tidge

I really miss the option to disable XP and earn Inf, specifically because I would do this at low levels to get that at-launch feel. Sadly, this option made it too easy to earn ridiculous amounts of Influence with even less effort than it takes today... so I accept that I simply must disable XP.

I get ya both. I know I have a very different opinion about the Swarm Missiles (old v. new), and I think it is partially because I was trying some radically different things and partially because my builds and play style (for 3 tiers of bots) were (possibly) nearly perfectly aligned to slide into those changes.... so I saw no real reduction in performance in the latter case, and tremendous improvement in the previous, oddball choices case. It's not like I expect a lot of players to Ouro the first Montague arc with just one robot at x8. The only thing I couldn't (reliably) do any more after that round of robotic changes is solo Giant Monsters in Peregrine Island... but that is because I refuse to have a build with compromises for the purpose of keeping the GMs from running into each other. The Giant Monster ToHit Buffs has seriously crimped certain GM fights, noticeably Lusca, but that came later.

I knew I could get you two to make nice :)

I can only write for myself: I want to know why you insist on believe things that are actually not true. There are a handful of other posters, only a few of whom flood the suggestions forum, that post hard-to-believe comments... but FWIW, those users have demonstrated to the courtesy of explaining why(*) they post what they do. (*) For example: Some don't like to play above level 25. Some think the game was best at Issue 1. <- I disagree with these, but at least I know how to interpret their posts. In this case... the claim "level 49 powers cannot have 6 slots" is so specifically wrong, and was doubled down on, it had to come from somewhere.

Since this is the MM forum:...I don't think Robotics got nerfed when it was changed, minimally: Maintenance Drone is a godsend. Knockback was all but eliminated from henchmen attacks. Those two changes radically upped performance. One slot (KB->KD) was freed from each tier; Robots became less of a micro-management issue with the healing drone. Also at this time, the levels we could get the higher-tier powers was lowered. Who Will Die #1 went from 15 minutes on a MM to under 7 (like every other AT). I don't think the henchmen losing -regen or the change to Swarm Missiles was that big a deal. The biggest change I noticed was that I could no longer go AFK on a Giant Monster and find that the henches had defeated them without me pressing a single button. I already had 2 Rifle attacks in my build, and I'd "solved" all endurance issues (for the MM, for the Henchmen) so it isn't like I had to change my build or playstyle (except for that 'going AFK' option was off the table. My play in content with fewer henchmen improved.

On my full-kit build(*1), I didn't notice much of a performance reduction in Incarnate+3 content (so, 'even level'). Everything takes slightly longer, or the same. From my testing, the biggest performance change was against the level-less Giant Monsters. These will be harder solo; I don't expect multiboxers to have any issues, unless they are super lazy. (*1) Robotic/Traps MM, that I've basically tuned for "whatever" content. That is... it was built long ago to debuff enemies, keep aggro on the MM and to pour damage where needed. Put another way: I can change playstyle enough that this build works in a realtively wide variety of content. The other builds on teh same character are now "silly" ideas like having only one henchmen or no henchmen at all. I have other MMs I like less that have alternate builds for different content because they need them.

Based on the comments in another thread, I think what is happening is that the "player" is "playing MIDS" (or an old version of the character builder) that doesn't allow the level 49 power to get more than 3 slots added to it. I don't use MIDS, nor do I have it installed, so I can't tell if this is still the case. Needless to add: Even if MIDS has this behavior, there is no reason to not simply readjust the order of picked powers (in MIDS) to make the slotting work. Even taking all 5 epic powers and 6 slotting each of them should be possible. It is left as an exercise to the reader to come up with a realistic set of power choices that does that, and still requires more than 4 slots in the level 49 power. There should always be at least one power pick that can be delayed (for MIDS purposes) that has fewer than 5 slots.

I find this to be true about most set bonuses, even outside of this MM proposal. Global Recharge is the obvious "best choice"... even setting aside PPM formulae, that it becomes possible to effectively match Hasten should be recognized as enormous. Global Accuracy is probably next best, since it alleviates certain slotting pressures and is what makes facing elevated enemy levels possible. After this? It is varying degrees of "how much do I need?" (from set bonuses) +Recovery and +MaxEnd, %+End are always high priorities for me, because the blue bar is the player's economic wallet. Healing and HP are usually solid choices, but these need to be supported by 'just right' amounts of regeneration and scaling resistances, etc. I haven't really worried about typed resistances from set bonuses since Live. Some folks still talk about a "Psi Hole" in Invulnerability, and I find the math behind "that last 5% of Resistance cuts damage taken IN HALF" to be slightly disingenuous when tied to claims about overall survivability. having written the above... I don't agree with @Neiska overall premise about the downward trajectory of HC Fire Farming 'taking a hit" was purely a side effect of well-motivated changes to the way different attack types work. Titan Weapons... and Plant Control had well-motivated changes due to rather clear over-performance. Plant Control certainly made it near-impossible to design new control sets because of the original Seeds of Confusion being far too good for its level. Rune of Protection falls into an interesting category... it wasn't originally a very well-considered power, now it seems much more believable as a pool power The Robot changes. I'm not really a fan, but my build wasn't really effected. Playing only the T3 used to be terribly painful, not so much now. The Tanker changes were good... but the scale back was IMO poorly motivated. MMV.

I finished up the Dark Astoria Heather Townshend arc at +3x8 (so even level in Incarnate). Clear all with no Lore pets and no active use of Hybrid. M3: both took 17 minutes, but on Live I stopped 3 times to dump recipes! [I realized this was going to skew results, but I wanted that Purple recipe drop on Live :)] M4: both took 11 minutes, with the only noticeable difference being on Beta, one of the final creatures necessary to defeat flew away at light-speed and went farther than I have ever seen an enemy go in this mission... up the hill and past the next room. This probably cost 15-30 seconds.

I think it is more likely that some old MMs may be dusted off for some new content, but the currently planned MM changes on Beta are about as "hold steady" in terms of intent as could be (while still making some radical changes). There aren't any new MM sets, and the change to the T7 powers is not likely to inspire anyone to respec/reslot. I get the point about Group Fly, anecdotally my own testing with Group Fly on Beta makes the MM slightly more difficult to use than the same build on Live, for same content. This is pure anecdote: Group Fly can be somewhat clumsy to use now, but on Live I had a few more instances of "bad Group Fly behavior"(*1) than I typically experience on Live. (*1) Stuff like: Henchmen simply "stopping", henchmen getting "stuck", Henchmen feeling like they are 'close enough' but actually out of the fight. These things happen on Live of course and aren't being addressed as part of the planned update.

Is this why you don't know that a respec can put +5 slots in a level 49 power? I don't use MIDS, but one of the long ago precursor efforts didn't allow for more than +3 slots going into a level 49 power.

I'm having trouble writing this with a straight face... but having the level 49 pick be available instead at level 48 would address the specific cornball concern of not being able to put 6 slots in the last power pick (without using a respec).

Is this WIA? +MaxHP boosts (from set bonuses) are showing the same amount of net HP for each tier of henchmen. This was checked while standing in Dark Astoria.

Here are some BETA stats on what my Robotic henchmen are getting (in Supremacy range): +32.54 Hit points [I thought this would be different for each tier (because of base HP differences), but it shows as the same] +4.14 MaxEnd +19.23 ToHit (so final is 77.23, 9.23 is coming from Tactics, 10% from supremacy) +6% Accuracy bonus +28% Damage (Supremacy is 25%, so basically nothing) -6.9% Endurance Discount Resistance boosts from sets never approaches 3% Defense boosts from sets are nil, except for +1.5% AoE (and half that for F/C)

I understand the caution, but with crummier ToHit over most of the content range, I don't know how anyone could believe MMs would come to dominate any content. It's not as if the damage dealing 'nukes' have inherently lower base accuracies to prevent those ATs from dominating. From memory, it is pretty much only the AoE controls that tend to get worse base accuracies.

Some more testing, Beta v. Live Heather Townshend's Dark Astoria Arc, at +3 (so net +0, given the Incarnate Shift. Defeat All. No Lore pets used. M1: I had different maps. Beta 11 minutes, Live 9 minutes. I got killed on Beta, but I was answering someone in chat... so hard to take anything from this one M2: Beta 9 mins, live 7 mins. Spawns were slightly moved but same total number. The last two maps are always the same (modulo clicky placement) so those should give a few more data points.

Yeah I see that... but I play a LOT against level-less giant monsters, which you recognize is not accounted for in the math. I should add... I don't question the "supremacy below level 22/23/24", I question why ABOVE level 22/23/24 there is a base ToHit decrease. Yes I know about level differences, so I am testing some Incarnate content time differences right now.

About ^this^.... Because that first upgrade power comes at level 6, and two of the three tiers of henchmen come after level 6, I long ago proposed: 1) Alter the core powers of the T1, T2, T3 summons to include the effects of the Level 6 power. City of Data pretty much shows how they are coded.... just drop the "grant" powers and bake in the powers granted. I can't imagine anyone playing with all three tiers NOT taking that power. The difference between Level 1 and Level 6 is so miniscule that no one should worry about "game balance" by boosting the T1 "for free" Applying the first upgrade is about as literal a "going through the motions" power as can be imagined. 2) Replace the level 6 upgrade with a thematic (for primary) summonable, recharge-intensive pet (not a henchman) that can accept those globals that otherwise restrict henchmen & pet slotting options provides a slight buff (while alive, can vary by primary) to the henchmen... think +ToHit, +Absorb, whatever... This way, the power sort-of does what it always was intended to do... but can also free up slots in the henchmen (or similar powers, like Gang War) so that we have more options for Henchmen slotting. I think it is completely reasonable to require the second upgrade, since there is a big difference in game balance between level 6 and level 26. However: I want to note that some of the rationale presented for the Beta ultimate ToHit nerf kicking in at level 22 is because "the game is hard for MMs below level 22 but not hard for MMs after that"... despite the HUGE amount of experience required to get from level 22 to 50 compared to the XP to get from 1 to 22.

In my experience: ATs don't begin to feel different from each other until level 10+ A slightly more difficult issue for me to judge (since I pretty much always level up by playing content) is if the level 50 build (using better enhancement pieces, and re-ordering powers) will have a big impact on my appreciation for the character. For example: I have a War Mace scrapper that I kinda like... but without the Global Recharge available at level 50, I found it really hard to enjoy.

I'm not as sour on the proposed changes, and I'm sensitive that TPTB are focusing on some balance areas... but my general sense is that the parts of the game that are being considered exhibiting tunnel vision. In particular, there are some rationales tossed about "but better for MMs below level 22, and btw can we get some pylon tests or +5 content tests?" I'm not surprised about the tunnel vision, we had a crazy amount of rethink/rejiggering of Tanks because solo 50+ Tankers could finish some x8 content on average ~10 seconds faster than a Brute could finish. Heaven help us if a MM posted times close to those! A simple example (hypothetical on my part)... Thesis: Eliminate the level shift for (multiple) henchmen Outcomes: Henchmen are not as easily hit by the level foes being faced by the MM, and they no longer have -ToHit adjustments due to level shift Simple adjustment 1: reduce henchmen HP. Unintended consequence 1: This was recognized as being somewhat out of alignment with how players actually USE henchmen, which is primarily in Bodyguard mode. Simple adjustment 2: reduce henchmen base ToHit and damage Unintended Consequence 2: Against level-less it is a big loss, against up to +3, toHit is something of a wash, but when the henches do hit they do less.... so obvious performance hit. I understand... TPTB don't want MMs cakewalking through certain content, even if it is well recognized that some other ATs can do exactly that. Writing only for myself: despite playing a MM every day, I don't think I'll ever roll up another MM. Most of it has to do with a general lack of variety when it comes to character theme. How many more Master/Mistress/Boss of _____ does the game need? When the Clowns are released... sure that would be funny, but I'd still have to play it, and MMs can be tedious to play, and not because of the "level shift". There is a small part of my mind that looks at new secondaries and wonders how OP I could make them... but again, I'd have to PLAY them and having/measuring OP characters doesn't really appeal to me.

Honestly, this is the best strategy. My personal assessment of the fraction of things folks complain about (for MMs) are 80% addressable by choices (power selection, slotting, playstyles),, 19% by adjusting expectations, with 1% (or less) in the category of something that absolutely effects performance, but at a near-trivial level. I don't think anyone cares if my level 50 MM takes 20% longer to finished a x8 mission on Beta, because the changes are motivated by a hypothetical concern about MM players suffering in +3 (or higher) content. MM's already can play Incarnate content at +3 with no henchmen level shift, so it is a legitimate head-scratcher why eliminating the level shift in non-Incarnate content was seen requiring henchmen nerfs. The set bonuses for henchs... that's nice, but it feels like being offered a kiss on the cheek after a slap to the face. At least offer a little bit of tongue!

For my Robotics/Traps MM (which I use daily): I will probably only respec to change the order of certain powers... I have Tough and Weave that I almost never toggle on so I may as well move those to 47 and 49. My 3-bot build already includes more set bonuses than many others typically suggest... I don't rely on %damage in any of the MM attacks.... so I've got a number of set bonuses that other players may not have. I chose the set bonuses to improve the MM, so those bonuses generally transfer well to the henchmen (even at 40%). Each tier of henchmen is slotted somewhere north of +60% Accuracy, and I run Tactics... so the ToHit nerfs hit my full-kit less hard than other players may experience. My testing on Beta in (mostly) even-level content showed that content takes me roughly 20% (max) longer to complete, even if I don't lose henchmen. If the T1/T2 HP nerf continues to be eliminated I am less worried about survivability. I've done some testing on Live where I play typical content with only two of the three T1s, and my completion times are on the order of 20% longer... which I'm not sure is the intention of the Beta changes, but it does appear to be the outcome. I can't see that there is much I can do with my slotting to improve the performance of that MM: I considered adding Assault (for more henchmen damage) but I don't really have a power I am comfortable swapping out, especially with the ToHit penalties. If the ToHit nerf is reconsidered (and I don't think it will be, because it is a mathematical argument with limited consideration) I'd swap out Tactics for Assault. The MM ATO slotting changes have no effect on this build; Maintenance Drone is 6xPreventive Maintenance and thus it will ever be. If I ever franken-slot it I wouldn't be putting MM ATO pieces in it. There is a slight chance that opt for slotting a different set in one of my MM attacks. I don't have any +Accuracy bonuses from purples sets so if I end up believing that the henchmen need a little more +Accuracy, I might make such a change.

At the risk of revealing my own 'weird assumptions' The LotG set (and its precious global for +Recharge) is trivially easy IMO to find one-slot powers to use. The Concealment pool is chock full of such powers, and its Infiltration can be used to slot a couple of different nice globals from travel sets as well... unslotters are cheap. Hide certainly fits the bill, but I pretty much always first slot the Kismet +ToHit piece in Hide to improve leveling performance. By level 50, the extra ToHit is not always necessary (based on Accuracy slotting and set bonuses), but I rarely give it up if I'll be playing 'Hard' content. Stalkers can get a snipe, so extra +ToHit increases the damage of the (Fast) Snipe. Health? If there is no other candidate power for the Preventive Maintenance%Absrob, I guess it could go there... but because that piece doesn't need to be in an active power I almost never slot it there. I find the set bonuses from Panacea to be somewhat useful in powers that take Health sets. There is another piece of common wisdom about Health slotting that I almost never follow: Triple-slotting the Panacea, Miracle, and Numina global pieces in Health. By the time the Numina piece can be slotted, the character should probably have already addressed recovery/regeneration/endurance. The few times I slot the Numina's piece there, it is usually because I can use slightly more regeneration, so I slot it with the Numina Health/Absorb piece (and drop Miracle). This is rare for me, as MOAR Regeneration is typically not noticeable; I make exceptions on high HP characters and characters that primarily rely on resistances for survival (and the primary/secondary sets aren't already providing enough Regeneration).