Frosticus

No one has tackled this yet. To answer we need to look at what the power does. My view is of the power vs a spawn (think ITF runs) rather than vs a single target. -the hairy patch on the ground is the "slow" zone. 10 sec timer 20ft aoe - the little tangles that are trying to immob and do aoe damage. 8ft radius, 5 target max. 10 sec timer. -the big vines have a ranged st attack, and a melee attack ranged st attack: 5 sec cycle, slows melee attack: 5 sec cycle slow and kb So for me: aoe procs - posi, glad, annihlation slow proc - impeded immob proc - trap 6th if you can fit it - kb smashing proc *I haven't tried the troller ATO dam proc in it. But I might. *troller energy font only procs on summon from what I've seen. You might say - "Frosticus, you were just crapping on distortion field aoe and it checks every 10 seconds" Now where creepers is interesting is that it is fueled by defeated foes. At which point the aoe zones start to overlap. So when it pulses every 10 seconds is ends up rolling multiple checks. Toward the end of a fight it isn't uncommon for a pulse to take off half of a purple luts hp. Defeated Foes and now we go full circle to earlier in thread where I was stating that I prefer damage procs in my aoe immob over the consistently low damage approach of enhancing its damage. This is one of the reasons. I don't care what dies as long as something dies to start feeding carrion creepers. The second reason is that our good friends scrappers and brutes, two of the most popular AT's, often can only hit 10 targets. The faster I can help thin out the battle field the more it benefits the team. The third is that 16 enemies are as danagerous at 100% or 1% hp. Bursting a few random ones away is a form of damage mitigation.

You are absolutely right. I take back my assessment of time. I was just a bit sour on the set after tying out distortion field as I've seen it hyped. So the char kind of stalled out and I haven't been playing it much. I use and enjoy Time stop with 3 dam procs and the +mag. Slowed response is also a solid every 2nd spawn power. I agree with you, it is a solid set with regard to procs and benefits decent to well from them. And chrono shift is super.

I didnt mention TA. Similar to storm and poison where procs become set defining game changers - TA screams for 6 procs in acid arrow (a 7th would be nice). So much so that I'd feel like I'm coming up short without them. Other powers proc ok to well. keep in mind I probably have a more narrow focus when defining something as a "monster". I wouldn't put tough and weave on a blaster and then tell tankers to check out my "survivability monster". But to each their own heh. That being said, dark affinity is probably overturned; however, it brings nothing of note to a proc build in that the set itself has no notable proc opportunities, nor access to procs that change powers in interesting ways (ie turning heart of darkness from dark control into a mini nuke). same goes for time. the one power of interest, distortion field, only procs every 10 sec. It wont turn heads. though chrono shift is awesome for the +rech and what it brings to procs found in your primary/epics

how are you casting your seekers? I always cast them right on the target, but I wasn't seeing the proc results that I was hoping for. I was sure excited about the possibility though. I will revisit them on my grav trap as seekers is just about one of my favorite powers.

-as mentioned, storm offers a ton of +rech . You dont *need* all that much to have perma creepers but there are many reasons to have it up before it expires. Namely, the fact that it travels very slowly and it starts a fresh proc on casting. Also seeds is a legit aoe attack with procs. So having that up often is nice. Seeds also bunches enemies so nado and LS are more effective. - I like poison. Partially because everyone craps on it. Partially because poison trap is bordering on nuke territory. And I really like venomous gas, it makes creepers great as it is always on -res/def. Envenom procs a lot. probably more than it is supposed to. Similar to storm, seeds bunches everything making the small aoes of poison more effective. +2 w/bosses comic con s/l is easy. +3 can get dicey, but rarely faceplant. -I like traps too. It doesnt proc as well as you might like but the slow moving nature of the set works well with creepers. You could also aggro the whole game with all the targetable entities Haha.

Apologies. I loaded it and commented before actually watching because I knew it would be a gooder if his creepers do what mine do 🙂 creepers are ...impressive.

Please don't be so asinine as to assume that you are the only testing these things. You are posting results and that is appreciated, but you don't get a special award beyond that. I also don't think I'm making blanket statments any more than you are. I'm simply saying as a base point nerve+ageless is better for a proc build than intuition+something else. Overall enhancement value in a power and global rech agree with me. There are some outlier builds that may be different. I think you tried to cherry pick seismic, but it doesn't work out like you think. Your seismic smash is literally outputting less than mine until you take my recommendation and put the purple IO in it. Which makes your acc garbage, but doesn't matter for siesmic because it is an outlier with acc of 1.2. You also conveniently forgot about the 10% (min) global rech of ageless in my method...ooops. One approach is unequivocally more optimal than the other for procs and overall output. Take a guess which one? Try it out with a 5 proc fissure and see what happens...or any of the 90% plus powers that have standard or lower base acc. You are also moving the goalposts with your clarion argument. Everyone knows mez protection is great. Maybe your build needs it, maybe it doesn't. Mez protection doesn't equate to procs any more than unlimited endurance does. You know what does equate to procs? global recharge. Regardless of whether you personally need it, the math, not your napkin math, indicates it is beneficial. I personally don't care about the extra def debuff, tohit debuff or range. Nor would anyone who is seeking proc potential. At least the extra defense of nerve (approx 4% on my current char) is proactive rather than reactive, but neither matters for this discussion and only matters for one's specific build and content they play. As for powers that only have 2 ish procs, well I'd personally just two slot those procs and move any extra slots that your methods require to elsewhere in the build to further maximize potential. Look, like I said, you don't have a monopoly on testing things and I am genuinely interested in making build improvements. I don't think you share that interest because you are hand-waving away things like in your seismic example. edit: it isnt how I personally slot seismic as I make sure it's internal rech is as close to 14 sec as possible (16 currently). love the creepers

Did you guys alter the PPM system with regard to aoe's? specifically poison envenom/weaken. It is performing much worse on test than the game server with procs

team: plant. especially at 50 with the contagious proc in seeds. makes you feel like a dominator except with all the goodness of a buff/debuff secondary. solo: plant for x8, illusion for big game hunting. fun: gravity. wormhole, lift and propel are all very fun. other control sets I generally lean toward rolling as a dominator

I think I see where the issue lies. We are talking about different things. I'm talking about a ground up design centered around maximizing proc potential, whereas you are talking about squeezing in as many procs as are reasonable that don't require much build compromise. Each dam proc in an aoe immob adds an avg of 9 (8.95) damage per target. They are probably the best example for a controller of slotting procs or dam enhance being a wash. You prefer to whittle. I prefer to burst, even if randomly. A "proc monster" would slot procs, are generalist build would slot dam. Or you could do what I do below and get the most out of the power. A simple example is a power you want to put 5 procs in. My method (nerve, ageless, +5 purple dam) gives the power 45% acc, 66% dam, 10% global rech (min) and 5 procs. I can't find a more efficient path to maximizing said power. But i'm honestly asking for suggestions because procs are pretty fun and you keep telling me there is another way. It isn't until I use 3 or less procs that other avenues start to outshine the method I'm employing (imo). But to me that isn't really a proc monster, but rather a build that uses procs. Clarion is fantastic, but it doesn't benefit procs and controllers specifically have access to many other mez protection powers . Intuition is fantastic, but it doesn't benefit proc slotting as efficiently as nerve. Both clarion and intuition may result in a very well rounded build, but the topic you started is about proc monsters... A build that focuses on procs as a priority usually gives up most 4-6 slot set bonuses. Those are most of the global rech bonuses. So the 20% global rech that ageless offers over its life is of pretty high value outside of a few builds that can really leverage forcefeedback (ie storm, which prob wants ageless anyway) to get powers like: hasten, fade, AM, overgrowth, etc etc. back up and closer to perma. Still an interesting thread and i continue to seek performance gains and efficiencies :)

but do you want/need more control? I havent tried control high enough to see how effective the added damage to controlled enemies is. of the hybrids I find melee has the biggest impact for most squishies. mez protection and solid resistances promote much more confident play across more scenarios. but it depends on what destiny you took as well.

Like I said above it isn't until the 3rd application of roots (1st uncontained, 2nd,3rd contained) where you see damage enhancements edge out procs. And roots is double the base damage of other immobs. +5 purple damage adds more damage enhancement than any combo of acc/dam/end IO's while still permitting the maximum number of procs possible. Damage enhancements only outweigh a proc if they provide more avg damage than the proc. Otherwise you slot a proc. That is literally the exercise of maximizing a proc build. ideally you max out procs and damage enhancing, but imo the proc takes priority if the formula dictates it. Ageless isn't a generalist statement, it is simply the most beneficial destiny slot to a proc focused build regardless of the endurance requirements because it also gives strong global recharge, which every proc build seeks. Every (proc) build has some powers that are more beneficial than others. you want them up as often as possible. Nerve plus conservative IO bonuses gives you 75% global acc. Plus tactics, plus kismet. It is adequate in any power that has standard or above acc. It isn't for plant/poison specifically, but rather for any build that wants to squeeze in the most procs possible to become a proc monster. But there is more than one way to skin a cat :)

I originally thought similar and I would agree about intuition if I were making a generalist controller. But, we are talking about proc focused builds. A proc outweighs a damage enhancement if it provides more avg damage boost to the power. Or if said proc has additional utility that may outweigh said damage enhancement in the overall build. You don't need endurance slotting because a proc build uses ageless. And you don't need acc slotting because you use nerve. So any extra slot gets a +5 purple dam IO, or the next best thing for said power. I have 6 aoe focused powers: poison trap - ideally i'd put over 10 procs in here... fissure - 5 procs that are of high value roots - 6 procs i'd like to have, 5 for sure seeds - 4 procs envenom - 3 procs creepers - 5-6 procs I have 3 st focused powers: strangler - 5 procs paralytic - 4 procs seismic smash - 7 procs i'd like to have. 4-5 for sure The only power in that list that deals significant enough base damage to really want to ensure it is enhanced is seismic smash. Roots does decently with dam enhancing too, and procs at a low rate, but a standard proc is of more value until roughly the 3rd casting (assuming 1st is uncontained and next two are contained). I prefer the burst nature of the procs rather than whitling them down. Dead minions/luts are zero threat. -tohit is of questionable value against +3/4's unless in very large doses plus weaken is small aoe and venomous gas is low value -tohit. +range is of questionable value to poison as you want to leverage venomous gas.

20% to what damage though? the vast majority of my aoe damage is being generated through non damage or low damage powers. Procs already make up nearly 70% of my aoe damage output between poison trap (6 procs), carrion creepers (5 procs), fissure (5 procs), envenom (3 procs), seeds (4 procs) and roots (5 procs). The switch to nerve allowed me to reallocate 8 slots throughout the build due to not needing to slot acc. It allowed an addition proc in nearly every power that i use. I'll post a herostats damage report from a farm map tmw.

I'm now trying out nerve alpha because it seems silly to waste slots on acc enhancements when you could put more procs into a power. Between nerve and set bonuses you shouldn't need acc slotting. Also boosts defense a bit saving more slots in the build for proc potential.

I largely agree. I've wanted to like the poison set for a long time, but it really doesn't have much to celebrate. I really wanted a poison/water defender but just couldn't make a go of it. I specifically went plant because it really helps leverage poisons strengths and covers many of its shortcomings. Poison can really benefit plant too.

yes, it behaves the same with a couple notable differences that make it pretty gold for me verses the traps version. Also why it shines best on trollers and corrs. 1. It takes pbaoe damage sets. Trollers have very limited access to the Armageddon set and/or the Fury set. 2. It takes the troller/corrupter ATO damage proc 3. It has an extremely fast cast time. Whereas the traps version takes forever and a day the poison version is a hair over a second. 3 purple damage procs in a fast casting decent sized aoe on a set that you are in close anyway (venomous gas). I'm quite pleased by it so far. Don't get me wrong traps is great, but I personally only use poison trap against AV's and such because it so slow to get out. The poison version is so fast and the procs are instantaneous. It is a legit aoe damage power with procs. True, poison doesn't have much else going on, but envenom, weaken and neuro breath all proc well for the procs they have.

It's just the comic con s/l outdoor farm. If I just stand there usually by the third pulse of the trap the whole spawn will be dead (even cons). I might have used envenom first? i can't recall now, but everyone is under the effect of venomous gas which does have an achilies in it (cause what else would i slot in it even with the low proc rate?)

Poison trap > Sup Will of controller psi dam, Armagedon Fire dam, Unbreakable Constraint Smash dam, Obliteration smash dam, Fury -res*, Generic acc/rech The acc/rech will prob be replaced with a +5 acc IO once the global rech is in place *trying out the -res proc now as it should hopefully benefit creepers and fissure more than just another dam proc in the power

Something to consider

I built a rad/electric on test with this intention. only uses heavily proc'd snipe (w/achiles) from the primary and aim. And then proc'd out every melee attack in elec (minus thunderstrike) as they all have great dpa and a damage aura. It was less impressive than I'd hoped. 500+ dps vs pylon (when I survived) sounds impressive but there are plenty of scrappers pulling higher single target damage let alone how much tougher they are.

Basically what hampers it is the lack/low -regen debuffing. If say paralytic hold* also had -500% regen then I'd personally rank the set quite high. *I've advocated for poison trap to be replaced with the traps version but I no longer hold that opinion. I actually like poison poison trap right now.

yah I realized that after. I just use popmenu freebies. I got a taste of the potential for that combo and it is pretty obscene. I'm working on incarnates on the game server now.

I went with heat for my demon/storm during leveling and was pretty happy with it. Between bonefire and freezing rain I could make popcorn anywhere and i like fireball. However, you lose an epic shield which can be a big boost to survivability.

Sir Myshkin did some additional testing on poison trap (traps version) and had good results for it vs groups. I was just looking at it vs a single target. It might be worth considering a closer look at the poison version for procs if for no other reason than it has a way faster cast time and it takes a whole host of other procs too like fury -res.