WindDemon21

That said though, is it referring to the slow being too good as a taoe (not cone), or both? Read up further, and you'll see the suggestion for mainly having the slow as the taoe so its usable in melee, but then making the fear a mag 4, but only last like 4ish seconds, just enough time to get into melee, and let AA go to work. In addition, please address the horridly dumb duration that has existed forever on the power, it should easily be at least 30s. Always been a thorn in it's side that it literally had worse rech/duration than the blaster version, which even that got an update, but not the controller/dom versions.

Taoe CLEARLY is referred to as a ranged attack, where the area is a radius around the targeted enemy, as opposed to a ranged cone. Don't be pedantic.

It should definitely be taoe so you can use it in melee. Given how wide the cone is for the slow it should still have a good radius to hit enemies. I'd easily say 30 feet if not 35. Keep the fear in the same radius, but make it truly more use as the "opener to close into melee" by having it be mag 4, but short duration, like 4 or 5 seconds, enough to close in, and let you set up a toggle or two if need be while giving time for AA to do its work. At the same time, to also please address the horrid recharge vs duration issue it has for the slow part. 30s is fine for the recharge, but the duration of the slow should easily be upped to at least 30 seconds.

That is correct, and if you read our posts, including the one I just put before the last, we are including that in our calculations. GIVEN that, still, 5s is too long of a suppression as lots of combos don't have a power more worth the toggle without getting aggro, or may not have that specific power always available when the mez ends either.

Just because some may not *notice* it as a nerf though doesn't mean that it's not. Not caring about something doesn't mean that it didnt occur lol. Otherwise thar could be said of literally anything and a nerf simply *wouldn't exist* if people just lowered their standards for everything instead. I also didn't test specifically and I'm at work atm but do the toggles also still cost end when suppressed/mezzed? Because if they do that's also another detriment with this change is more end costs.

Oh no don't get me wrong, it *can* mean less micromanagement, and I've been asking for not detoggling when mezzed for a long time. The suppression though is the issue. And as mentioned it does help *some* (minority) combos out, buy at 5 seconds, it is most definitely a nerf to most (even is less *work* of having to retoggle) At the very most I'd say a buff to maybe like a couple combos, neutral to a few and nerf to the majority. 4 seconds (including being able to attack instead) would average much better, though there are still some that this would hurt a good bit.

Just read edits. And no *just* a change is different. A nerf though is where you're *forced* to change your tactics (which can also mean build change not just movements etc) in order to reclaim similar or next best performance.

*EXACTLY* maybe not, but it basically ends up being the same result in the majority of any nerf even if in a small part.

Having to change your tactics for a change because you can't do what you could before is pretty much the very definition of a nerf. Edit: Again, it's not that *some* combos can't benefit and use that time to their advantage. Controllers probably get the best benefit having control and support powers that should have something usable. But lots of defender/corruptors do not have several attacks more worthwhile than an important toggle, and masterminds almost explicitly get a straight nerf out of this change.

Well for starters why they think when debuffs are already affected by the purple patch, resistances, radii, higher end costs, and for most target issues moving away, dying etc, that they should also even need to be suppressed compared to defensive toggles... In lieu of that as well, again 5s is still too long of a suppression, 4 is the absolute max, but still hinders most sets. We still need to look at mez as a whole on squishies. More protection options, a MEZ suppression so you're not perma or chain mezzed, and resistances to matter more by upping the values from bonuses etc.

Or.. hear me out... Make it a taoe so you can use it in melee too! *re-sarcasm*

I'm not disagreeing that it's not a decent power to use, just that it's also not always up when a mez wears off as you usually start with it cast right after you cast DN first, and that it's one of the most clear examples of a set having a useful skill (possibly more than DN) where many others don't have the same type of an effective power to use during this window versus wanting the debuff toggle back on ASAP.

Which is also part if not majorly in the fact that it takes so freaking long to activate which should NOT be the case for any offensive toggle. The maximum cast time for any should be 1-1.5s, and then evaluate from there. (Which regardless of this change that should be addressed immediately)

There is also an innate problem with how IOs were/are structured to go for positional defense. Most of those values are lower that the typed ones, and lots of them require the full 6 slotting of a set to get there. With that the only viable way to cap them outside of shield/sr/nin is capping ranged/aoe. You cant do it also with melee, and meleers still have to worry about ranged attacks as well, there is no "kiting" ranged attacks like you can with melee. There is also no positional equivalent defense shield in the epics for squishies as well to work off of.

Except thats still just defense. If it does manage to get through, you still have to worry about the resistances you have, slow resistance or mez protection, and your hp/healing to recover from it. Just because smash and lethal is the most common combined type, doesnt mean that it's the only factor. Again, leave the current game that many people have enjoyed for literal decades now un-nerfed, and make new content that's harder expecting these things. It's not a hard concept.

I know it's completely separate but I always hoped there was an option to JUST view the procs log, ie not in damage delivered, healing delivered etc.

For the cone sizes. What about as a taoe so you can actually use it in melee. Honestly I'd rather the fear tack on to flash freeze too and have it animate faster, and change shiver to a taoe without fear if it means we could use shiver in melee. The fact that it's a cone has always been the dumbest inconsistency with ice control and the desire to use the fear too will make this even worse. These all in addition to FINALLY fixing the dumb rech/duration stats on shiver. Ie 30s is fine but it should last at least 30s as a taoe if not 45 or 60 (especially if it's remaining a cone). For goodness sake the blaster version has even remained better since conception besides the lower -rech value.

MAKE. IT. A. LARGE. TAOE! SO. WE. CAN. USE. IT. IN. MELEE. TOO!

There are more but just making the quote smaller lol, but there are also toggles like this and telekinesis, those 40s recharges on those tanker toggles etc, and tons still there that should also have a max cast time of 1.5 seconds not their current 3s etc cast times. This is just off of current values, and not what should also be looked at to be fixed. Though technically toggles, either their rech being lowered, or vs use dimension shift and telekinesis (which honestly just scrapped altogether IMO but needs serious tweaks), I feel like these powers shouldn't even be considered in this equation. You were doing the right thing, I'm just pointing out that there are (even without this change) already existing problems with certain powers and cast times that should honestly be addressed first before these calculations (like darkest night, again 1.5s should be the max cast time for these types of powers.)

Stun breaks free. (Toggles rech already) cast time of toggle.. even rad now can get ef and ri out in 3 seconds, with ri being the most important generally in 1.5s, not 5. Other factors can play, not always a useful attack to do instead. You have to look at the lowest possible need too when averaging. Given max that toggle time should be at 1.5s, lets say the average is 2, still 3 seconds (with one being applied by 1.5s already in use) There are yet even other detrimental factors like the toggled enemy moving or dying etc. 5 seconds is too long.

It's actually a nerf in most but a few circumstances even with the tradeoff at 5s especially for those that NEED those toggles on and don't have a better click power to use, which aren't as affected as it is now anyway. The idea is there, but 5s is still too long for those that need this the most (or even don't)

Ugh somehow I just KNEW that was going to be the "new" number. I think 4s would be the absolute max I could concede (though still too long) with but 5 seconds is definitely still too long, again we should be focusing on those "MUST HAVE TOGGLE BACK ON ASAP" powers. Edit: ESPECIALLY for those with only one or two super important toggles. And again, this is very dependent that you actually have a useful click power that doesn't just draw aggro and get you killed as well. Seriously though, 3s or bust. (Note regarding mez and why this also affects more even with this are two things that could factor to this change: 1. Giving a "mez lockout" where you are protected from another mez for those seconds after unnerving. And 2. Toggle debuffs should tic replacing lasting debuffs, so if you get held with a debuff on, it will still last for 15 seconds etc after. The absorb on spirit was kinda works like this)

Its actually still a slight nerf for those with just one toggle at 3 seconds, (again esp since no toggle should take more than 1-1.5s to cast anwyays), and given that, about even with 2 toggles, and a slight buff to more than that, which is again, like, maybe 3 total combos in the game so not a big factor.

Except that logic is already flawed. This change, high in part, is mostly geared towards those sets that NEED those toggles on asap. IE, rad, dark, storm, etc. where in almost every scenario, they'd be retoggling those important toggles first and foremost. (damage auras should honestly not even be in this discussion). Especially on defender/corruptors/MMs also where their other skills, would be attacks and not always a useful (and recharged and ready) power, that would draw them aggro and get them killed. So expecting this change to be needed for anything but mostly those support sets and calculating from there is flawed. "A nice bonus" to damage auras and such on ATs where they mostly attack anyway", is a lot different from "I NEED THIS TOGGLE ON NOW MORE THAN I NEED TO ATTACK OR DO ANYTHING ELSE!" We are ALL looking almost exclusively at those "This toggle shouldn't have dropped at all and need it back ASAP" powers.

This, which has always been the biggest problem on squishies. It does need addressed IMO, but I can concede that this would indeed be another thread that wouldn't happen till a future patch. But yes again while it could be nice to attack, the main priority for those that this is really needed for, are thise sets and powers where you need the TOGGLE back on ASAP. So we should be looking first and foremost at those one/two toggle averages that are priority, or its a straight nerf. IE 3ish seconds (which includes that some *may* have a useful power to use during that time, but others who don't have one that wouldn't also draw aggro and get then killed etc)