Bill Z Bubba

I'm not on beta. But I guess I can be.

I have already proven that this is completely false.

Gorram it. Suddenly mission ID 15873 is no longer available after I finished my tank run. WTF. I've contacted the mission owner to see if they'll republish as it was.

So why did my group run a max diff all troller/dom ITF the other night and have absolutely zero issues burning right through it? Regardless, that line of thinking also does not belong in the current discussion. This discussion is 100% about whether an AT with tank caps but scrapper base levels for their mitigation powers should be seeing that other AT with much higher base mitigation levels be doing damn near equivalent damage output. This is CoH. No AT is needed for anything to get the job done.

You are not even remotely wrong.

The claim comes from the theory that if tanks are dishing out nearly brute level damage with vastly superior mitigation then why should anyone ever roll a brute? Barring being able to skip the T1 attack power as @Apparitionso correctly noted. But dude... most of the time in high end builds the T1 can just be left unslotted/unused and ignored.

How about I don't want years of brutes being useless?

That is precisely where this all started. If I am providing content where the tank is immortal but the brute isn't when neither is fighting back, then we should be at a place where the brute's supposed higher damage output will carry the day. So far, I'm not seeing that. If we are now in a situation where the tank is leveling faster from 1 to 50 at base diff (or really, at any diff at which both can survive) than the brute, then can we all agree that something is very wrong?

I can see that but destiny is the only difference. Brute/Scrapper use barrier core, tank uses rebirth core.

Builds: All passive accolades exist on all three. Musc Core, Assault Core and Degen Core are in use. Assault is clicked when up for all runs. Other incarnate powers are T4ed on all three but not used. Tank: http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1484&c=689&a=1378&f=HEX&dc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rute: http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1531&c=713&a=1426&f=HEX&dc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crapper: http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1554&c=716&a=1432&f=HEX&dc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

Specifically I'm arguing that current tank damage is so high in comparison to brutes, that brute mitigation has now become ridiculously too low. Some here are saying that's fine. I'm not one of those people. I'd probably be fine with the damage comparison if I was *consistently* running around on my brute with 86% of the mitigation of the tank. But we both know I'm not. In any case, the tank's 1st run on that same map as earlier was 14:44. 968 seconds for the brute. 884 seconds for the tank. I will of course do several more runs each to get a fair average. For the record, the tank never had to use his destiny power. He only had to get out of the end sapping patches. The brute was firing off barrier every time it was up. If you aren't seeing a pretty ridiculous unfair advantage to the tank at this point... I'm not sure what to say. But I will go run the Mission Simulator, 10 times each at +2/x8 w/ bosses as requested. This will give us a more accurate representation of ONLY the damage output over time. And then we can discuss how grossly unfair the existing damage to mitigation ratio is between tanks and brutes.

I think I've dealt with that variable. The map I'm using killed both the scrapper and the brute with them just sitting in an aggro cap while the tank was barely being touched. This means that the extra effort to stay alive will play a important role in the testing as it just took my brute 16:08 to clear the map and some of that time was used up by running away to avoid death. If we find that the tank grossly surpasses the kill speed of the brute because it never has to run away.... well, that's pretty dang relevant in my opinion. Checking that now.

I thought of the same missions but they are rather long and I'd have to find a sweet spot where any of the three aren't immortal but where the scrapper doesn't get trounced as soon as he walks in the door. My initial choice for my enemy faction is already a failure. BZB scrap is immortal at max diff. 😞 Ideas for a good enemy group that has a chance to kill all three but not completely wax them off the map like... Rularuu? Looks like incarnate BP might do the trick. May even have to drop below max diff. Edit 2: This'll work. Tank is immortal at max diff but brute and scrapper are not. And we're only getting 1 lvl shift so they're at true +3.

Zero. Came close a time or two on the brute but nothin a quick jaunt around a corner to let his native regen do its thing didn't get me past. Next test will tell us more since I won't be using any click incarnate abilities nor insps and will be fighting +3s since I'll only have the 1 incarnate shift. Might be making my own test mission, though. The one I found was built specifically for timing damage output and tells us nothing about survival.

I'm comparing archetypes, not your opinions on what AT was supposed to do what. I don't care that someone once said "masterminds are redside tanks and/or damage sponges." We never played it like that. Because it was dumb. They are a pet/buff archetype and of zero relevance when comparing damage/mitigation and mitigation/damage archetypes. I'm comparing 3 ATs with shared powersets. It doesn't matter what combo I choose to use (nor do I give a shit what you think of claws, so you can shove the snide insults) as I'm not concerned with the testing of the powersets. I'm concerned with testing the variations and equity regarding how the AT modifiers and/or inherents have left them since the last round of tank buffs. This is why I'm using the same combo with practically identical builds. Tanks could solo without any difficulty before they got buffed. Obviously, the devs felt that you are wrong and further study was necessary.

Here's the initial DA run for tank and brute. I agree with yall, though, that there are variables with this that we can avoid by using AE missions. Found Mission Simulator Arc ID 15873, ran it once in 8:43, will use that for round 2 of testing later today. Time starts at mission entrance, time ends at last enemy defeated, all mission clear all, max diff w/ bosses. Time are in seconds. No insps or lore pets used. BZB tank: Stop Tsoo: 628 Stop Tsoo: 509 Thin banished Pantheon: 625 Defat MOt's Chamipions: 666 Thin banished Pantheon: 430 Average: 572 BZB Brute: Stop Tsoo: 635 Stop Tsoo: 497 Rescue Knives: 660 Investigate Knives: 429 Stop Tsoo: 668 Average: 577

Because A: the concept that masterminds were supposed to be the redside tanks was as ridiculous back at go live as it is now and B: because it was all made even more meaningless with Going Rogue and the ability to create a tank, brute or scrapper on any side. The direct comparison between brutes and tanks is necessary now because it exists now. Masterminds? They have no place in this discussion.

Tanking LR is a datapoint. As is soloing max diff ITF or DA content. If one isn't looking at the entirety of the content when making decisions then one is doing it wrong. So those making the argument "but when teamed" or "but when using AT powerset" then they're wrong. I'm in this thread with datapoints. I use claws and sr as my generators of data points. I would be ecstatic if other players came in with other powerset combos doing the tests I'm doing so that more datapoints were in play.

One needs insps to survive in AE 801 content, the other does not. One can handle LR's aggro on a MLTF the other can't without faceplanting. Obviously, there's a an actual, observable difference between the mitigation values between the two ATs using the same powersets, and those differences must be taken into account when considering overall AT balance.

I have no issues with any of them. Obviously, I failed to grasp whatever point you're trying to make.

Drinking is a normal part of my existence, doubly so since the son graduated high school and triply so since the apocalypse landed on our heads and I've been 100% working from home.

I'm not concerned with what happens at the caps and I don't think any of us should be. I'm concerned with how the ATs perform while solo. Granted, this is an MMO, but that only means you CAN team... it doesn't mean you have to. When teamed, you can gather all manner of crazy ass buffs. You can hit the mitigation or damage caps. It depends solely on who you decide to team with. Quite frankly, though, that's damn near impossible to balance around unless you just gear your view based on the caps. And that's fine. Take that view into account. But if you ignore the solo values, then you don't actually give a shit about game balance.

But will they over a 5 mission spread for each AT? I think not.

2 DA missions down, 13 to go. Real question is whether I remain sober enough today to pull this off....

Again, not the topic at hand. Although I'll go ahead and time my scrapper since he exists and those three ATs are worthwhile to the discussion.