Leogunner

I can understand where you're coming from, but the conclusions are still entirely meant to be subjective. When the term "test" is used in this context, it's more a subjective comparison and thus a data point for a more broad analysis for others to compare and contrast. Basically, the quoted is meant to be their opinion and it's one I agreed with after playing various combos. Oh, and try mace. It feels almost too nice.

Technically, twink isn't right either since there is no high level character providing supplies for a low level.

Your mileage may vary. Of all the ATs, I have encountered the most primadonnas playing Tankers and that's saying a lot when there's usually not multiple Tankers on a team but often multiple blasters, defenders, brutes, etc. Just yesterday, there was a Tanker who insisted on herding, calling where he/she was herding to, when to start attacking and such. As a Stalker, I don't have to give a **** at all and was just kinda chuckling to myself. He/she also insisted on pushing the difficulty up and holding team spots for a defender or controller specifically. When he/she finally logged, I said one little grain of truth: "Well, he was rather overbearing..." and that released the flood gates of everyone complaining and making jokes at their expense. lol I'm not one to talk about people behind their backs (I'll say it to your face though) but I have to admit, it was a nice reminder of what I won't do as a Tanker. That crap is too slow...or at least he/she was executing it in an aggravatingly slow manner.

I'd assume it's also meant to differentiate the melee ATs, specifically Tanker from Brute. The Tanker builds likely will emphasize cones and PBAoEs because they will be more strat changing. For example, I bet a lot of Brutes/Scrappers don't use Jacob's Ladder much because of it's minor size and slower activation, but a Tanker can get more use out of it because it's easier to hit more targets with it. It also can have the effect of slotting for effect. Having a PBAoE that reduces ToHit or debuffs recovery can be leveraged to hold more aggro while also aiding teammates. In contrast, a Brute or Scrapper will likely aim for a more aggressive build and strategy to put foes down quicker. Also, to clarify before someone chimes in that Tankers were already much different from Brutes, I'll just say that practically anything a Tanker could do could have been emulated by another melee...even the aggro stuff although it'd likely only require some ramp up. Although that doesn't mean Tanker was specifically underpowered, they just weren't unique. Still wouldn't mind shaving some stuff back from the new Tanker but they feel pretty distinct mechanically. I play a lot of Stalkers and some Scrappers and it's edging on that level of distinction. Even with the same powersets, they utilize them differently enough to warrant playing both.

I have been mostly testing in the mid level ranges (around lvl 28 to 39) and so far, I've been on 4 different Tankers (Shield/DM, Dark/Spines, Rad/Mace and Inv/Kin). While I've mostly been playing with the proc'ed AoEs, I've also been getting a general feel for what the characters can handle and sort of pre-preemptively feeling out the future changes. I'm going to miss the larger range of the cones (I actually wish this wasn't going to be dialed back at all!) but I'm thinking the damage should be fine. It's actually not that amazing. Even though my Kat/Regen Stalker I've been playing on live has limited AoE by comparison, I also feel he'd kill just as fast if not faster than the above Tankers on similar content (been playing +1x4...my standard leveling setting for my Stalkers is +3x2 tho). The likely difference in clear speed will probably come in at anything beyond x5, though. The next chance I get, I'll alter the settings to +0x5 and see how he goes.

Can't enhance KB at all.

No need for higher difficulty settings, just give team leaders a means of blocking incarnate and IO bonuses. Put it in the confirmation like when you're getting level shifted that "This team limits defensive invention bonuses" or "This team limits offensive invention bonuses" or "This team limits all invention bonuses" and "The following incarnate powers will be disabled:...." then you have to agree before you can join the team. Scaling things higher is literally the same thing but more difficult. Control of the content as well as the team can help improve the experience overall. I'd also suggest some means of compensating players who disable certain bonuses (basically handicapping yourself) like maybe putting up an option to earn a certain reward of your choosing and basically earning "experience" that grants that reward once you fill up the bar while handicapped...but that'd likely require a ton or work to implement and balance. Not to mention, min/maxers are going to game it to the max.

Pineapple is the test server. You can use a slash command to get to whatever level you want and however much inf you need. IOs don't require salvage, only inf and you can buy merits with inf and get whatever recipe you need.

Reliability, propagation and magnitude. How does Tanker Bruising compare to the - res in this sets? But that's more a determination of what I'd qualify as force multiplication. Those sets obviously have other bonuses that easily put those sets in that category so even if their - res is comparable in this 3 fronts, that would merely mean the - res is a bonus for them too kind of like the - recovery in poison trap.

Just got off of playing a Dark/Spines Tanker, lvl 39 (so I can use all primary/secondary skills), unoptimized, only basic IOs, some procs and uniques. Not sure how anyone plays Dark Armor and Spines that isn't a Stalker. Even with extra END, I likely couldn't manage without the END return from the panacea proc in Dark Regen. Overall though, it was pretty interesting and I could still manage +1x4 comfortably. Throw Spines and Spine Burst did feel rather anemic while Ripper felt like the set Workhorse as it hits a good amount of foes, does amazing damage and can knock down foes. If I were optimizing power picks, I might skip Spine Burst and just maximize Ripper. I actually skipped Impale as I needed more slots...went with Barb Swipe for a low cost, quick recharge but it also felt very lack luster. All in all, I'd need to actually play the character and level them up fresh to get a better handle on which powers would work best for him. It's the jankiest of Tankers I've played with on beta so far.

Curious how you play your Kinetic Brute. It might not be that the differences aren't enough but that you're already privy enough on optimizing Kinetics. I actually had an Inv/Kinetic Tanker on live, I think that's another I need to test.

/Regen on anything else but Kat, BS or Staff is mediocre and possibly a struggle. For those 3 sets, the +def powers make it very good set. FYI, this is talking about Stalker. It's different for Scrapper or Brute.

You know what also increases damage to the target? More damage. If we're talking about debuffs, you'd think there would be qualifiers such as reliability, propagation and magnitude that would categorize something as a force multiplier or else anything that increases team performance would be force multiplication, even a -res proc...we even have people saying aggro management is force multiplication... No, Bruising is a bonus. But this is neither here nor there. The comment is meant for another thread, not here.

Not a bad idea. More thematic than just a straight +END bonus and requires active use to benefit. The team endurance battery might be pushing things beyond the cottage rule but I feel it's better than Bruising. People say it's their team force multiplier but it's literally on a single target. That's not multiplying anything, just reducing the lifespan of the target. I'd recommend putting it in the Suggestions Forum tho.

For Stalkers, Lightning Rod doesn't unhide so it's possible to put mobs on the floor before using AS if the alpha is too rough. Also, Thunder Strike can be used with hide to 100% crit the targeted foe. For Scrappers, Thunder Strike, when it crits on any target it hits, basically gets the full crit damage as if they were critted by the smashing AND energy damage portions. I've yet to make a Tanker version so I can only guess Jacob's Ladder hits more targets although someone also mentioned Chain Induction hitting more targets as well.

If you wait for trash to be swept, you will miss your chance to do your job, i.e. tanking Alphas. Now you could be vindictive and intentionally go the opposite way from someone who rushed ahead of you or let them take care of their own aggro but then you're stepping all over your own principals of ensuring the safety of the team. You're either knowledgeable and adaptable to your teammates needs (some might need a babysitter like you...a lot don't, however) or you box them in to your needs. I'm pretty good at going with the flow...just got off of a team where the leader insisted I lead the charge on my Stalker despite there being a Tanker. I think they just wanted someone to use their support skills on rather than sitting back and shooting. Lol it all worked out and we all had fun. Fun often means a sense of danger or struggle without actively shooting your team in the foot for it.

Just a question to gauge your reception of the differences between melees: Would you play the Spines powerset on any other melee AT? Or is the changes to Tanker make the Spines set the most beneficial? Are there characters you're considering remaking as Tankers? If so, why? Are there any sets you wouldn't choose to play on a Tanker? If so, why? To answer my own questions: 1. Haven't played Spines but I'll roll one up right now. I would play Spines on my Stalker because I have a character and concept that only fits the Stalker and ranged crits are fun. 2. I actually do have a concept for a Brute that might fit better as a Tanker. The concept works for both but I want to remake the character purely because I have a good amount of Brutes and only 2 Tankers on live. It also helps that I disliked the melee set for the live character because Savage is kind of meh... 3. Thinking about it, I don't really see myself using Electric Melee on a Tanker. The set's AoEs benefit greatly from crits from Scrapper and Stalkers moreso than higher caps. Maybe someone wants to chime in here...the AoE damage from Elec is kind of mild and criticals really makes the difference. I'll roll one up just to experience expanded Jacob's Ladder though...

It's not that hard. Consider that if you touch something extremely cold, it could feel like it's burning, likely because it's destroying nerve tissue. I think the harder RP is making ice into fire as the concept of frozen flames is something in fantasy but you just can't customize ice to look anything like flames...or any set to look like some kind of frozen flame. I've made Psychic into Cold too. And Darkness into Emotions and Radiation into Radiance(holy). And Spines into knives. Frankly, swapping damage types does practically nothing if you want to create a power that is more creative than "this sword cuts with lasers!" or something.

The theme, look and customization of a set is what's important, not what the combat log says the type of damage is.

Nothing wrong with caution. I've been playing around with a Rad/Mace Tanker on beta at +1x4 and it's not as bad as you'd imagine. Once you get the mobs down to fewer numbers, you really have to start working on your whack-a-mole game as you see weaklings fall while your Lts and bosses are still standing (and some mobs you miss). I've never played Rad armor so it's an interesting little test learning the set and how they blend. No IOs. I'm actually having some close calls because I'm over estimating Tanker defenses. The attacks feel very meaty tho.

Think of it this way: In the past, if you wanted to play a melee DPS you could play a Brute or Scrapper...you could also play a Stalker but they weren't optimal for the task. Now, they are good and you can now choose to make not just a Brute, Scrapper or Stalker but instead a Brute Scrapper AND Stalker because they play differently. EDIT: That isn't to say that Tankers aren't optimal for a task, it's more a diversification so they play differently from a Brute to entice players to play Tankers, pretty much adding them to that pool. And if you want to argue that this isn't diversification but rather homogenization, I'll have you know Shadow Maul feels VERY different on the Beta Tanker than any other AT.

Here's an exercise for you: Defend Bruising. Why does it need to exist at all? As has been implemented, it is purely a kludge meant to make picking the tier 1 ability less of a punishment. It doesn't improve team damage by much when taking into consideration of resistances and levels, cannot be stacked and overall encourages counterproductive tactics of using the lowest effective attack most often. So why even bother with the mechanic at all? What useful mechanical and/or conceptual purpose does it serve that can't be better simulated by some other mechanic that doesn't require a convoluted mechanic that's more complicated than what is already implemented?

That's pretty much what your perceived Tanker's role has always been. And these changes rectify that mandate. Likely has something to do with pushing into the support role of providing the team damage via -res. Thematically? Perhaps. Mechanically? They already mutlitply their own buffs via pets. The analogy is more in the vein of being melee support not focused on damage, not being buff/debuff monsters. And when I say "not focused on damage" I mean literally sacrificing it for support as a Defender would. Well I'm glad someone is acknowledging the similarities in a tank's role and a control role in CoH. Perhaps we can finally acknowledge that a true control role can replace the function and need of a tank role here and thus abolish this notion that it should be the core focus of the AT's function. Tankers are good at not being killed and their ancillary purpose is they can utilize that durability by using taunt. That's it. It's not a pure role on a team or anything. It's just a means to exploit a control effect, no different from combining a stun and immobilize to simulate a hold which is a 100% shutdown of a foe.

Not going to lie. The reason I said in the past that the Tanker's AoEs should have increase recharge if their area was increased, was so that procs would work better in them. Also, the reason I'd want their damage mod reduced to 0.85 is so that there would be a nice, clear distinct advantage to using proc IOs to buff their damage if so desired. It'd be their way of using "sets" to improve damage...but not actual set bonuses.