Frosticus

Every day you hear people saying how badly poison performs. Heck I'm even guilty of it in the past. It definitely has a lot of skippable powers. I'd only take 3-4 powers from it if I could (defender could), but those 3 powers are very impressive in what they do. It's funny because people praise storm based on 4 powers (steamy, freezing, LS, nado). They praise the power of cold with only 4 powers (fog, benumb, sleet, HL). The reality is, procs take poison from being meh, to one of the strongest sets available. The term proc monster gets thrown around a lot, this set is the real deal. Anyway: Envenom: 30% -res/def on target, 15% -res/def 8ft aoe. This sounds like a reasonably decent power. It procs at 67% on 3 procs, with a pretty fast cast time. That makes it a great power. Poison Trap: this is a goddam nuke with aoe hold. It actually recharges fast enough to use every spawn (60 sec base) even on fast teams. If you like procs and you want to build a "proc monster" this is the best proc power in the game bar none. Venomous Gas: Probably the best power in the game that requires no slotting. 15ft aoe autohit -res/def/dam/tohit. All with respectable values, with the -res being the star. *Weaken: I don't use weaken, because it doesn't make me clear things faster, but it is actually a great power. *Paralytic: fires off 4 procs regularly. As good as any power like this You need to dedicate !!8!! additional enhancement slots to become an offensive powerhouse. If you care about return on investment, I can't think of a better combo. I look at poison as an offensive set, so I generally compare it to the king of offence - storm I've done storm. I posted about my demon/storm in the pylon thread. It is unreal. Insane even. I'm telling you that poison brings as much or more to team efficiency than storm. It solo's spawns as fast or faster thanks to poison trap nuke and has enough mitigation between venomous gas and poison trap to tackle a lot of content. It however, does not bring as much single target damage as a storm potentially can. But, it is considerably safer than storm vs an AV* *Most people don't understand how -dam debuff works. Between weaken and venomous you apply 30% -dam. This is then multiplied by the -res. Envenom and Gas apply -48.75. Envenom procs achilies and poison trap procs fury of glad at a very high rate. So anywhere from -48.75 to -88.75 resistance debuff. Which turns the 30% -dam up to 44.6%-56.6%. Weaken also debuffs a lot of behind the scenes mechanics overall making most enemies much more manageable. This is a pretty noticeable impact against +2 AV's. It starts to taper off higher than that. How I roll plant/poison/stone, which beyond being extremely fun and packed full of synergy, is maybe the most thematic character I've ever made (really nice for me as I'm typically a power gamer). Plant was originally designed as a villain set. If you read the power descriptions it isn't "nice" and "fluffy". Carrion creepers literally feeds off of slain foes. So poison fits the mould of plant super well to me at least. Plant is ridiculous. You don't even need a secondary to make a good plant character, so a lot what this build achieves is either due to plant and the potent synergies between plant and poison. So ymmv. Stone epic takes procs and runs with them as well or better than any epic set. Performance: So how bout some performance metrics? I don't have videos for you, but I'll post you my build so if you too are a reasonably skilled player you can expect great results. Farm: I clear the comic con s/l space map at +4 w/ bosses in less than 6 mins consistently. The build isn't completed yet. I think it will get down in the 5.5 avg range with a judgement power and lore used over time. I haven't died on it in the last 20 or so clears. So the build is pretty stable. It is a snooze fest at +3, but requires active playing at +4. I might make an insp combining macro cause all i do it just use the drops as they come now. Pylons: I take down pylons without insp/temps/etc (scrapper rules) in 2:50-3:30 consistently (310-350 dps due to proc variance). The build has no pets cause outside of MM's and a few unique troller pets (PA and haunt) I personally think pets are a waste. Surviving the pylon is a non issue for the build. Build is intended for 45+ content. Perma hasten, capped hp when you fight, proc damage thru the roof. Use your second build slot for low level play.

Poison takes a bit to get it clicking and it definitely isn't for everyone. It could use some tweaks as the small aoe's can be a challenge to use effectively. However, it is one of the strongest sets available for a fast moving team. Always on aoe 25% -res, huge -res on a boss or two, check out my poison trap testing for aoe damage. It isn't that great at keeping the user alive, but in general IO's add a lot more survivability to soft builds than they add offense to tough builds. Surviving just isn't an issue in most teams.

Soulbound proc? yes absolutely great choice. I don't really use the st confuse late game. Great power while leveling though. Fearsome stare is usually enough to get into the mix. I might be mistaken, but I think the contagious proc alerts enemies, so up to you if the aoe factor would be worthwhile vs sneaky single confusing. ya I use a second build slot for examplaring on my main toons. Other than the inconvenience of initially slotting the second build it allows the best of both worlds with minimal compromise in build power. be careful with spiritual, it can mess with your proc rates. Sometimes worth it, sometimes not.

Back on live it was determined that creepers travels below the surface. But an invisible pet along the ground makes sense too. I don't think it is attached to you, but does follow. You can clearly see this behaviour if you leave a couple enemies alive and then move on to the next spawn. Creepers will take way longer to join you as it stays fighting the remainders until it either kills them or disengages (like a pet would).

The procs attached to the aoe power *seem* to trigger the most in creepers. -so aoe procs, immob, ato dam. annihilation triggered 47 times over the life. Same x8 scenario as before. -The slow proc barely triggers at all. 18 times. -Kb dam proc is negligible Best proc scenario for creepers vs groups: expect to see 40+ of each proc occur over the life. posi, javelin, annihlation, ATO dam, trap. Obviously these numbers could vary significantly with each run. I'll run a few more times and see if anything interesting happens, but dam it takes a long time to parse the logs for creepers. Is there a faster way?

Couple notes: - extra slots in health, use them as you see fit - some people like to use their st hold as a hold, others as an attack. Up to you really. Between grasp, paralytic, poison trap, and seismic you can stack a lot of hold. - The aoe immob is of questionable value to a pbaoe centric build. - I don't love energy font, but the stun will stack with heart of darkness. - should be perma hasten/haunt once the 20% global rech of ageless and the force feedback procs kick in. - cycle melee alpha and rune of protection for high uptime mez protection + big survivability boost - doesn't exemp below lvl 45 well at all haha. - poison trap and fissure are the main two powers so that's why nerve over intuition. If you are willing to take a small hit to them, then intuition is a strong option, but you'll need to rework s/l def. - I can't be bothered trying to keep the dog alive and it usually doesn't keep up with me/team when it gets rolling. http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1474&c=695&a=1390&f=HEX&dc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

On a x8 farm moving at moderate pace: creepers proc'd Sup Will psi dam 49 times over the life of creepers (130 sec?) poison trap proc'd Sup Will psi dam 67 times over a 2 min period casting when PT was up. More analysis would be beneficial. But I like that PT goes when I want it to whereas creepers just work on their own volition.

I'm not opposed to sharing a build. I don't really have one for my dark/poison as I'm still levelling it. I'll post what I'm striving for though. It is subject to change if it starts working out differently than I'm expecting in the end game, but so far it plays similar to my plant/poison. I take the dog while levelling. I just mean on a 50+ build the pet doesn't really fit my playstyle anymore.

It doesn't proc particularly well. 10 sec interval, ~15% chance per standard proc. It does stack with the aoe hold of poison trap quite well though. Such long recharge that I tend to steer clear of aoe holds, even if the pulsing ones are better than one shot ones for control.

Well I'm still honestly fine tuning both. But here's what I can say with decent confidence: -Poison trap procs on detonation like/similar to an aoe click. And then has the 10 sec activation period after that. Which is pretty sweet. The initial detonation has an aoe for the hold of 25ft and an aoe of 15ft for the damage. After that both damage and hold are 15ft. I've been rolling with 3 purple damage procs, 2 regular and 1 -res proc. Internal recharge at 48 sec and about 18 sec with global and FF proc. It is fantastic. I love the procs. -The explosive strike only procs when the tall vines use their melee attack. It isn't a bad return when several of them are out. I've had it in there a long time. The ATO proc rolls when it does the aoe immob. When it gets going it is...impressive and creepers are potentially always active. I'll post a pic of the combat log tonight if I log in. The number of times the ATO could proc in a minute vs full spawns is huge in either power. I'll try to run a farm at some point and count the combat log for both scenarios.

Creepers slotting: I adjusted my slotting. I didn't think I'd ever pull the ATO proc out of poison trap, but I think I will stick with it for awhile. procs: posi, javelin, annihilation, trap, superior troller ATO psi dam, ragnarok dam/rech +5 I have the nerve to use nerve alpha, so ymmv.

yes. it's why the heal proc is lame in it too.

contagious confusion proc in seeds will confuse most anything. Venomous gas and envenom almost make confused mobs too effective. Minions sometimes vaporize for zero xp ha. It is safe to drop trap. You wanna be in the middle to maximize venomous gas anyway. try melee hybrid.

Haha yep. I have a pbaoe nuke-troller in the works. Dark/poison is as you describe. I dont like spring leap personally. I tried it with 4 dam procs but for whatever reason it didnt click for me. I might revisit it with a target location bind. . Fissure fits in like a dream. Single target is more impressive than you might think as haunts are decent damage with two procs added. The dog despite high damage is skippable imo.

No one has tackled this yet. To answer we need to look at what the power does. My view is of the power vs a spawn (think ITF runs) rather than vs a single target. -the hairy patch on the ground is the "slow" zone. 10 sec timer 20ft aoe - the little tangles that are trying to immob and do aoe damage. 8ft radius, 5 target max. 10 sec timer. -the big vines have a ranged st attack, and a melee attack ranged st attack: 5 sec cycle, slows melee attack: 5 sec cycle slow and kb So for me: aoe procs - posi, glad, annihlation slow proc - impeded immob proc - trap 6th if you can fit it - kb smashing proc *I haven't tried the troller ATO dam proc in it. But I might. *troller energy font only procs on summon from what I've seen. You might say - "Frosticus, you were just crapping on distortion field aoe and it checks every 10 seconds" Now where creepers is interesting is that it is fueled by defeated foes. At which point the aoe zones start to overlap. So when it pulses every 10 seconds is ends up rolling multiple checks. Toward the end of a fight it isn't uncommon for a pulse to take off half of a purple luts hp. Defeated Foes and now we go full circle to earlier in thread where I was stating that I prefer damage procs in my aoe immob over the consistently low damage approach of enhancing its damage. This is one of the reasons. I don't care what dies as long as something dies to start feeding carrion creepers. The second reason is that our good friends scrappers and brutes, two of the most popular AT's, often can only hit 10 targets. The faster I can help thin out the battle field the more it benefits the team. The third is that 16 enemies are as danagerous at 100% or 1% hp. Bursting a few random ones away is a form of damage mitigation.

You are absolutely right. I take back my assessment of time. I was just a bit sour on the set after tying out distortion field as I've seen it hyped. So the char kind of stalled out and I haven't been playing it much. I use and enjoy Time stop with 3 dam procs and the +mag. Slowed response is also a solid every 2nd spawn power. I agree with you, it is a solid set with regard to procs and benefits decent to well from them. And chrono shift is super.

I didnt mention TA. Similar to storm and poison where procs become set defining game changers - TA screams for 6 procs in acid arrow (a 7th would be nice). So much so that I'd feel like I'm coming up short without them. Other powers proc ok to well. keep in mind I probably have a more narrow focus when defining something as a "monster". I wouldn't put tough and weave on a blaster and then tell tankers to check out my "survivability monster". But to each their own heh. That being said, dark affinity is probably overturned; however, it brings nothing of note to a proc build in that the set itself has no notable proc opportunities, nor access to procs that change powers in interesting ways (ie turning heart of darkness from dark control into a mini nuke). same goes for time. the one power of interest, distortion field, only procs every 10 sec. It wont turn heads. though chrono shift is awesome for the +rech and what it brings to procs found in your primary/epics

how are you casting your seekers? I always cast them right on the target, but I wasn't seeing the proc results that I was hoping for. I was sure excited about the possibility though. I will revisit them on my grav trap as seekers is just about one of my favorite powers.

-as mentioned, storm offers a ton of +rech . You dont *need* all that much to have perma creepers but there are many reasons to have it up before it expires. Namely, the fact that it travels very slowly and it starts a fresh proc on casting. Also seeds is a legit aoe attack with procs. So having that up often is nice. Seeds also bunches enemies so nado and LS are more effective. - I like poison. Partially because everyone craps on it. Partially because poison trap is bordering on nuke territory. And I really like venomous gas, it makes creepers great as it is always on -res/def. Envenom procs a lot. probably more than it is supposed to. Similar to storm, seeds bunches everything making the small aoes of poison more effective. +2 w/bosses comic con s/l is easy. +3 can get dicey, but rarely faceplant. -I like traps too. It doesnt proc as well as you might like but the slow moving nature of the set works well with creepers. You could also aggro the whole game with all the targetable entities Haha.

Apologies. I loaded it and commented before actually watching because I knew it would be a gooder if his creepers do what mine do 🙂 creepers are ...impressive.

Please don't be so asinine as to assume that you are the only testing these things. You are posting results and that is appreciated, but you don't get a special award beyond that. I also don't think I'm making blanket statments any more than you are. I'm simply saying as a base point nerve+ageless is better for a proc build than intuition+something else. Overall enhancement value in a power and global rech agree with me. There are some outlier builds that may be different. I think you tried to cherry pick seismic, but it doesn't work out like you think. Your seismic smash is literally outputting less than mine until you take my recommendation and put the purple IO in it. Which makes your acc garbage, but doesn't matter for siesmic because it is an outlier with acc of 1.2. You also conveniently forgot about the 10% (min) global rech of ageless in my method...ooops. One approach is unequivocally more optimal than the other for procs and overall output. Take a guess which one? Try it out with a 5 proc fissure and see what happens...or any of the 90% plus powers that have standard or lower base acc. You are also moving the goalposts with your clarion argument. Everyone knows mez protection is great. Maybe your build needs it, maybe it doesn't. Mez protection doesn't equate to procs any more than unlimited endurance does. You know what does equate to procs? global recharge. Regardless of whether you personally need it, the math, not your napkin math, indicates it is beneficial. I personally don't care about the extra def debuff, tohit debuff or range. Nor would anyone who is seeking proc potential. At least the extra defense of nerve (approx 4% on my current char) is proactive rather than reactive, but neither matters for this discussion and only matters for one's specific build and content they play. As for powers that only have 2 ish procs, well I'd personally just two slot those procs and move any extra slots that your methods require to elsewhere in the build to further maximize potential. Look, like I said, you don't have a monopoly on testing things and I am genuinely interested in making build improvements. I don't think you share that interest because you are hand-waving away things like in your seismic example. edit: it isnt how I personally slot seismic as I make sure it's internal rech is as close to 14 sec as possible (16 currently). love the creepers

Did you guys alter the PPM system with regard to aoe's? specifically poison envenom/weaken. It is performing much worse on test than the game server with procs

team: plant. especially at 50 with the contagious proc in seeds. makes you feel like a dominator except with all the goodness of a buff/debuff secondary. solo: plant for x8, illusion for big game hunting. fun: gravity. wormhole, lift and propel are all very fun. other control sets I generally lean toward rolling as a dominator

I think I see where the issue lies. We are talking about different things. I'm talking about a ground up design centered around maximizing proc potential, whereas you are talking about squeezing in as many procs as are reasonable that don't require much build compromise. Each dam proc in an aoe immob adds an avg of 9 (8.95) damage per target. They are probably the best example for a controller of slotting procs or dam enhance being a wash. You prefer to whittle. I prefer to burst, even if randomly. A "proc monster" would slot procs, are generalist build would slot dam. Or you could do what I do below and get the most out of the power. A simple example is a power you want to put 5 procs in. My method (nerve, ageless, +5 purple dam) gives the power 45% acc, 66% dam, 10% global rech (min) and 5 procs. I can't find a more efficient path to maximizing said power. But i'm honestly asking for suggestions because procs are pretty fun and you keep telling me there is another way. It isn't until I use 3 or less procs that other avenues start to outshine the method I'm employing (imo). But to me that isn't really a proc monster, but rather a build that uses procs. Clarion is fantastic, but it doesn't benefit procs and controllers specifically have access to many other mez protection powers . Intuition is fantastic, but it doesn't benefit proc slotting as efficiently as nerve. Both clarion and intuition may result in a very well rounded build, but the topic you started is about proc monsters... A build that focuses on procs as a priority usually gives up most 4-6 slot set bonuses. Those are most of the global rech bonuses. So the 20% global rech that ageless offers over its life is of pretty high value outside of a few builds that can really leverage forcefeedback (ie storm, which prob wants ageless anyway) to get powers like: hasten, fade, AM, overgrowth, etc etc. back up and closer to perma. Still an interesting thread and i continue to seek performance gains and efficiencies :)

but do you want/need more control? I havent tried control high enough to see how effective the added damage to controlled enemies is. of the hybrids I find melee has the biggest impact for most squishies. mez protection and solid resistances promote much more confident play across more scenarios. but it depends on what destiny you took as well.