Werner

I’m away from the computer so can’t see or post builds, but have a look at The Tank Gods thread. There’s a lot of discussion, then at some point it morphs into a soloing the ITF thread, with a typical difficulty in the thread being +4x8 no temporary powers, no inspirations, no deaths, enemies buffed. Some runs were also player debuffed and/or further restrictions. Some runs were for time. I think some builds were posted. I posted my SD/MA that did it. If you’re just looking for the hardcore ITF builds, probably start at the end and work back, but I remember it being an interesting thread start to end. I suppose one thing to consider is that the best Tanker builds for soloing the ITF on extreme settings won’t necessarily be the best Tanker build for running it with others. Still, it’s probably a great starting point.

I realize now that I’ve been neglecting 801. I need to see how much I can crawl up the scale on my SD/MA. I also wanted to try speed running 801.2, but hadn’t gotten to it. Maybe it’s time for me to start defaulting to 801 instead of ITF when I want to hop on solo and play for a few hours. That doesn’t answer your question at all, and I play no inspirations so I’ll never make it to 801.A I’m sure, but every time I hear 801 I get all excited and grateful so I had to post anyway. 😉

Since I joined the forums in I'm guessing 2006, there are two questions that have come up frequently that I think are closely related: What should we exclude when evaluating a set's performance? What should we exclude when bragging about our accomplishments with a build? I recognize that these are technically not the same question, but I feel like historically they've been answered the same way, and I personally feel more comfortable when they are, so I'll probably confuse them for each other for the rest of this post. But yeah, not the same question. I know. Anyway, by the time I joined the forums, there was already a consensus answer to these questions, and a consensus yardstick for measuring performance - the Rikti War Zone Challenge. Go to the Rikti War Zone and solo a spawn of Rikti 4 levels higher than you that includes 3 bosses. The restrictions were: No temporary powers No inspirations No external buffs No base empowerment buffs No splitting up the spawn No deaths and resurrections The general philosophy behind the Rikti War Zone Challenge Rules was that what was of most interest was not our performance in how the game was typically played, but rather in a sort of worst case scenario - all our teammates were dead, we'd already burned every inspiration we had, our buffs had worn off, GO. And following that general philosophy, all builds were legal - take any powers you want, slot any enhancements you want. These are actual builds, even if being played with more restrictions than typical play. The possibly-weak relative performance of Regeneration was then, as now, a topic of discussion. Regeneration had not yet beaten this challenge, and many seemed to believe that it wasn't possible. I was intrigued, and with some practice, I was able to beat the challenge with my Katana/Regeneration Scrapper. And that led me to make my first forum post ever, proving the Regeneration naysayers wrong - at least if anyone would believe a first time poster. As I recall though, they did believe me. That was nice. Time passed, and we started calling these the Scrapper Challenge Rules, and we were applying them to other challenges, such as soloing AVs. Yes, you could solo an AV with inspirations, and of course you did technically solo an AV, but we we wouldn't give you much credit for doing so unless you'd followed the Scrapper Challenge Rules. When invention origin enhancements came out, I don't remember it being controversial when we allowed them in such challenges. Including them matched the underlying philosophy - your actual build in a specific worst case scenario. Disallowing inspiration use is arguably particularly silly for longer-duration challenges, where the inspirations are going to fall like rain and the long-duration will make sure that performance averages out, that nobody benefits more than anyone else from some lucky drops. But we stuck with it and kept the same rules for all challenges as I recall. But though history may provide an answer to our questions, it of course doesn't tell us whether or not it is the best answer, only that it was once a historical consensus. And some of us were around back then, and followed that consensus religiously, and have been for 15+ years, making us a bit old and set in our ways, and prone to yelling at the kids to get off our lawn if they propose handling things differently, such as with the PvP anything goes rule. (And I agree that anything goes is absolutely the correct rule for most PvP, and I have total respect for PvPers, even if it isn't for me.) But I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to questions about what should be allowed when evaluating performance or posting about accomplishments in PvE. I view questions like "should we include inspirations?" as being on a sort of slippery slope of what should and shouldn't be included. We've seen other points on that slippery slope in the current discussion, such as "should we include pool powers?" There was a little back and forth on that when comparing Regen to Super Reflexes. I see that point as being very high on the slippery slope. Yes, pool powers are not part of the armor set being discussed, but we all have them in our actual end-game builds. So if we said we couldn't include them in discussions, it would be impossible to discuss our end game builds as examples of what a set could do. So it seems overly restrictive to me, and only makes it more difficult to bring evidence to the table. Similarly, we all slot enhancements in our powers, and typically IOs in the end-game builds that we talk about, that we brag about. Bragging about what one can do with just SOs is certainly more impressive, but also rather atypical. The consensus on incarnate powers is also that they can be included, as again, anyone bragging about what they can do with an end-game build likely has them. Removing them for a challenge is fairly straightforward, but it becomes an extra restriction, something extra to brag about, but not typical. Where I see no consensus yet is the pay to win performance amplifiers, though I feel like more people are against than for their inclusion. They are certainly similar to temporary powers, yet the game doesn't exclude them if you exclude temporary powers. In theory they could run out without you able to refresh them, such as on a task force, but their 8 hour duration makes this exceptionally unlikely in practice. In my Shield Defense/Martial Arts Tanker build, I even built around the use of the Defense Amplifier. The build runs just fine without, but that's what I optimized around, and I always keep it refreshed, so I'm never playing without it. So for me, running a challenge without at least the Defense Amplifier would be an artificial restriction. But the Scrapper Challenge Rules include all sorts of artificial restrictions, so that's hardly an argument. In any case, this seems to be the area of most active discussion about what should and shouldn't be allowed. But discussing whether or not a refreshable buff with an 8 hour duration (performance amplifiers) should be allowed is much higher up that slippery slope than whether or not a refreshable buff with a 1 minute duration should be allowed (inspirations). Again, that's only an appeal to history and consensus, not an appeal to right or wrong, as I don't believe there is a right and wrong. It is valid to discuss relative power levels while leveling on SOs. It is valid to discuss relative power levels with 3 SOs and no pool powers. It is valid to discuss relative power levels on a full team with buffers and a mailbox full of large inspirations. But the historical discussion, at least to the extent that I've seen or been involved in it, has mostly been in the neighborhood of the Scrapper Challenge Rules. That's unlikely to convince someone who thinks we should evaluate sets based on their performance on a full team of buffers and a mailbox full of large inspirations, particularly if that's how they play the game all the time. And I'm absolutely not trying to convince anyone to stop playing the game like that. Of course play the game like that. I don't use inspirations in the end game, but I consider myself a weirdo for restricting myself that way. I just wanted to clarify the historical context of where some of us are coming from, and why we might find ourselves strongly disagreeing.

I’m perhaps unusual in this regard (?), but by the time I hit 50, or certainly by the time I’m IOd and incarnated, my inspiration tray is closed and pretty much doesn’t get touched again. Big exception for farming, combining into and chewing reds at a rapid pace. I definitely use inspirations while leveling, but that’s before I would consider myself min/maxed.

That we found ourselves referencing soloing +4/x8 content when discussing the relative power levels of armors suggests to me that Regen is likely just fine the vast majority of the time. And that’s what seems to be reported in this thread by the people playing it, regardless of relative power level. It’s been fun for me so far. I think I’m level 16 now, and died twice? Barely started, and it was all team play today, but leveling on teams probably much better describes the typical Regen experience than soloing difficult content while fully IOd and incarnated. It’s easy for me to lose sight of that sometimes.

My own belief is more like "Regen is one of the weaker armor sets, potentially weakest." And without relevant experience, I can't back up that belief. It's definitely playable. Edit: weaker in the endgame with incarnate powers and IOs... I don’t much think about power levels while leveling, making my opinions even less relevant. And the original post seemed at least as much about fun as it was about relative power levels. It can definitely be fun if that’s a style of play you like.

Take my conclusions with a huge grain of salt. Until last night I'd not played Regen in years, and I'm currently playing my level 11 Katana/Regen Scrapper with friends. I have no current relevant experience.

I know that some Tankers can do it much faster. I did a 1:28:03 solo +4x8 MoITF enemies buffed no temps no insps no deaths on a Shield/MA Tanker using amplifiers. @Tsuko did the same in 1:29:55 on a Rad/SS Tanker without amplifiers, and @nihiliiin 1:31:37 on an Invuln/DB Tanker with only Tier 3 incarnates, but with amplifiers. But soloing a regular +4x8 ITF on Regen with some restrictions and one death seems very impressive to me, particularly with @Bill Z Bubba having such trouble at lower settings, because I know what he's capable of. I can't remember the difficulty we had it set at, but way back in the old game when we were all much weaker, I was on an all Scrapper ITF, and I took my Katana/Regen Scrapper specifically because I thought it would be the biggest challenge out of my top-end characters. And ho, boy, was it ever. I died over and over. I had fun, mind you, but ouch.

You’ve reminded me how I felt about Regen back in the day. I hated when it was nerfed, but eventually fell in love with what was left. Because what was left was a set where death was almost always my own fault. I could have survived if only I’d played it better. It was like Regen never let me down, I let Regen down, and it left me with a fierce urge to do better, to prove to Regen that I was worthy. And that’s what I want Regen to be. A set that if played perfectly is among the best or even the best, but one that very few can play that well, resulting in middle of the pack performance overall. I doubt I could play it that well anymore if I ever could, but I want to be amazed by the people who can and what they can accomplish. I fear it’s probably a long way from that level of performance, though.

Those would be among my priorities, yes. High HP, and I forget where perma Dull Pain will get me without further help on a Scrapper. I also want to make sure my endurance is more than sustainable to handle drains and debuffs, though Regen is friendly in that regard. And I’m thinking Barrier. Maybe squeeze in Focused Accuracy for to hit debuff resistance, at least with Katana where I have to hit to keep my defense up. Make sure I can always hit everything. Slow resistance so I can get to things to hit them, but that’ll come along with the recharge time resistance.

Haha. Yeah. I’m not out to prove anything, just have some fun. I may well enjoy the ride to 50, which I usually treat very differently from my play at 50. If I do enjoy it that long, I might poke at min/maxing him on beta. I’m expecting that if I do get that far, which is questionable, I’ll be like “yeah, this is trash”, and he’ll get shelved forever. But even the nostalgia factor could make it fun to level.

OK, started my namesake Katana/Regen Scrapper. Even did Outbreak. Cuz work is boring.

Honestly, yeah, this thread makes me a lot more curious to sample current Regen performance than it does scare me off.

Nobody nerfherds when I post my builds. 😢😉But on topic, no, I've not played a min/maxed L50 Regen since live, so I'll grant that someone with current experience, assuming comparable experience with other armor sets, might have a better picture of where it stands than I do with my ancient experience and mere guesses as to how it might perform comparatively these days.

It's been forever since I last played my namesake and pictured Katana/Regen Scrapper in the old game. I loved him, but even in the old game he was probably my weakest fully-IO'd character. In the new game I fear he'd be even worse off comparatively. Plus I'm older and lazier now, and Regen takes focus and effort to play well. But if I still wanted to play that way, I wouldn't hesitate to remake him. Probably most of what I talk about on the forum is hard core min/maxed insanity, and certainly that is much of what I do in game, but I probably spend as much time playing with my friends leveling whatever combination sounds fun to me, with very little regard to being optimal. We play what we feel like, adjust the difficulty as necessary, and don't sweat the face plants.

Haha this actually isn’t the first time I’ve heard about his Kat/DA. @Wernerwe summon thee! Any particular builds/advice you’d share? Do you feel a Scrapper is the optimal archetype for that pairing? Oh, hello! <dusts off his account> Life happened, I've been away from the game for three months, blah blah blah. I just hopped into the game today, and ugh, motion sickness so fast. I need to recondition myself to movement in this game. I've leveled and played top end Katana/Dark on Scrapper and Brute. I think Scrapper was more fun overall due to crits and front-loaded damage, but the lack of a taunt aura was painful. Brute was more survivable. But my Dark/MA Tanker was more fun and more survivable still, and that in turn paled in comparison to my SD/MA Tanker. I guess I'm recommending Scrapper over Brute, even though the 75% resistance cap can make a meaningful difference to survivability on a top end build, and despite the lack of a taunt aura. But if I were making one today, I'd probably go Stalker, simply because it would be something new for me, and I like how it fits thematically. But I've never played or built a Stalker, so I have zero idea whether Katana/Dark is at the top end, bottom end, or in the middle on Stalkers. Some general Dark Armor advice can be found in this post: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/18072-dark-armour/?tab=comments#comment-200512 Your biggest end-game weakness is cascading defense failure, but with Katana, they have to be really good at debuffing to crack open your melee defense. Big packs of Cimerorans, for instance. ITF at +4x8, and you have to monitor your defense and be ready to react at a moment's notice, because there's very little time between them cracking you open and you faceplanting. For builds, I don't have a current-game Scrapper build. My Brute build is around here on the forums somewhere. Well, I guess the danger is it went through a few iterations, and the earlier iterations were really quite bad compared to where I ended up. I'm sure it's on my machine too, but there's like 30 different Katana/Dark Brute builds on my machine, and I forget which one I chose in the end. In regards to parry sucking for DPS, while true, if I remember correctly one of my Katana/Dark Brute builds was doing something like 375 DPS while keeping Parry... I assume just single-stacked, but in the attack chain. Including it allowed for detuning of recharge on the big hitters, allowing them to do more damage per hit than they would in a faster chain, partially making up for the time wasted on a low DPS attack. I'm definitely not claiming you do better DPS with it than without it, but you can do what I'd consider sufficient DPS with it.

In the current game, you can buy hours of jet pack time, endlessly rechargeable. So that's my travel power on most characters. But even in the old game, I would often skip a travel power and make do with Combat Jumping or Hover, as there was often something I wanted more than being able to travel more quickly.

Another vote for Shield. I’ve built and played high end tricked out Shield, Invuln, and Dark. Invuln seems toughest by a slight margin, but not enough to tempt me away from the extra damage output of Shield. Dark is sheer delight until the defense debuffs show up, but those are common enough that it just feels weaker than the others, even with Barrier Core or Ageless Radial on tap. And it’s also missing the damage output of Shield. I also like how much Shield buffs the party’s defense. But all of them are very solid and capable of ridiculous things.

Absolutely insane. Congratulations! So, uh... apparently Energy Melee is awesome now and everyone loves it. I guess I need to figure out a build and play around on beta. Honestly, I hope I still like Martial Arts more, because I’m not sure I’m up for another Tanker slog to 50 right now. At least on another Shield Tanker - too similar to what I’m already playing and loving. Eh, there’s my answer - I’m loving it, just keep playing it. 🙂 Other than Tanker, what’s EM best on?

That’s how I did it on my Dark Tanker too. Well, that and keeping the minions stunned.

That’s been my experience as well.

Yeah. I wanted a good balance of survivability, AoE, and single target DPS on my Shield/MA. Gloom was important to me to maximize DPS on level 54 AVs. I think a lot of people make the same decision, perhaps for the same reason.

More congratulations! And both your and @Bill Z Bubba‘s times were significantly faster than mine. It looks like Energy Melee is a beast now.

Congratulations!

Back in the old game, I had a survivability spreadsheet that I used to calculate some of the aspects of survivability of various specific builds and assign a final score, but it was never a general comparison of armor sets, and others have made better spreadsheets than I did. And these days, survivability is enough higher that my old spreadsheet would be mostly meaningless, as it only measured the basics of defense, resistance, and regen/healing. In a modern high-end survival build (edit: Brute and Tanker, anyway), you can handle those basics to the point where straight damage no longer kills you - debuffs and exotic things kill you.