Leogunner

You didn't.

I'm sure it wouldn't look weird for mobs to be swinging and shooting at empty air but still somehow transferring the damage to the Tanker.

Don't forget that the opposition is also arguing caps which is only relevant in teams (for the most part) and Tankers and Brutes share some caps while the latter has a damage cap that puts them within reach of a standard Scrapper. So that would mean their argument kind of stems off of optimal team scenarios in which case, it counters your point to a degree. Mind you, I'm not one that agrees with basing such decisions solely on min/max circumstances, but that tends to be how opinions get made, as you described toward the start of your post. I'm still standing by my suggestion though because I think it'd be fun to play. People have said it'd make using AoEs much easier and thus boring but I'd argue a lot of melee AoEs range from only moderately rewarding to a DPS loss due to their cost, activation times and overall depreciated damage values. I guess it would hinge on just how baked in the powers effects are to determine just how difficult it'd be to alter Tanker AoE values.

Why?

I wonder where the Tanker purists went that would argue that increasing their damage cap just makes them a copy of Brute (or pushes them into the same category). But just for the sake of keeping it relevant, in the discussion: I still think increasing the area and cap of their AoE melee skills would be a far more thematic and fun solution to add to a Tanker's damage output while keeping their overall DPS behind more offense oriented ATs (because if there aren't more foes, there isn't more damage and even if there are more foes, you're talking about minions, one of the most disposable forces you'll face in the game) while also applying useful effects. Dishing out unresisted debuffs is something that should be done with care. How many unresisted debuffs exist and where do they sit at? Most tend to be only partially unresisted, others unresisted but at low value.

I was commenting that you said you wanted to avoid comparisons with them but you did it anyway. But with how similar ATs function, the point people still ignore is that, whether one AT or another has the meta advantage when min/maxing their builds, it doesn't matter because people will play the AT for its differences. Even if it's mathematically deemed that Corruptors are superior by mincing numbers, people still play Defender, even with its jank inherent. Then posters would be like "We need to address this! So lets make Defender support even stronger!" but smashing into diminishing returns harder doesn't change the meta min/max dynamic. What I say is, make them "unique"...not to be confused with different (lets give them taunt and have them be support tanks!). Like how the new proc builds are giving some advantage to both, you could skew it a bit by adjusting their blasts to do slightly higher dmg but a good smidgen longer recharge and instead of +dmg when solo, they get +global recharge.

Well I'll chime in and say, I think that's a TERRIBLE understanding of the ATs! For various reasons but I'll save you the time of reading each point. To lay out my opinion, the sets of melee ATs aren't in some vacuum alone. They kind of set the scope of their abilities out and show you the level their powerset combo (both melee and armor) should output and don't deviate much from each other with the only exceptions being their quirks: Scrappers would exist as the medium. It is just the plain version of the AT, the value of melee attacks having higher values and shorter cooldowns because of their range. The level of survival to expect, the tolerance of mez and their overall place in tactics when on a team (run up and hit people in the face). As other ATs are defined, the Scrapper is only slightly adjusted to give it advantages for melee attacks (it's higher melee mod) plus its crit chance against Lt/Bosses and minions. Granted, it took a while to get there, Stalkers edge on damage and offense with their more variable and controllable crit chances but note it's starting from Scrapper's starting point and modifying it to create a new way of using the powerset combo (removing some armor utility and melee utility for the skirmishing combo of stealth/hide and Assassin's strike). Brutes use the Scrapper starting point as a sort of cap and creates their own offensive dynamic by locking their potential into Fury and in exchange for this trade off, have their caps (for their armor and melee) extended. Part of their fury mechanic needs to include taking hits which is also why it has taunt. Combining their fury mechanic and their caps leads to the situation on paper that people are complaining about but they still perform within the scope of the melee ATs. The problem, I see, is when Tanker rolls in. They have advantages over the others and they make those trade-offs with respect of the Scrapper starting off point...it's just people don't like what they got for the trade...or less ambiguous, they don't like that IOs lessened their advantage, both on the personal defense front and the utility of holding hate. BUT the AT still works! It's fine, it just lacks an identity unique to itself. Many say the Tanker should be team oriented...I have opinions on that but suffice to say, I think it's outside of the scope of the AT's power combo. It leans on this perception that "Tankers are team players" when that's not what the AT description describes. It doesn't say they selfishly throw themselves in the line of fire or they are the shield of their team. In reality, they are no different from the other ATs with the combo of melee and armor. When you start throwing in support, you're making a new powerset type combination. The melees were never intended to be force multipliers but rather the force to be multiplied. You want to avoid that comparison but you compared them and formed a course of action on that comparison? lol okay. If someone makes a thread to discuss it, I'd be happy to brainstorm with people on some possibilities...much better than deleting one or the other.

I'm an advocate of ATs using powersets differently which justifies and establishes their similar existence. Prime example is Stalker and Scrapper. Another is Dominator and Controller. Corruptor and Defender still have their issues but their specialties does add a sort of niche to how they each use their sets (Defenders being able to take greater advantage of their debuffs while Corruptor gets more use out of straight damage and DoT effects). More could be done to differentiate the two but that's another thread. With regards to Tankers and Brutes, on one hand, you have some individuals who are vindictive of Brute's advantage and wish to nerf it. On another, there are those that want to keep damage opportunities away from Tanker despite that being the chasm that exists between the two and push the AT into a niche that becomes less and less necessary the further you progress in the game. The way I see it, Tanker has 2 powersets: armor and melee. They function, mechanically, identically to Brute, Scrapper and Stalker. Either the armor or the melee needs to have a unique function, not to give Tankers a role or to appease those that feel Brute overshadows them but because it would give players a reason to make alts as Tankers. IMO, any other addition (stacking Bruising, more aggro, changing modifier caps, etc) wouldn't have a tangible effect to change any type of dynamic between the Brute and Tanker.

The only reason I'd suggest a mechanic for the set is to appease the players that enjoy the current animations while also giving those that want a better attack flow using the old ET quick animation. But I do agree, having sets retain some simplicity is a design consideration in itself and has its own appeal.

Don't you think you're being hypocritical here, saying you're not impatient while projecting the same accusation? I have my own views on what could be done with certain powers, skins, animations and effects. Just because someone has an opinion on something doesn't mean they're open to complete generalization of intent. You kinda did that when you said it'd "look bad on the devs" when, to be truthful, wouldn't actually be the case. That doesn't mean I agree with the OP but I don't disagree either lol

Just wanted to mention, games take on new workers all the time that then work on parts of the code, from bug fixes to clipping or story writing. Just because those individuals didn't *make* these things doesn't bar them from the title of "developer". But that's neither here nor there. All they have to do is maintain the game and abide by the ground rules they set for themselves. This means, there is no contract to build rapport through any other means and the OPs suggestion doesn't seem like it'd break those ground rules thus it won't affect rapport in a negative way.

That's pretty good. Although I stopped keeping track of this stuff when incarnates started to be the new standard so not sure how it stacks with the new meta. I think with changes to procs, that might be a way to increase ATs with less damage potential since the procs are not affected by DMG mods or buffs.

Be that as it may, the context wasn't about maintaining the game. With regards to improving the game, you're going to get players that dislike certain additions and it's my opinion that, if you don't like them, you can suck it up or go make your own personal server. I don't put much flack in "communities" unless they are salient. Comics communities, anime communities, furry communities, [insert fandom] community...interest =/= community or if it is, it's about as significant as intrigue. Perhaps I just put more importance on what qualifies as a community than others and see the futility of people pandering to fandoms and their wide, self-unaware and contradicting ideals. But this is all semantics so don't let my opinion restrict your preferred terms.

Well, opinions aside, since they aren't actually selling anything what other people perceive them as doesn't matter.

Or if you're fighting Arachnos in PvE...uhg. Some random thought I had, what if Antidote also had a buff for +healing received? So even the target's own heals would be better at capping them off.

Can you link it? I've actually heard scrappers say it had mediocre damage. I'd figure for scrappers and stalkers that crits would weigh their damage better since it should apply all an attack's damage +dot would be applied instantly but at best I've heard nearly nothing which you'd think would be unheard of for a new set.

Heh, Fire Melee absolutely blows Savage out of the water with regards to damage. Heck, Katana blows it out of the water. They also gets a proper BU. I'm actually surprised you'd compare the two. And Savage does get mitigation. It's just crap. I'd actually wager Savage doesn't beat many sets in most regards except mitigation where Fire Melee has 0. It's not as efficient as Claws and I'd wager it's pretty low in that regards too (efficiency being a measure of kill speed and endurance consumption). It's utility is middle of the road (20% recharge and 23% endredux when you have max stacks and a teleport...that's it) probably beating a few sets like Battle Axe (although chain KD is as good as a hold on a boss), Fire melee (just damage). It probably beats Energy Melee, I suppose. But then I'm not really a min/maxer. I like niche sets as many as any other...Savage hasn't shown me anything. I even paired it with something that needs and amplifies its benefits and it still ranged from meh to frustrating...also, why don't blood stacks refresh? I can be sitting at five stacks while slapping a group of mobs and suddenly 3 stacks drop off at the same time. Lol come on! Haven't tried Savage Assault. Might be different.

If we're to go off of how the skills are on the Paragonwiki page, the "correct" way to play is to use the max blood stacks/exhaustion feature is on an "as needed" basis depending on advantageous circumstances. Like, if mobs are huddled, it might be a positive use to use the increased radius of Rending Flurry or the instant recharge feature of Shred for a double cone. Or if you needed it, pop Blood Thirst for a side of healing to keep you in the game. Then there's Hemorrhage for STs if the scale was made decent enough to want to use at max stacks. There were meant to be options...but now it's just increased radius and damage for Flurry and increased damage and DoT duration for Hemorrhage...mind you, the original intent would have had blood stacks giving you +dmg in the first place instead of +rech so there's also that. Then there's also the fact that Blood Thirst live is a watered down Build up clone with a longer animation which likely doesn't come close to the bonus that blood stacks likely originally offered (I'd probably pin it at under Follow up level so probably around +25% or +5% per blood stack). Blood Thirst has a lower damage buff on live too (35% dmg I think...compared to the 80% of BU...I want to say the duration is slightly longer for Blood Thirst though but that only barely makes up for it's animation time...) I think it might be possible to incorporate at least the healing from Blood Thirst's original incarnation...curious how yall think it might fit in though without "Re-Un-Cottage Rule"ing it...

Another thought that is more in line with the OP, if adding a HoT effect to all powers that grant stacks, the idea could be: you only get the HoT if you strike a target and cause the DoT. AND you would gain a blood stack. BUT if you have full blood stacks, that is considered "wouldn't have gotten a stack" ALSO, if your in the exhausted state, that's considered "would have gotten a stack" You don't want to be exhausted unless you just want to ensure you get all possible healing. You want to avoid exhaustion to keep the bonus rech/discount rolling. There. Now you have 2 sides of a coin, with their own advantages and disadvantages.

That's bad design, then. But I tried that too and for me, it didn't change the fact the set has no mitigating effects nor are the bonuses from blood stacks (the discount, and recharge bonus) much compromise for that. Also, you don't get different effects for partial blood stacks, only max. Also, I don't understand why Blood Thirst has such an annoyingly long cast time and can be wasted partially if used while exhausted. I mentioned in another thread, changes to help the set would be : Shorten exhaust time from 12sec to 6-8sec Blood thirst should remove exhaustion and make you immune to exhaustion for its duration. Possibly increase duration and recharge as well. Give the rest of the non-consumer skills some bonuses either for having bigger stacks or when used with no stacks or during exhaustion. Instead of the one above, improve the effects when using consumer skills during stacks/max stacks. Give Hemorrhage a 100% KU This is also a problem with psi melee but that only offers extra damage /mez but you can't control when you get locked out... It's a bonus with a strict timer. Savage, on the other hand, seems to want to grant you bonuses for certain situations but then it's a lie and actually punishment? I'm sorry, that's dumb. Might be a different story if it shined in some area besides animations.

Was just curious as I've seen people talking about the savage sets in IO builds but no complaints. I played it on Brute but with the all resists of elec armor and the lack of any mitigating effects except 1 KD, it felt like a race of who can get to the KO point of 0HP first, me or the huddle of mobs. I'd end up using rest alot to save my heal. I played Elec armor with elec melee many times and it had much better chances with its AoE KD, sleep, stun and END drain.

I don't often rp with others mainly because I play erratically. My rp comes in the form of reading mission dialog and "bending it" slightly to fit my character's personality and I think how my character would respond (or want to respond thus eliciting other emotions based on how things actually turn out). My characters tend to be pretty based. They aren't often world savers or priority threats but they tend to have expertise that isn't reflected in actual powers, like my stalker's ability to lock /unlock any mechanical, computerized or magical locking mechanism or my scrapper being a teen prodigy at martial arts that he can do the things he does despite being a novice and sidekick to other heroes.

What is the performance of Savage at?

That's an interesting concept. Sounds fun to team with, might be a little frustrating to play.

Sounds like a bunch of "gimme gimme gimme" and doesn't really change the dynamic that players will just take the path of least resistance and use whatever is most effective. The sprinkling in of buffing normal enhancements little by little to "catch up" with IOs is what does it for me. As someone who actually uses TOs and DOs, these changes will only make you level faster and that is just unnecessary. The prospect of increasing their accessibility (i.e. expanding the range of effectiveness before they expire) seems conservative enough to warrant using them without requiring shifting everything up. I mean, I know that TOs have crap enhancement values...that's why you triple/quadruple up on things until you get a relevant DO/SO to put in the power. This whole tangent of making TOs/DOs "fun" seems comical. When has putting enhancements in powers ever been "fun"? The only thing fun about it is gearing up something noticeably *better* in their place but you're actively trying to diminish that part so you can more easily hit ED caps with DOs. If I were trying to make a suggestion to make enhancements "fun", it'd probably be through some gameplay-mode where using dropped enhancements were the only option (no market buys, no NPC buys, no IOs) and putting some improvements to drops/rewards/combinations to make the game feel like it's rewarding you and you are progressing: Drops - improve frequency slightly and increase the weight your origin has on the drops, i.e. you're more likely to get the right origin DO/SO Rewards - all mission bonus rewards would need to be made selectable. It wouldn't be a carte blanch selection but there should be a set of options randomly chosen weighed by AT and locked to your origin. Combinations - yeah, there's this combination system that allows you to + your enhancements. There could be a system of combining non-like enhancements to randomly get other enhancement of different types (acc, dmg, confuse, endredux, etc) and fusing slotted enhancements to get bonus effects like "attuned", "+% bonus value", "origin upgrade", etc...but it would be random what you get and if it succeeds. A lot of players request more aspects added to the game to add challenge but at the same time, they want to retain all the bells and whistles that push them beyond balance. Rather than trying to push up and up and up, why not look for options to remain grounded? And no, I'm not saying IOs ruined this or that or incarnates have done such and such to the ATs. You can have all that stuff but I'd like concepts and incentives for utilizing the various game modes and difficulties.