE018F934C1C7D6C439F771CE11CE7592629A39A6996322A7626C54CF56CEBFD53A793B2901AE66E027A23A7E81E1DFCC3F9CC930B36C1354C52BCA28C8950B0EA2321D3A73080C27C08124F3112AA7926F2757AE936F5C886F5C886F5C886FDC1465D6C5B7A66B10B7E03579F7B277EF08D68E8D32CF81FDE799C3CC2FF0F69377942B150D20A7187B26D97397E438572A1E87E71BBA3A3AD74A0F63DED0146A31B4408C10BF424F1E30AF4077926782D74BB047BB7AFA3D8CA9276F71A9BF6A3451A524AB94912A65B44A59AC545204875D2CA96C4C9A624539BD27EF79E9C075F2FF20143E81A37F9AA65C4346FE65B06D05EC5E655E67DE000F2BD78B62BD6357C57FD0639C98FF09D8F294F90C5C72597BB7F676ABA26D54B46F57B4FF028FB0E6DF Brute: http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1531&c=713&a=1426&f=HEX&dc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crapper: http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1554&c=716&a=1432&f=HEX&dc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

Specifically I'm arguing that current tank damage is so high in comparison to brutes, that brute mitigation has now become ridiculously too low. Some here are saying that's fine. I'm not one of those people. I'd probably be fine with the damage comparison if I was *consistently* running around on my brute with 86% of the mitigation of the tank. But we both know I'm not. In any case, the tank's 1st run on that same map as earlier was 14:44. 968 seconds for the brute. 884 seconds for the tank. I will of course do several more runs each to get a fair average. For the record, the tank never had to use his destiny power. He only had to get out of the end sapping patches. The brute was firing off barrier every time it was up. If you aren't seeing a pretty ridiculous unfair advantage to the tank at this point... I'm not sure what to say. But I will go run the Mission Simulator, 10 times each at +2/x8 w/ bosses as requested. This will give us a more accurate representation of ONLY the damage output over time. And then we can discuss how grossly unfair the existing damage to mitigation ratio is between tanks and brutes.

I think I've dealt with that variable. The map I'm using killed both the scrapper and the brute with them just sitting in an aggro cap while the tank was barely being touched. This means that the extra effort to stay alive will play a important role in the testing as it just took my brute 16:08 to clear the map and some of that time was used up by running away to avoid death. If we find that the tank grossly surpasses the kill speed of the brute because it never has to run away.... well, that's pretty dang relevant in my opinion. Checking that now.

I thought of the same missions but they are rather long and I'd have to find a sweet spot where any of the three aren't immortal but where the scrapper doesn't get trounced as soon as he walks in the door. My initial choice for my enemy faction is already a failure. BZB scrap is immortal at max diff. 😞 Ideas for a good enemy group that has a chance to kill all three but not completely wax them off the map like... Rularuu? Looks like incarnate BP might do the trick. May even have to drop below max diff. Edit 2: This'll work. Tank is immortal at max diff but brute and scrapper are not. And we're only getting 1 lvl shift so they're at true +3.

Zero. Came close a time or two on the brute but nothin a quick jaunt around a corner to let his native regen do its thing didn't get me past. Next test will tell us more since I won't be using any click incarnate abilities nor insps and will be fighting +3s since I'll only have the 1 incarnate shift. Might be making my own test mission, though. The one I found was built specifically for timing damage output and tells us nothing about survival.

I'm comparing archetypes, not your opinions on what AT was supposed to do what. I don't care that someone once said "masterminds are redside tanks and/or damage sponges." We never played it like that. Because it was dumb. They are a pet/buff archetype and of zero relevance when comparing damage/mitigation and mitigation/damage archetypes. I'm comparing 3 ATs with shared powersets. It doesn't matter what combo I choose to use (nor do I give a shit what you think of claws, so you can shove the snide insults) as I'm not concerned with the testing of the powersets. I'm concerned with testing the variations and equity regarding how the AT modifiers and/or inherents have left them since the last round of tank buffs. This is why I'm using the same combo with practically identical builds. Tanks could solo without any difficulty before they got buffed. Obviously, the devs felt that you are wrong and further study was necessary.