Frosticus

Like I said above it isn't until the 3rd application of roots (1st uncontained, 2nd,3rd contained) where you see damage enhancements edge out procs. And roots is double the base damage of other immobs. +5 purple damage adds more damage enhancement than any combo of acc/dam/end IO's while still permitting the maximum number of procs possible. Damage enhancements only outweigh a proc if they provide more avg damage than the proc. Otherwise you slot a proc. That is literally the exercise of maximizing a proc build. ideally you max out procs and damage enhancing, but imo the proc takes priority if the formula dictates it. Ageless isn't a generalist statement, it is simply the most beneficial destiny slot to a proc focused build regardless of the endurance requirements because it also gives strong global recharge, which every proc build seeks. Every (proc) build has some powers that are more beneficial than others. you want them up as often as possible. Nerve plus conservative IO bonuses gives you 75% global acc. Plus tactics, plus kismet. It is adequate in any power that has standard or above acc. It isn't for plant/poison specifically, but rather for any build that wants to squeeze in the most procs possible to become a proc monster. But there is more than one way to skin a cat :)

I originally thought similar and I would agree about intuition if I were making a generalist controller. But, we are talking about proc focused builds. A proc outweighs a damage enhancement if it provides more avg damage boost to the power. Or if said proc has additional utility that may outweigh said damage enhancement in the overall build. You don't need endurance slotting because a proc build uses ageless. And you don't need acc slotting because you use nerve. So any extra slot gets a +5 purple dam IO, or the next best thing for said power. I have 6 aoe focused powers: poison trap - ideally i'd put over 10 procs in here... fissure - 5 procs that are of high value roots - 6 procs i'd like to have, 5 for sure seeds - 4 procs envenom - 3 procs creepers - 5-6 procs I have 3 st focused powers: strangler - 5 procs paralytic - 4 procs seismic smash - 7 procs i'd like to have. 4-5 for sure The only power in that list that deals significant enough base damage to really want to ensure it is enhanced is seismic smash. Roots does decently with dam enhancing too, and procs at a low rate, but a standard proc is of more value until roughly the 3rd casting (assuming 1st is uncontained and next two are contained). I prefer the burst nature of the procs rather than whitling them down. Dead minions/luts are zero threat. -tohit is of questionable value against +3/4's unless in very large doses plus weaken is small aoe and venomous gas is low value -tohit. +range is of questionable value to poison as you want to leverage venomous gas.

20% to what damage though? the vast majority of my aoe damage is being generated through non damage or low damage powers. Procs already make up nearly 70% of my aoe damage output between poison trap (6 procs), carrion creepers (5 procs), fissure (5 procs), envenom (3 procs), seeds (4 procs) and roots (5 procs). The switch to nerve allowed me to reallocate 8 slots throughout the build due to not needing to slot acc. It allowed an addition proc in nearly every power that i use. I'll post a herostats damage report from a farm map tmw.

I'm now trying out nerve alpha because it seems silly to waste slots on acc enhancements when you could put more procs into a power. Between nerve and set bonuses you shouldn't need acc slotting. Also boosts defense a bit saving more slots in the build for proc potential.

I largely agree. I've wanted to like the poison set for a long time, but it really doesn't have much to celebrate. I really wanted a poison/water defender but just couldn't make a go of it. I specifically went plant because it really helps leverage poisons strengths and covers many of its shortcomings. Poison can really benefit plant too.

yes, it behaves the same with a couple notable differences that make it pretty gold for me verses the traps version. Also why it shines best on trollers and corrs. 1. It takes pbaoe damage sets. Trollers have very limited access to the Armageddon set and/or the Fury set. 2. It takes the troller/corrupter ATO damage proc 3. It has an extremely fast cast time. Whereas the traps version takes forever and a day the poison version is a hair over a second. 3 purple damage procs in a fast casting decent sized aoe on a set that you are in close anyway (venomous gas). I'm quite pleased by it so far. Don't get me wrong traps is great, but I personally only use poison trap against AV's and such because it so slow to get out. The poison version is so fast and the procs are instantaneous. It is a legit aoe damage power with procs. True, poison doesn't have much else going on, but envenom, weaken and neuro breath all proc well for the procs they have.

It's just the comic con s/l outdoor farm. If I just stand there usually by the third pulse of the trap the whole spawn will be dead (even cons). I might have used envenom first? i can't recall now, but everyone is under the effect of venomous gas which does have an achilies in it (cause what else would i slot in it even with the low proc rate?)

Poison trap > Sup Will of controller psi dam, Armagedon Fire dam, Unbreakable Constraint Smash dam, Obliteration smash dam, Fury -res*, Generic acc/rech The acc/rech will prob be replaced with a +5 acc IO once the global rech is in place *trying out the -res proc now as it should hopefully benefit creepers and fissure more than just another dam proc in the power

Something to consider

I built a rad/electric on test with this intention. only uses heavily proc'd snipe (w/achiles) from the primary and aim. And then proc'd out every melee attack in elec (minus thunderstrike) as they all have great dpa and a damage aura. It was less impressive than I'd hoped. 500+ dps vs pylon (when I survived) sounds impressive but there are plenty of scrappers pulling higher single target damage let alone how much tougher they are.

Basically what hampers it is the lack/low -regen debuffing. If say paralytic hold* also had -500% regen then I'd personally rank the set quite high. *I've advocated for poison trap to be replaced with the traps version but I no longer hold that opinion. I actually like poison poison trap right now.

yah I realized that after. I just use popmenu freebies. I got a taste of the potential for that combo and it is pretty obscene. I'm working on incarnates on the game server now.

I went with heat for my demon/storm during leveling and was pretty happy with it. Between bonefire and freezing rain I could make popcorn anywhere and i like fireball. However, you lose an epic shield which can be a big boost to survivability.

Sir Myshkin did some additional testing on poison trap (traps version) and had good results for it vs groups. I was just looking at it vs a single target. It might be worth considering a closer look at the poison version for procs if for no other reason than it has a way faster cast time and it takes a whole host of other procs too like fury -res.

Ya I was trying not to get too engaged earlier in our conversation as I felt I was sitting on something pretty sweet. I thought it would peg over 1k dps. I still think it could. I mean my main pc just died a couple weeks ago so Im using a laptop that can barely eek out 20fps on lowest settings and I'm surely not as tight on execution as I could be. Plus there are still many possible build tweaks from procs to seeing which pet benefits most from soulbound buildup (I want to eventually try it in hell on earth). Also I'm not attacking nearly as much as I could/should be which would directly translate to more -res for all the pets/summons and additional personal dps. I'm confident there are some other builds out there that can push unreal numbers. Getting the damage down in game is the issue though. For instance I'm not happy that I had to take provoke. I felt that my personal aggro should keep things focused on me. I mean my dps is way higher than any of my pets when you attribute the storm powers to me. But AV/EB/pylons keep focusing on my pets sooner rather than later in most fights. I'm not sure why people shy away from MM's. The first character I ever seriously put into the pylon game was a bots/storm and for the time it performed exceptionally well. I eventually moved on to ill/cold troller due to some bugs in the bots, but I still feel that is an incredible combo once you factor in the -regen from assault bot and could potentially tackle most anything.

Yes to this! changed up my two favourite sets so much for the better (storm and traps).

dunno how crazy thugs might get with guassian, but I jumped over to test on my demon/storm/mace to get an idea of where it could end up due to the force-multiplying synergy of the build. Tiny bit lower than I thought to be honest (vacuum performance vs actual play i suppose), but the build isn't complete so I have something to strive for on the actual character. 900+ dps (sub 50 sec) vs pylon is not uncommon for the build.

demon/storm/mace pets in passive while I taunt, cast hell on earth to the prince, start timer when the first little monkey is pooped out and makes for the pylon and i command attack. No bodyguard used unless I take a hit cause another will kill me. Test server (mine just dinged 50, wanted to get a taste of the potential) T4, musculature, degen, ageless No hybrid crafted No lore No insp, temp, etc Definitely has a bit more potential. I didn't bother with crafting a hybrid, nor made any refinement tweaks, and I can't find superior ATO's on test. I wanted to use lash, but the short range opens my pets up to the aoe so crack whip it is, but even that can still get your pets aoe'd. 15 runs best 3 - 48-51 sec 5 - 53-60 sec 4 - 70-80 sec (various pet wipes) 3 - 2-3min (near total pet wipes) 3 bonus runs petless (whip/storm) no insp, temps, etc best 2 - 201 sec, 209 sec (pylon died same time as me haha) worst - dead Petless - 319 dps Best w/ pets - 926 dps http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1468&c=690&a=1380&f=HEX&dc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

King? Sure storm benefits illusion pretty well, but illusion brings relatively nothing to storm. That's a strong performer because both sets are individually strong performers. There is no real synergy beyond them being strong in and of themselves.

I didn't check the pet combat log. I just sat webnading a blue con lut (and later some green minions). damage procs in the above mentioned powers were not doing much. I had hopes that a proc in mortar would be similar to a proc in lightning storm, but it doesn't seem so. I may try them out vs some full groups though. And I haven't extensively tested, just put in like 15 min. So ymmv.

No alpha as the troller is stalled at lvl 41. As far as rech goes: mortar - 1 lvl 30 rech poison trap - 1 lvl 30 rech seekers - 3 lvl 30 rech trops - no rech

You'll likely be disappointed with your testing results for traps. -damage procs in acid mortar make no appreciable dent in a single blue con lut. over the life. Even with 2 mortars out. -achiles is a bit better just based on the fact that it lasts awhile when it triggers. -damage proc in seekers (i had hopes for this one) i was unable to see it trigger in 10 or so applications. I use a target bind to summon them on target. -procs in caltrops are nearly useless. I still keep the -res one in there though. I usually triggers once over the life of the power (vs 1 target). -damage procs in poison trap seem useless -i haven't tried procs in either of the mines tried them out on my grav/traps as I'm always seeking a bit more damage for an otherwise perfect pairing.

Something i like on my MM is that I split mark of supremacy into 3 sets of 2. =30% rech. Greatly lowers reliance on purple set bonuses which can be beneficial overall.

blasters. but I feel like I'm lumping their other recent buffs in and then comparing them to blasters of old. So that might not be accurate.

If you look at an ill/cold that pretty easily pushes 400+ dps vs a pylon and then take away -regen of benumb you still have close to 300 dps coming from illusion and personal attacks. Now /storm is busier than /cold but I suspect your above estimation of 600 of the 700 total dps coming from storm for your ill/storm is not quite accurate. Also keep in mind that illusion is a bit inflated vs pylons as you get 100% containment damage. Not a huge issue, but it does skew the results vs what you'd normally achieve against a hard target. That said, there is already a merc/storm in another thread that has surpassed 500dps vs a pylon. There is good reason to think that either a different primary and/or different optimization could see decent gains. edit: defender storm also has stronger freezing rain and stronger lightning storm in addition to stronger leadership/weave/epic powers so softcapping is quite a bit easier allowing more slotting flexibility. if your /storm is genuinely contributing 600 dps then a storm/son defender would have no issue eclipsing that just by force multiplying the storm powers.