WindDemon21

I'm not disagreeing that it's not a decent power to use, just that it's also not always up when a mez wears off as you usually start with it cast right after you cast DN first, and that it's one of the most clear examples of a set having a useful skill (possibly more than DN) where many others don't have the same type of an effective power to use during this window versus wanting the debuff toggle back on ASAP.

Which is also part if not majorly in the fact that it takes so freaking long to activate which should NOT be the case for any offensive toggle. The maximum cast time for any should be 1-1.5s, and then evaluate from there. (Which regardless of this change that should be addressed immediately)

There is also an innate problem with how IOs were/are structured to go for positional defense. Most of those values are lower that the typed ones, and lots of them require the full 6 slotting of a set to get there. With that the only viable way to cap them outside of shield/sr/nin is capping ranged/aoe. You cant do it also with melee, and meleers still have to worry about ranged attacks as well, there is no "kiting" ranged attacks like you can with melee. There is also no positional equivalent defense shield in the epics for squishies as well to work off of.

Except thats still just defense. If it does manage to get through, you still have to worry about the resistances you have, slow resistance or mez protection, and your hp/healing to recover from it. Just because smash and lethal is the most common combined type, doesnt mean that it's the only factor. Again, leave the current game that many people have enjoyed for literal decades now un-nerfed, and make new content that's harder expecting these things. It's not a hard concept.

I know it's completely separate but I always hoped there was an option to JUST view the procs log, ie not in damage delivered, healing delivered etc.

For the cone sizes. What about as a taoe so you can actually use it in melee. Honestly I'd rather the fear tack on to flash freeze too and have it animate faster, and change shiver to a taoe without fear if it means we could use shiver in melee. The fact that it's a cone has always been the dumbest inconsistency with ice control and the desire to use the fear too will make this even worse. These all in addition to FINALLY fixing the dumb rech/duration stats on shiver. Ie 30s is fine but it should last at least 30s as a taoe if not 45 or 60 (especially if it's remaining a cone). For goodness sake the blaster version has even remained better since conception besides the lower -rech value.

MAKE. IT. A. LARGE. TAOE! SO. WE. CAN. USE. IT. IN. MELEE. TOO!

There are more but just making the quote smaller lol, but there are also toggles like this and telekinesis, those 40s recharges on those tanker toggles etc, and tons still there that should also have a max cast time of 1.5 seconds not their current 3s etc cast times. This is just off of current values, and not what should also be looked at to be fixed. Though technically toggles, either their rech being lowered, or vs use dimension shift and telekinesis (which honestly just scrapped altogether IMO but needs serious tweaks), I feel like these powers shouldn't even be considered in this equation. You were doing the right thing, I'm just pointing out that there are (even without this change) already existing problems with certain powers and cast times that should honestly be addressed first before these calculations (like darkest night, again 1.5s should be the max cast time for these types of powers.)

Stun breaks free. (Toggles rech already) cast time of toggle.. even rad now can get ef and ri out in 3 seconds, with ri being the most important generally in 1.5s, not 5. Other factors can play, not always a useful attack to do instead. You have to look at the lowest possible need too when averaging. Given max that toggle time should be at 1.5s, lets say the average is 2, still 3 seconds (with one being applied by 1.5s already in use) There are yet even other detrimental factors like the toggled enemy moving or dying etc. 5 seconds is too long.

It's actually a nerf in most but a few circumstances even with the tradeoff at 5s especially for those that NEED those toggles on and don't have a better click power to use, which aren't as affected as it is now anyway. The idea is there, but 5s is still too long for those that need this the most (or even don't)

Ugh somehow I just KNEW that was going to be the "new" number. I think 4s would be the absolute max I could concede (though still too long) with but 5 seconds is definitely still too long, again we should be focusing on those "MUST HAVE TOGGLE BACK ON ASAP" powers. Edit: ESPECIALLY for those with only one or two super important toggles. And again, this is very dependent that you actually have a useful click power that doesn't just draw aggro and get you killed as well. Seriously though, 3s or bust. (Note regarding mez and why this also affects more even with this are two things that could factor to this change: 1. Giving a "mez lockout" where you are protected from another mez for those seconds after unnerving. And 2. Toggle debuffs should tic replacing lasting debuffs, so if you get held with a debuff on, it will still last for 15 seconds etc after. The absorb on spirit was kinda works like this)

Its actually still a slight nerf for those with just one toggle at 3 seconds, (again esp since no toggle should take more than 1-1.5s to cast anwyays), and given that, about even with 2 toggles, and a slight buff to more than that, which is again, like, maybe 3 total combos in the game so not a big factor.

Except that logic is already flawed. This change, high in part, is mostly geared towards those sets that NEED those toggles on asap. IE, rad, dark, storm, etc. where in almost every scenario, they'd be retoggling those important toggles first and foremost. (damage auras should honestly not even be in this discussion). Especially on defender/corruptors/MMs also where their other skills, would be attacks and not always a useful (and recharged and ready) power, that would draw them aggro and get them killed. So expecting this change to be needed for anything but mostly those support sets and calculating from there is flawed. "A nice bonus" to damage auras and such on ATs where they mostly attack anyway", is a lot different from "I NEED THIS TOGGLE ON NOW MORE THAN I NEED TO ATTACK OR DO ANYTHING ELSE!" We are ALL looking almost exclusively at those "This toggle shouldn't have dropped at all and need it back ASAP" powers.

This, which has always been the biggest problem on squishies. It does need addressed IMO, but I can concede that this would indeed be another thread that wouldn't happen till a future patch. But yes again while it could be nice to attack, the main priority for those that this is really needed for, are thise sets and powers where you need the TOGGLE back on ASAP. So we should be looking first and foremost at those one/two toggle averages that are priority, or its a straight nerf. IE 3ish seconds (which includes that some *may* have a useful power to use during that time, but others who don't have one that wouldn't also draw aggro and get then killed etc)

It's also a lot of a mechanic to try to code in for just a simple "leave the suppression at 3 seconds instead where everyone is happy"

Not the mention the resistances (on top of shoudln't be basically required to have IOs) are also such piddly small values.

This exactly. I'd rather do harder stuff that makes me want a tank, troller etc on the team, but still being able to steamroll council radios on a blaster for example, rather than now not being able to play those squishies at all without a team altogether. Ie, don't ruin good content that a lot of people enjoy, just make more content for more people.

Would there be some way to implement, where it's not per character, but rather per account? Because I know personally one thing i hated most on live was having to relog in to characters to keep their name available for them when I want to go back to play them. But if say, instead, it was based on account, lets say someone hasn't logged in to their account in like 6 months, all their names should be freed. I think that would still free up a ton of names, and be more relevant without creating a lot more busy work for the playerbase. Maybe per account, but like, 30 days of not logging in, your 1-15 are up for grabs, etc, so you don't have to log in to the individual character, but just your account.

The only toggle that targets players that I can think of is spirit ward, which really shouldn't detoggle at all when mezzed IMO, but definitely should at least follow whatever new rule happens with this change. (sonic repulsion is cast on an ally, but its effect is to enemy so does not count).

Thank you for at least directly saying that. While I don't agree that it shouldn't at least be on the table, I do still feel it is completely within the realm of possibility though given all the other arguments me and others have said (ie, its not actually power creep when you look at them versus defensive toggles, its just the same as them but works differently). But ok, then since, no matter what we say its not going to be zero, back to discussing the length, which I'll restate the 3second timeframe seems the most reasonable given all the previous discussions.

They didn't specify anything else, just sonic resonance. As per spirit ward, it doesn't affect enemies, but given how it does toggle off when mezzed currently I Imagine it uses the same coding.

Um. Sonic Resonance only has two offensive toggles, disruption aura (the -res aura), and sonic repulsion (the kb). You're getting confused.

This was also all factored in to our arguments as well. What this DOES do, is limit player input as to what toggle goes on first, that we would rather do that first BEFORE attacking etc. What this at 8s effectively does is limit playstyle to expecting that people wouldn't cast certain high priority toggles on first, which is not good. Again this is SUPPOSED to be a help to players, mostly squishies, to somewhat lessen the hassle of getting constantly mezzed. Given previous arguments, notably that it shouldn't take more than 1-1.5s to cast any toggle anyway, the most necessary value for those who wish to lean into the toggles should be granted. A bonus to some, even still a slight nerf to others if it were at a 3ish second suppression, as opposed to a full blown nerf to ALL sets at 8 seconds. Again, this is to be a GOOD change, not "lets still try to hinder the players somehow to have them play how we want them to". And again to the fact, that defensive toggles have yet no suppression in comparison, let alone purple patch/resistances, so even any suppression is still kinda dumb TBH. (pvp can be different)

This exactly. There was NEVER a valid reason for them to not have the same target caps as ranged aoes. They all should be 16 targets where their ranged aoe counterparts are as well. Edit: and 10 cap on sentinels obviously. Given nukes too which IMO should be 24 normals/16 sents.

Again though, I'll have to say the very REAL in game experience facts that: 1. The timing looking at activation times, should also note that generally, (ie needed fixed before this anyway) no toggle should take more than 1-1.5s to activate as it stands already. 2. That this does not let you choose what gets activated first which can already consider for lots to be a nerf, and most cases have only 1 maybe 2 (rad being the only i can think offhand of that has 3) offensive toggles. 3. Recharge again ends up being pretty much non-existent (and also factors when you want to CHANGE targets), and should not be factored in to the suppression timing (defensive toggles do not have to deal with this) 4. Defensive toggles do not suppress at all, and since offensive ones already have to deal with the purple patch and being resisted, there really shoudln't even be any suppression at ALL on the offensive toggles. Factor in all of these things and even 3 seconds would be an outlier of possibly being too long of a suppression after the mez wears off, but considering current state- and being able to attack during that timeframe 3 seconds still ends up being the most that the suppression should last if it is to remain. Any longer is a nerf to almost any set out there. And in the *SUPER* early game having it be a *possible* buff (only if you still want it on the target that it's on after being mezzed and not a new target), it's still not going to change gameplay much at all and should be an acceptable help for the earlier toggle game.