Hjarki

I think 'unenhanced' is a significant wrinkle. Stone Melee is the most direct comparison. With +100% from enhancements, Jab and Stone Fist would deal approximately the same damage. With +145% from enhancements/other sources, Seismic Smash and Knockout Blow would deal equivalent damage and with +198% from enhancements/other sources, Haymaker and Heavy Mallet do the same damage. So I'd argue that Brutes aren't likely to choose Super Strength given the damage bonuses from Fury unless they're primarily concerned about something other than single target damage. Neither set is particularly good at AE, but Super Strength is better even without Rage. However, Rage does increase all the other AE the player does - and there are good options (unlike with single target). I think there's also a 'good against remotes' aspect to this discussion. As noted above, bringing significant +damage from other sources rapidly diminishes the value of Rage. Spending 1/6th of your time in "can't hold aggro" mode is a big problem for most tanks in a team setting. I suppose a farm toon would be possible... if you can deal with over-slotting for defense so you can survive the -20% defense crash. Pylon tests and fights that are like pylon tests - such as AV/GM - would work. But in an AV/GM fight, you're probably the guy who need to hold threat and it's likely you have +damage buffs from somewhere (various Assault if nothing else).

I absolutely would not skip the T1 Immobilize on a Dark/Storm build. It's essential if you're going to fight an AV to lock them in place. It's also generally better than the Hold for neutralizing single targets because (a) it's Mag 4, not Mag 3 (b) -hit + Immobilize is a de facto Hold for most enemies (c) it activates more quickly and (d) it recharges more quickly. Since Dark/Storm isn't about dealing personal damage but arranging the battlefield so your pets can do optimal damage, the T1 Immobilize isn't the 'skippable' power it might be in other combinations. For Dark/Storm, I'd say the core powers are Shadowy Binds, Living Shadows, Haunt and Umbra Beast. The rest are 'skippable' in the sense that they're primarily useful for slotting opportunities rather than useful in their own right: Dark Grasp. As a control, it's only Mag 3 so of limited use. While many sets will proc out their ST Hold for damage, Dark Grasp is not one of the better Holds for this sort of application and the amount of personal damage the Dark/Storm will do is trivial compared to the amount of pet damage. Possess. Another victim of the Mag 3-isn't-all-that-useful issue, this can hold Coercive Persuasion so it's almost always taken for that alone - even if it's rarely used. Fearsome Stare. This can slot Cloud Senses, but it's a bit over-the-top on -hit debuffs and rapidly falls by the wayside at higher levels when you've already got Living Shadows and Gale. Heart of Darkness. Great on a Dominator, but generally just a good way to get yourself killed on a Controller. While you can technically stack two different PBAoE disorient, this is inconsistent with how the rest of the build tends to play (not just strictly at range but mandated at range due to Cones) and unnecessary given the soft control options of -hit and KB. Shadow Field. Undoubtably the best AE Hold received by any Controller, this is primarily useful for its debuff effects. As such, it's a somewhat useful power with great slotting opportunities. However, it's recharge is too long to use every spawn. Umbra Beast does significantly more damage than Singularity (which throws primarily control effects rather than damage effects).

Dark Control is a near-perfect pairing for Storm. Storm really needs a -kb/-fly AE Immobilize and Dark delivers. Dark has excellent slotting opportunities due to -hit and a Confuse. Dark has the best non-Phantom Army pet and it has Haunt to take alpha strikes. It has the most useful AE Hold, since it's also a debuff field. Rotating Living Shadows and Gale effectively neuters most spawns with little risk to the Controller. That being said, it's very late developing. Virtually all of the damage it deals comes from the last three powers you get: Umbra Beast, Tornado and Lightning Storm.

Kinetics' heal is twice as large and twice as fast. The fact that it heals around the target is actually an advantage with the melee-centric Beasts, since you can just target a Beast and heal it at range while you'd need to be close proximity to heal it with Dark.

With Beasts/Kin, I think the key realization is to operate on a sliding scale of mitigation vs. damage. In full damage mode, you've got all pets attacking, no Fortify and you largely just stand back and watch the chaos. In full mitigation mode, you've got half your pets sitting in Bodyguard and you're using Fortify to keep the rest alive. Remember, Kinetics isn't just Fulcrum Shift for a lot of +damage - it also has significant -damage, ally buffs and the best multi-target heal around.

Stalker is one of the least 'synergistic' ATs because the mechanics give all the sets a degree of commonality they don't have in their native form. Stalker primaries all have Assassinate, all have Build Up and are generally stripped of their 'unique' components. Stalkers secondaries don't have taunt/damage auras and do have Hide. So building a Stalker tends to be more about combining power with power than it is fitting together abilities so strengths cover weaknesses.

In my experience, this is not the case. On a build without a mass Immobilize, enemies mainly just run away from the Tornado and out-range the Lightning Storm so you're not getting the damage benefits. On a build without a strong single target Immobilize, AV tend to flee as well. So most of the time, you're left with your normal single target rotation. More importantly, Tornado/Lightning Storm deal their damage against random targets rather than the targets you need to focus on. So even when they deal a lot of generalized damage, you can't really use them for what 'single target damage' is good for. Theft of Essence tends to just make Dehydrate endurance-neutral rather than restore endurance. While this does mean you won't run out of endurance as quickly, it's not really going to keep your build going in the absence of more comprehensive end-management schemes. Achilles Heel is another thing I've tossed by the wayside. As I mentioned above, you're not really getting pylon performance against anything that isn't either a pylon or made into one by Immobilize. I'm far more concerned with the various strays/runners in the remainder of an AE spawn than I am trying to slightly tweak an AV/GM fight - especially given that those fights tend to involve full teams where the non-stackability of Achilles' procs comes into play. What I don't like about Dehydrate is that it screws up your rotation. It's just far too common for your rotation to stutter to a halt because you can't use Dehydrate without losing the stacks you need for Water Jet. Since I find the healing unnecessary, it just ends up being a power that I never use.

O2 Boost can be useful for slotting opportunities and it does help in team settings. Snow Storm is actually very important for grounding fliers since almost everything you do is ground-based. Hurricane is a great power early on, but diminishes in importance later. I will make some additional notes: Dehydrate. I find this power fairly useless. While you can slot it for Theft of Essence and other useful procs, it doesn't really fit in the single target rotation and the self-heal is unnecessary with proper defenses. Water Blast vs. Whirlpool. Ultimately, I find that you're only going to need one of the two of these because everything is recharging so quickly. I tend to take Whirlpool because the additional Force Feedback opportunity is superfluous. Water Jet. Due to the 'double tap' mechanic, this is one of the most proc-friendly powers around. It can take 3 possible procs (Javelin, Apocalypse, Impeded Swiftness) and it should normally have all three. Tornado/Lightning Storm. People often forget that Force Feedback also has a Recharge/Endurance IO that fits perfectly and gives you a bit of extra movement speed for the 2-set. Mu Mastery. This tends to be my go-to these days because it gets me two useful powers: the resist toggle and Conserve Power. The rotation is already dense enough that additional offensive powers tend to be superfluous.

I think both Dark and Sonic are a terrible choice for Poison. Poison's key debuff is a PBAoE while Dark and Sonic are both reliant on Cone-Centric AE. Dual Pistols would be a far better choice.

Anything that involves completing final objectives - task forces, incarnate trials, patron arcs, etc. - going to have that 'skip stuff' mentality because the entire point is to get to the end. If you're just joining a PI paper mission group, you'll rarely find people rushing to the end because the goal is to grind through the mission rather that to satisfy whatever trivial objective ends the mission.

Unfortunately, Lightning Storm and Tornado are not pseudo-pets, but actual pets. As such, they do not inherit your damage bonuses.

In terms of Sonic Blast, I tend to go with: Single Target Rotation: Shriek/Shout/Shriek/Screech. This is the best ST rotation for -resist debuffing at a reasonable level of recharge. Slotting: Shriek: Superior Defender's Bastion Shout: Apocalypse + Gladiator's Javelin +toxic Screech: Superior Vigilant Assault 3-set, Gladiator's Javelin +toxic, Decimation +build up AE Rotation: Howl/Shockwave can be fired one after the other. Howl: All of the range enhancements from Detonation, Artillery, Positron's Blast + Positron's Blast +energy Shockwave: All of the range enhancements from Detonation, Artillery, Positron's Blast + Overwhelming Force KB -> KD Dreadful Wail: The rest of Vigilant Assault and +damage procs from PBAoE sets. Taken together, you'll normally have to find a place for another purple set (the Sleep can be used, but I don't find it a particularly useful power). Most primaries have at least one power that can (usefully) slot a purple set. You'd also generally need to have Tactics for such a build due to the low accuracy on the Cones. However, any sort of generic slotting needs to be adjusted for the other power set options.

And 20% damage reduction is less than 80% damage reduction. Resistance scales super-linearly while while -damage does not. As a result, +resist is simply better than -damage for comparable amounts (unless you're hitting limits).

-Damage is legitimately not very strong. -20% damage, even on an unresisting target, will reduce your damage by around 20% no matter how much you pile on. In contrast, adding +20% to your existing +55% resist will reduce incoming damage by 80%. -Resist is resisted-by-resistance, but all this actually does is make it easy to calculate. If you've got -20% resist, it will increase your damage by 20% no matter how much resistance the target has.

I can't imagine not taking O2 Boost on a MM. While it's certainly not an optimal heal for MM, it's a lot better than the alternative (no heal at all) - especially as it is also the status protection power (admittedly only against Sleep/Disorient). That being said, I think Storm isn't a very good choice for MM unless they want to spend their time fighting pylons. The three main powers - Lightning Storm, Tornado and Freezing Rain - all place a huge premium on containing enemies in a tight area. Masterminds just don't have the tools to optimize those abilities. Nor, frankly, do they benefit all that much from what it offers. Masterminds don't really need additional ST damage (which is really what Lightning Storm/Tornado provide) or the recharge benefits from the Force Feedback procs. The kind of chaotic soft control Storm offers is likewise superfluous with the pets.

I find it tough to take Super Reflexes on a non-Sentinel since the Sentinel version is so much better. It has a harder time hitting benchmarks like "Incarnate soft cap", but it gets Tanker-level resist scaling, an absorption shield and endurance management. You can also take a damage aura via Epic pools. There's also the fact that you can work a little bit harder with Shield Defense to get a significantly broader set of abilities.

Lightning Storm deals a total of ~500 damage while Tornado deals ~400 damage. Before you slot them or add the impact of -resist debuffing, they're going to be dealing about 20 dps and 25 dps for each Lightning Storm and Tornado. So you've got ~115 dps. With slots/incarnates that's up to 250 dps or so. With this does consume ~15% of your activation time, the remainder of your activation time is spent nuking. Add in layered Freezing Rain and Sonic Blast debuffs and you're looking at 600+ dps. Admittedly, this is primarily a tactic for AV/GM, but you don't need a log parser to notice the immediate and visceral impact a Storm/Sonic brings to that kind of fight.

I think he means that it's not a bubble where pets can easily wander out-of-range. Once buffed, they stay buffed. That being said, I tend to find Time to always end up being the 'second best' choice for virtually any build. It's basically an armor set masquerading as a support set, by which I mean it gives you all of the core things builds seek - defense, recharge, recovery, etc. - but not much else. It doesn't really have any high impact powers. This makes Time incredibly easy to build around but means that your final build always feels like it comes up a bit short compared to more complex builds that manage to also have high impact powers.

For a Defender, the conventional rotation would be Shriek/Shout/Shriek/Screech. While Screech does negligible damage, it's the bulk of the -resist debuffing. Together, this rotation gives you ~90% resist debuff over time, almost doubling your basic damage. However, this isn't really the whole story. The first issue - and this affects Sentinels as well - is that most of the time you're not interested in throwing enough ST nukes at a target to let the law of large numbers take hold. You're finishing off stragglers from AE blasts and the like. Sonic (on any AT) is horrible at this because it has low damage nukes and -20% resist on a dead target isn't much use. It takes time to build up those massive -resist bonuses and you don't have that time on a standard boss. The second issus is that Sentinels get Lightning Field (and, I suppose, Havoc Punch). This allows them to stay in melee and get a significant bonus on that ticking toggle. When I last looked at it, a Sonic/*/Electricity would just barely edge out a Fire/*/whatever Sentinel for sustained single target damage. However, going this route also tends to mean that the AE from Sonic itself is somewhat useless (since Cones require range). The third issue is that those Cones are significantly better on a Sentinel because they can get +50% global range from ATOs. While this can be tricky to slot, it means you can have Cones that stretch out to 80 yards or more. Sentinels also don't suffer from using Cones instead of standard target AE like Defenders do because the target caps are the same. The last issue is that, well, you're still a Sentinel. A Sonic/*/Electricity Sentinel is going to outdamage an Empathy/Sonic/? Defender once all is said and done. But the Defender is going to be a far better teammate since the -resist debuffs are going to be double. Moreover, our Sentinel isn't going to come close to matching something like Storm/Sonic/? where the Defender is exploiting their own -resist debuffs for massive damage pseudo-pets. And, truth be told, Sentinels don't actually enjoy much - if any - defensive advantage over Defenders. While Sentinels get complete armor sets, they get them at Sentinel levels. Defenders may only get a few pool/epic/primary toggles - but they get them at Tanker levels.

Part of the problem I have with Empathy is that Pain is basically the same thing except defense instead of resist and +damage/-resist rather than minor +damage. Given that neither set has particularly striking visuals, almost any time I see Empathy/* or */Empathy, I have to ask why they aren't just doing Pain/* or */Pain.

It used to trigger on pet summons - you could put it in your Tornado and you'd get the Boost Up - but I believe they changed it at some point. Currently, it appears to only work for normal pets (i.e. not pseudo-pets) on the pet itself.

For me, the issue is that a novice player is likely to bring expectations from other games. Those expectations will be along the lines of "I'm not all that tough and I don't deal all that much damage, but my support justifies my presence in the team/league". However, those expectations don't really line up with how the game plays at 50. While some support remains useful, most of it - including virtually all the abilities from some sets - does not. So the person who rolls up an Empathy Defender with the expectation that everyone will love them at 50 for being the best healer around is going to end up very disappointed when they discover no one really needs them. This also impacts which support AT you'd choose to play. I think an Empathy Defender is a bit silly - you have a nearly worthless primary coupled with one of the lowest damage offensive sets in the game - but a */Pain Mastermind can be justified.

Again, they are not 'my' numbers. They are the numbers in game and in Mid's. You need to stop trying to de-rail the conversation with irrelevancies. You don't like the numbers the game and Mid's use for Radiation Assault? Fine. It's been noted. It also has precisely zero to do with what was being discussed. It has nothing to do with the original question and it has nothing to do with what you were responding to.

Ball Lightning and Electrifying Fences together have a base dps of 2.85. Quills is 3.13 dps and Blazing Aura is 4.59 dps, for a total of 7.72 dps. So you'd need ~+200% recharge (entirely reasonable) before the Mu Mastery powers start overtaking them dps-wise. Spine Burst has 2.47 dps, so it's better than either Ball Lightning or Electrifying Fences individually. Atom Smasher is 2.57 dps, so again better than either of those two powers individually. On the build I currently use for farming (albeit as a Tanker), I use Dragon's Tail. For a Brute, this has 3.14 dps - more than the sum of the two Mu Mastery powers - and it's actually quite a bit better than those numbers would indicate since you can effectively be under perma-Force Feedback with it. Shadow Maul is a whopping 6.66 dps. On a perma-Soul Drain build, you only have 2.75 secs between Shadow Mauls (occurring on a 5.25 sec cycle). This tends to sharply reduce the value of Mu Mastery since you're trying to squeeze those relatively weak AEs in between your very good ones. So I think Mu is a lot less crucial than you're making out.

You posted the damage per activation numbers. The damage per animation numbers are the ones adjusted for arcana-time (damage per activation does not include any information about the activation time). Two of the numbers you posted were damage per animation, the rest damage per activation (which is a trifle confusing). All of the numbers I posted were damage per animation. I didn't count anything. The numbers I provided were the raw information, which is how sensible people do it because otherwise you have to go into a long explanation about why you're modifying the raw numbers. If your comments about whether or not to count Contamination or Envenomed Blades weren't so transparently off-topic and irrelevant to the overall issue, it might be a worthwhile discussion about how to model such things. 'No person' apparently doesn't include the game designers or the people who created Mid's. In any case, if you're done with your attempts to de-rail the conversation, why exactly is it that - contrary to more than a decade of knowledge about the game - you believe that skipping parts of a rotation yields more damage than including them?