Sovera

I've waxed long and poetic on the Brunker theme so rest assured unlike what others may have slotted 'for fairness' in comparing ATs my slotting is minimal for survival to just squeak past or reach the defensive caps, and then pour the rest into offense. As we have said several times already in Blaster VS Sentinels we can up a Brute's survival, but we can't up a Tanker's damage all that much. Even so 5 minutes later I barely dented the AV as my post showed where AA's tanker actually killed it in 7 minutes. Not sure what is the secret ingredient in their sauce is without them posting their build. I, in fact, come from a string of tests done a few days earlier and posted on the Brunker thread over the Tanker side of the forums, where I tried to up a Fire/Ice Melee's damage and nothing I did really moved the scale. Super proc monstering my heaviest attacks, proc monstering my weaker attacks, add different attacks, change rotations, add more procs, etc. While on paper a Freezing Touch all procced out at 700 damage seems absurdly better than a 'normal' slotted Freezing Touch at 540 damage the fact is that it did not budge the scale more than whiffing would account for. Actually, it made it worse. 4:20 and 4:30 was the reward for super proc monstering Freezing Touch. As long as I did not add -res procs into the mix nothing I did moved the needle down from 4 minutes from my usual slotting. It's all documented.

Other than the fact it is something like 20-30 +3 bosses? Who also do -def debuffs. -def debuffs eat alive resistance based sets. Barrier is a near necessity as a panic button.

This took longer than it needed since I had to re-learn how to use the AE, but I got it. Burk AV, level 54, fully tricked T4 out Tanker, Degenerative 75% chance for debuff. To mirror the invuln/regen/SR experience of the Brutes I did not use Fiery Embrace, Blazing Aura or Burn. No -res procs used. I stopped the test at 5 minutes on the dot since I'm not masochistic. I should be 30 seconds behind a Brute according to the pylon tests, but I think not. Someone cry me a river on the poor widdle Brutes whose damage is so bad compared to Tankers. If others want to test for more data samples and not pass through my suffering I've published the mission as 'Burk Test'.

Yes, but it shows him as level 30-40. Could you mention what mission you used to find him?

This is the sort of tests I was talking about. Between Tanker and Brute there is a significant deviance. I will mock a test by not using Fiery Embrace nor Burn. Where did you find him? Isn't he a 30-40 arch-villain?

This runs contrary to my tests. I welcome tested results instead of math though. We are still talking of solo scenarios, right?

That's the sort of mathmagic Bopper started going on about when I invoked him on the subject. I'm sure this is relevant in the rarefied heights you eggheads frequent ( :p ) but for the rest of us a 4 minute run turning into a 3 minute run is a 25% boost. With both you and Bopper agreeing on the subject you're undoubtedly right it can be trimmed to an actual 12% damage boost but I'm not going to confuse myself others by adding it. As for the AV that's maybe probably right (I don't argue maths) but % are about %. One thing can resist more, but if we run both tests and the % is the same that's what I take into consideration. The fact I (random numbers) take 50% HP of one S/L resisting AV after 5 minutes and then the next AV has no S/L resistances and I take 80% HP does not matter if I run the same test with a -res proc and the first AV lost 5-8% more HP and the second one also lost 5-8% more HP. What might influence more is the damage proc I used being resisted because that would influence the run instead of -res versus empty slot. But still, I posted the numbers and they were steady, there were no 10-15% or 2% outliers. It was very solidly in the 5% to 8% range each time. I had at least one in Burn which is very good at inflicting procs. At +4 with plenty of bosses surviving long once the dross is burn (hehe) there were plenty of chances to apply the -res to at least part of the population. How and if this factors in I've no real clue. Me chimp, me test, me post results.

Incidentally the Reactive Interface bettered the times in one minute for Comic Con testing, but not because of the -res but because of the medium DoT. Testing with 75% chance for -res had no difference with the sample run done with no Interface slotted. 75% chance for DoT bettered the times by one minute-ish. Degenerative with 75% chance for -HP made no significant different where 75% DoT time bettered the times in about 30 seconds ish. Neither Reactive showed any difference between test runs against +4 AVs with no Interface slotted. Both Degeneratives showed an appreciable difference in AV HP at the end of the test which is why I always go for Degenerative 75% chance for DoT since it works for both. Again, sample data of me which is woefully poor for data purposes.

I can only speak for myself, Nihili. I did ask others to test as well but received zero answers. It's fine, but that just means there is no data to back up my sample of one. I posted my finds in the Pylon thread but to summarize again: - Pylon test with -res procs. Pylon test with -res procs changed for damage procs. 4 minute average runs with damage procs turned into 3 minute runs with -res procs so the 25% damage increase I mention (I'm a baboon when it comes to math so please someone correct me if I spout stupid shit). - 5 minute beating multiple different +4 AVs using the Architect missions using -res procs and then 5 minutes of doing the same but using damage procs instead. Compared the HP of the AV at the 5 minute mark. -res procs were between 5% to 8% ahead of the damage procs. - Comic Con farm map. No clickies used, no inspirations. Multiple cleared maps while using -res procs, then clearing map while using damage procs showed no significant difference (certainly not 25% faster times). - Quick and dirty one run of Trapdoor with -res procs and then a run with damage procs au lieu of -res procs showed no significant difference. I don't claim to be a mathmagician or that my tests were perfectly run. The AV tests in particular were tricky since I -should- have done them until the AV died, but instead tried to get the tooltip of the AV's HP at the 5 minute mark. This can produce user errors as I tried to grasp all the numbers and not mistake a 6 for an 8 (crummy fonts) or decide if a regen tick happening while looking at the numbers counted or not, but the tests were ran multiple times. I have them posted in the Scrapper's Pylon thread and the difference never budged from 5-8% so even whiffing and user error were at least consistent.

-res skew results because they inflate them. Suddenly 25% or more damage increase from using two of them. 'Just look at the damage my character does!' Then we leave a pylon, go do a normal map, time it while using -res, then time it not using a -res. Same times. Where is the 25% damage increase? We solo fight a regular +4 (+3 with Alpha) AV and the 25% damage increase from having the -res procs slotted turns into as low as 5%. And that skews the filter by which builds are looked at. It is no longer 'my damage is X' but rather 'my damage is X +25%', and then arguments are built around how such and such AT combo can do X (+25%) because it can slot more -res procs into them as if that X(+25%) happened outside of the narrow pylon test confines. Other than that -res are fine with the pylon test if testing between builds, but in that case they both need the -res slotted in as well. It's a nitro boost and both builds need it so they can be compared. That X combo can slot more -res procs does not make it better than Z combo outside of pylons since -res procs have so little impact in actual gameplay. I don't know how this works for PvP. I'm pretty surprised -res procs are used there since I thought it was a bursty meta but I live and a I learn.

The important question is whether you were using -res procs on both characters since those skew results. It probably slipped under the radar and you didn't answer the last time it was asked, but knowing this would make a difference. I doubt a PvP character is using -res procs, but I don't know about your slotting choices. Without -res those are very good times that crumple the argument Brutes are just slightly ahead since without -res procs into the mix Tankers tend to hover around the 4 minutes on a damage optimized build. Bio Armor probably gets better times as much for the +25% buff as for the sneaky -res aura that pylon tests do so adore.

Heck, tried the Trapdoor three times on my 45% S/L, 75% S/L/E/N /Fire and three times it was chewed and spat out. Can't hover blaster and the debuffs made short work of the defenses.

Yes please. Unlike so many others in this thread I am not a fan to of scouring the map looking for things that are hiding in the rafters, or behind plumbing, or ARE SIMPLY INSIDE THE GEOMETRY, as has happened more than once. We do have the code when only one objective or only a few of the mobs are left but this isn't not always a thing. Maybe it should be a toggle in the options though, for those who don't want it.

It wouldn't happen in a vacuum. The HC crew hasn't been that way.

You might need to compare build notes with America's Angel. Your 'proof' appears to be how your Brute is just barely edging ahead of the Tanker, where America's Brute, also Claws, also with a secondary that does not boost damage directly, does it in 2:30. Suffice it to say I never even got close to those times on a Tanker even on a direct damage boosting Fire Armor with Fiery Embrace and a heavy Burn. maybe by adding -res procs I'll get to 3 minutes as average but if America's Angel did it with a PvP character I'm doubting that they have -res procs slotted in.

Good catch with the Tough 😄 That's a saved slot right there. There's no need to then waste it on 7.5% HP back on Tough though. Change one RES/RECH in Static Shield (or Conductive Shield) for the 7.5% unique and you keep the bonuses and only lose 1% in Psi resistance which you can afford since you'll still be overcapped with a second ATO stack and Barrier (81%, 87% with a second stack, 92% with Barrier, or 93% with a third stack as you simply hit things). I'm not sure on what would be a good use for that slot. Maybe a -KB IO for those times you're jumping and Grounded isn't protecting from KBs? Maybe a second damage proc in Laser Eyes? Just put it where ever you think might be useful.

I have tried over and over to make Tankers do more damage but they seem to average out at 4 minutes (no -res included) in pylon times. More bling, more procs, makes no difference. The average is 4 minutes, period. Some outliers like EM go lower, Titan Weapons pre-nerf, but those were/are outliers in all ATs and not just Tankers. -res procs do shift that goalpost and then the combos who can use more -res procs further it, but that's not an AT thing, it's a skewed test that places a lot of results in literally 1-2 slots in a whole build, and that have actually little influence in the game. I have the actual tests that show the -res procs have little influence either in mission clearing or AV killing. But, they are great for pylons.

For years and years Tankers were this useless AT only die hard fans played while every advice was to just roll a Brute. Tankers get buffed, Brutes become middle of the pack, and Tankers are on the call for nerfs. Seriously?

It's still a 2.24 animation to use. Perhaps against a pylon AKA 2-3 minute long fights, but 2.24 is really a long time to use on a non damaging attack. I suppose it just needs to be done until Insight kicks in again though. What was the lockout again? 15 seconds?

In my own experiments Decimation proc did absolutely nothing. What are your results with it and an empty slot instead?

That's because we're not mathmagicians like you two. But results even a chimp can test and show.

Well, other than the terrible damage when I tested it. Which was odd at the time but it was really bad VS a pylon even though I didn't use the greater psi sword. But yes, incredibly stiff animations where TK punch looks the best IMO, though I also like the hand swords. The -looks- are great, but the darn animations... And yes, or a Stutter TF. Level 40. Lots of giant robots to chew through. Or Tinpex, same.

Lies. Just watching you banter math with Bopper is worth the entry fee. Not many do that anymore.

You said to the creator of the Brutal Mission sim to try it. And it's not being assholes, this isn't Reddit, calm your tatas. Guys thought it was fun and it was.

The argument that 'Sentinels step on Scrapper/Blaster toes' is odd. We already have Brutes, Scrappers and Stalkers who all generously tap dance on each other's toes competing for DPS rankings with small differences in survival (on his own a Brute has as much survival as the Scrapper and Stalker). Removing the target cap from the Sentinel would, IMO, let it step rather on a ranged Tanker mode (without the agro grabbing of a real tank). Just like a Tanker it would do less damage than a real damage class, and, just like the current Tanker, it would be an AoE machine able to throw nukes at every spawn unlike every other ranged that does it every two spawns. So a Blaster would do more damage in ST but if we had a damage parser at the end of a mission the Sentinel might just be there by the Blaster's side because it pulped more mobs. But this requires removing the stupid target caps. It needs to hi the whole pack, not 3/4ths of it.