Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Lol, my first melee was a MA/Regen scrapper. MA got better over time but is still a bit middle of the road. As for Regen.....

 

 

What makes your experience more impactful than mine, or mine more impactful than your's? 

Nothing, thats why we arent ever going to get anywhere.

 

And honestly i can see you have good intentions, I hope you can see that I do also.

 

SO im going to move on now, and agree to disagree.  I just really want to play right now, My kid is buggiing me to get on so thats what im going to do.

 

Agree to disagree partner.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Infinitum

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Nothing, thats why we arent ever going to get anywhere.

Thats where the data comes in. Since we cannot rely on each other's experiences we can point to what the game says about the set as that is something we can both objectively quantify. 

 

Assuming you and I both play with equal skill, the numbers will speak to the results.

[Ananke]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Why so insulting?  geeze, I see the warning, im in mid attack and if the damn thing doesnt move it doesnt move.  Thats not my fault.

There's about 30 seconds between each lightning bolt attack. You've got a good while to prepare. It's no one's fault but yours: you're the one controlling the character, the game didn't decide to queue up a long animation on its own. If you don't take responsibility for it then you'll never figure out where to adapt to improve.

[Hopeling]

46 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

TW BM RA AoD WS RA AoD WS

Yeah, I'm not surprised you did less than EM with this chain, haha. RA and Arc are the big hits, but Follow Through has the best DPA and a short recharge. Crushing Blow is also a better filler than Whirl for single targets.

 

Try something like RA-FT-AoD-CB-FT and you should see better results. That's one complete Momentum cycle, so it can be repeated indefinitely between BM uses.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Hopeling said:

Yeah, I'm not surprised you did less than EM with this chain, haha. RA and Arc are the big hits, but Follow Through has the best DPA and a short recharge. Crushing Blow is also a better filler than Whirl for single targets.

 

Try something like RA-FT-AoD-CB-FT and you should see better results. That's one complete Momentum cycle, so it can be repeated indefinitely between BM uses.

I really dont want to change it though. I like demolishing minions.

 

But it honestly shouldnt even be close to EM if TW is OP

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I really dont want to change it though. I like demolishing minions.

 

But it honestly shouldnt even be close to EM if TW is OP

So wait, you werent using a ST attack chain on TW to compare to a ST attack chain on EM, and it got within 10% of the ST focused set and you're using that as proof?

[Snakebit]

5 hours ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy day to contribute nothing meaningful to the discussion.

 

Now I'd like to see numbers on how many players go through the DFB for even a few levels. BTW, I did that, and the AE, to get to a level at which I felt I could contribute to the conversation without wasting several hours leveling up. 

 

But again, thanks for spending the time and energy to be a jerk because we ALL want more like you around.

 

I do the same thing my friend. I was pointing out that the time from 1 to 32 is frivolous. Therefore the complaints about DFB...which is almost exclusively full team content and easy as pie to boot...being hard on TW are inane. It's an hour or two of content that grants pretty good rewards in addition to the xp. It's no harder or easier on any toon at all. It requires the minimal effort of all the content in the game except door sitting. How does doorsitting go with TW by the way? Is it harder than say, AR/DEV?

 

It amuses me greatly how offended you are that I dismissed that incredibly entitled and hollow lament. 

[Haijinx]

I suggest the rebar TW model so you can sit on the block of concrete when door sitting. 

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So wait, you werent using a ST attack chain on TW to compare to a ST attack chain on EM, and it got within 10% of the ST focused set and you're using that as proof?

I used the most powerful attacks i had on either one that would fit the chain.

 

Yeah it shouldnt be close because EM isnt a top performer.

 

Yall are talking optimized for damage and Im not - and not everyone is going to build it that way, on either really, I build for durability first.

 

If you are talking about optimizing it a certain way and thats the only way to make it OP isnt that proving my point? because how many are going to do it like i did, and how many are going to flat out get it wrong on top of that?   Nerf it and its going to be even worse.

 

I built mine that way on purpose.  because i wanted a ton of aoe, cones, and multi hit damage., but it still has the two big hitters in AoD and RA which cycle fast.  So in theory it should outpace my EM but it doesnt.  Only with aoe, which it is supposed to.

[Hopeling]

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I really dont want to change it though. I like demolishing minions.

 

But it honestly shouldnt even be close to EM if TW is OP

It isn't close, unless you do something profoundly silly like use a terrible AoE chain on a pylon. That chain isn't even gapless; even at the recharge cap, you're just standing there doing nothing for about 1.3 seconds between Whirl and the second Rend. You could at least throw a Follow Through in there. It's the best ST attack in the set; of course ST performance is going to suffer if you don't even use it.

 

In regular play, using your chain, TW would kill the boss about one second later than EM, but would also hit 4 other guys with two Arcs, and nine other guys with two Whirls. That's one boss dead for EM vs basically the whole spawn dead for TW.

 

Or if you want to focus the boss, TW goes Rend-FT-CB-Arc-FT, and at this point the boss is dead about six seconds before EM kills his, and you still have enough time to get off three more attacks before Build Momentum expires.

 

Either way, TW is blowing away EM's performance, either by beating it at its own game, or doing equally well while also throwing out a ton of AoE.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Hopeling

[Murcielago]

Outside of IOs TW sucks. People seem to forget that you cannot balance a set around IOs. IOs are variable. SOs are not. With just SOs TW is middle of the pack at best. 

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Hopeling said:

It isn't close, unless you do something profoundly silly like use a terrible AoE chain on a pylon. That chain isn't even gapless; even at the recharge cap, you're just standing there doing nothing for about 1.3 seconds between Whirl and the second Rend. You could at least throw a Follow Through in there. It's the best ST attack in the set; of course ST performance is going to suffer if you don't even use it.

 

In regular play, using your chain, TW would kill the boss one second later than EM, but would also hit 4 other guys with two Arcs, and nine other guys with two Whirls. That's one boss dead for EM vs basically the whole spawn dead for TW.

 

Or if you want to focus the boss, TW goes Rend-FT-CB-Arc-FT, and at this point the boss is dead about six seconds before EM kills his, and you still have enough time to get off three more attacks before Build Momentum expires.

No, its longer than that on bosses.  trust me.

 

There was no down time though, im not sure where you are getting that from.

 

But still, if its that finnicky where you HAVE to build it a certain way for it to beat a broken set.  How is that OP?

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Murcielago said:

Outside of IOs TW sucks. People seem to forget that you cannot balance a set around IOs. IOs are variable. SOs are not. With just SOs TW is middle of the pack at best. 

I would very much like to test this as iirc the numbers on SO's haven't really been quantified?

 

What would be "standard" SO slotting per attack power, like 3 dam / 1 acc/end/rech? 

[Infinitum]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

I would very much like to test this as iirc the numbers on SO's haven't really been quantified?

 

What would be "standard" SO slotting per attack power, like 3 dam / 1 acc/end/rech? 

I dont even consider SOs anymore  lol  

[Hopeling]

Just now, Infinitum said:

No, its longer than that on bosses.  trust me.

 

There was no down time though, im not sure where you are getting that from.

 

But still, if its that finnicky where you HAVE to build it a certain way for it to beat a broken set.  How is that OP?

"Actually using your ST attacks" is "finnicky" now?

[Moka]

Titan weapons doesn't need a nerf.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Infinitum said:

I dont even consider SOs anymore  lol  

Everyone is stating that IOs should not count, the only alternative is SO's or generic IO slotting.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Hopeling said:

"Actually using your ST attacks" is "finnicky" now?

According to you it was and i was doing it wrong, did i misread?

[Murcielago]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I would very much like to test this as iirc the numbers on SO's haven't really been quantified?

 

What would be "standard" SO slotting per attack power, like 3 dam / 1 acc/end/rech? 

That's how I would slot for SOs

Just now, Infinitum said:

I dont even consider SOs anymore  lol  

That's how powersets are created. IF all powersets were created with IOs in mind they would MUCH different than they currently are. I cannot even fathom what sets would be like if live Devs had made them with IOs in mind.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Murcielago said:

That's how I would slot for SOs

That's how powersets are created. IF all powersets were created with IOs in mind they would MUCH different than they currently are. I cannot even fathom what sets would be like if live Devs had made them with IOs in mind.

YEah i get it, but i just dont use them, thats all i said

[Hopeling]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

According to you it was and i was doing it wrong, did i misread?

I don't follow what you're trying to say here. I said that you should use a single-target rotation for single targets; you said that was finnicky. I'm asking why you think that using your single-target attacks when measuring single-target DPS is finnicky.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Hopeling

[Haijinx]

19 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I would very much like to test this as iirc the numbers on SO's haven't really been quantified?

 

What would be "standard" SO slotting per attack power, like 3 dam / 1 acc/end/rech? 

This was what i meant early in the thread. 

 

We seem to have the most info on TW/BIO at the io incarnate level.

 

The numbers help though of course, but I think those were to compensate for the slow times.

 

Which boosts damage in those situations where you can maximize momemtum up time.  Even on SOs

 

Though tbh on just SOs i think you'd run out of END too fast for it to matter.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Haijinx
Clarity

[Murcielago]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

YEah i get it, but i just dont use them, thats all i said

I'd speculate a large minority of the game population doesn't use SOs either. Where the problem lies is:

A. Availability of IO sets. It is way too easy in this game to make an absolute monster of a hero now. What used to cost billions and billions of INF is now available for maybe 500m INF if you're patient. My build for Murcielago before VR sets became ungodly expensive would hover in the 1.5-2.5 bnINF. Which leads to.

B. Difficulty of content. Because set IOs are so easy to come by the content difficulty has because laughably easy. Its fun don't get me wrong but ultimately the root cause is IO sets and their easy availability. Seeding the market with salvage was great for the beginning but it's added a layer of "too easy" to the game. If something needs to be done, its the devs need to adjust the drop rates of recipes or enhancement converters and make IO sets expensive again.  

[Galaxy Brain]

@Infinitum, this is not a build issue this is a queuing up attacks issue. Hopeling is giving you a more optimal queue of attacks for Single Target damage when comparing a single target DPS test against another Single Target chain from a mainly ST set. 

 

@Haijinx, I think I will just need some data on what to pull... like 3 slot stamina.... account for standard armors/other toggles running as well for end costs (assuming no end redux in the these).... etc

[Murcielago]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This was what i meant early in the thread. 

 

We seem to have the most info on TW/BIO at the io incarnate level.

 

The numbers help though of course, but I think those were to compensate for the slow times.

 

Which probably helps those situations where you can maximize momemtum up time.  Even on SOs

 

Though tbh on just SOs i think you'd run out of END too fast for it to matter.

TW/Bio is an absolute outlier with sets but I'd wager that it is really the only outlier when paired with that combination. Bio covers almost every weakness TW has.