Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Haijinx]

Also we have to keep in mind these base numbers were established with DPA in mind, since by that point DPA actually was considered.   Something you don't see on older sets.

 

The DPA changing mechanic makes it a weird teeter totter though.

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Normal Average Joe Gameplay or IOd to the 9s doesn't matter when the BASELINE POWERS are between 10% and 44% more damaging -outside- of Momentum than similar powers would be.

 

And momentum makes them attack (but not recharge) roughly twice as fast.

 

":It's not more powerful than Rad or Psi!" well then fucking nerf them back toward the level of other sets, too. 

 

You just keep moving the goalposts and coming up with other excuses or comparisons or whatever. Now you're comparing a Baseline Titan Weapons damage value to 'IOd out' Controllers... Dude...

 

C'mon. Just acknowledge that they dish out more damage than other powersets by 18%. The values are right there. It won't hurt.

Nobody is moving the goal posts, you can throw out any funny analogy you want but I actually play the set, I know how it performs even with relation to other sets, and it doesnt outperform them to any degree where it's an easy button.    

 

It's not even my main or second choice because I think rad and psi melee operate more efficiently honestly.  And all of them are IOd out including my TW, I still choose the other two because I need reliability not a parlor trick aoe blast chain.

 

The nerf talk is stupid even though it wouldnt affect my play much, the set would be less fun if it were any bit harder to play and sustain.  And you dont evem have a level 50 TW so really that invalidates your opinion right there.

[pesterchum]

I don't really care if a set makes me feel "too" strong in a superhero game, especially in one where incarnate powers can make anything incredibly strong anyway.

[Steampunkette]

It's true they were established with DPA in mind, but there was also some changing to older sets to bring them in line with the new damage metrics... or at least -mostly- in-line rather than being a scatter-plot.

 

And nah. He was comparing TWs being overpowered to 'Rad, Psi, or an IOd out controller'. No mention of Pylons and since he was responding to the actual numerical difference being outlying by 10-44% before DoTs were included... But who knows? Maybe you're right.

 

Point is, TW overperforms outside of Momentum but it is pretty slow so there's always a chance your target (or several) dies before the hit lands. But once you're in Momentum holy crap your Arcanatime numbers go way the hell off the DPA Scale!

[Hopeling]

@Infinitum, what do you think of the damage formula stuff I posted, or the DPA comparisons of slow TW attacks against other power sets? You haven't really made any comments on either, even though you quoted the former and the latter was a direct response to stuff you said.

 

Like, I'm trying to give an argument to support my position here. I get that you think it isn't OP; I disagree with you. The typical way for that conversation to go is to discuss the arguments in favor and against, not just to repeatedly assert our positions.

[Steampunkette]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Nobody is moving the goal posts, you can throw out any funny analogy you want but I actually play the set, I know how it performs even with relation to other sets, and it doesnt outperform them to any degree where it's an easy button.    

 

It's not even my main or second choice because I think rad and psi melee operate more efficiently honestly.  And all of them are IOd out including my TW, I still choose the other two because I need reliability not a parlor trick aoe blast chain.

 

The nerf talk is stupid even though it wouldnt affect my play much, the set would be less fun if it were any bit harder to play and sustain.  And you dont evem have a level 50 TW so really that invalidates your opinion right there.

"My anecdotal experience is more important and valuable than actual real numbers on how much damage the set does! You don't even have the same anecdotal experience!"

 

Also analogy would be 'The sword is the weapon of a warrior, the pen is the weapon of a writer'. Because it creates an Analog between the two. What I've done is point out logical fallacy. That's a different thing.

 

Yeah... I think we're done, here, Infinitum. No matter what evidence is brought forward that shows TW is overperforming you'll deny it, ignore it, or malign it because you don't want TW nerfed no matter how gently. And I can't help you to understand if you're dedicated to not understanding.

 

You've chosen a strange hill to die on. But as long as you die, what's it matter to me?

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

@Infinitum, what do you think of the damage formula stuff I posted, or the DPA comparisons of slow TW attacks against other power sets? You haven't really made any comments on either, even though you quoted the former and the latter was a direct response to stuff you said.

 

Like, I'm trying to give an argument to support my position here. I get that you think it isn't OP; I disagree with you. The typical way for that conversation to go is to discuss the arguments in favor and against, not just to repeatedly assert our positions.

Do you play the set at all, have you played other melee sets?  Its a tricky scenario to get it to be OP thats what im saying, if you screw up your attack chain, or get caught in a long animation it can ruin your day really fast.

 

Thats why I choose My Rad or Psi to do the heavy lifting with reliability.

 

I dont have any numbers to back up what I'm saying, but if you would like to join me on excelsior I could arrange a demonstration for you of what I'm saying in normal game play as to why any nerf would be flat out ignorant.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

"My anecdotal experience is more important and valuable than actual real numbers on how much damage the set does! You don't even have the same anecdotal experience!"

 

Also analogy would be 'The sword is the weapon of a warrior, the pen is the weapon of a writer'. Because it creates an Analog between the two. What I've done is point out logical fallacy. That's a different thing.

 

Yeah... I think we're done, here, Infinitum. No matter what evidence is brought forward that shows TW is overperforming you'll deny it, ignore it, or malign it because you don't want TW nerfed no matter how gently. And I can't help you to understand if you're dedicated to not understanding.

 

You've chosen a strange hill to die on. But as long as you die, what's it matter to me?

And you are wanting to nerf a set you have never played to 50.

 

That invalidates your position in my eyes.

[Haijinx]

8 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It's true they were established with DPA in mind, but there was also some changing to older sets to bring them in line with the new damage metrics... or at least -mostly- in-line rather than being a scatter-plot.

 

And nah. He was comparing TWs being overpowered to 'Rad, Psi, or an IOd out controller'. No mention of Pylons and since he was responding to the actual numerical difference being outlying by 10-44% before DoTs were included... But who knows? Maybe you're right.

 

Point is, TW overperforms outside of Momentum but it is pretty slow so there's always a chance your target (or several) dies before the hit lands. But once you're in Momentum holy crap your Arcanatime numbers go way the hell off the DPA Scale!

The numbers adjustments to dpa to older sets were rather limited, as was the animation shaving.

 

One set that did benefit a lot was MA, which also now has many of its ST attacks outside the original recharge vs damage scheme.  A Quick check, compare the base values to broadsword, they are a touch higher.

 

My impression so far is outside of IOs TW is nothing stellar ST.  But it seems like its advantages will benefit a lot with better IOs

 

Probably moreso than other melee sets, thus this whole arguement.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Haijinx said:

The numbers adjustments to dpa to older sets were rather limited, as was the animation shaving.

 

One set that did benefit a lot was MA, which also now has many of its ST attacks outside the original recharge vs damage scheme.  A Quick check, compare the base values to broadsword, they are a touch higher.

 

My impression so far is outside of IOs TW is nothing stellar ST.  But it seems like its advantages will benefit a lot with better IOs

 

Probably moreso than other melee sets, thus this whole arguement.

Single target against hard targets sucks honestly.  Even bosses can sometimes be a pain, Especially if you don't have momentum.

 

AV fights take a lot longer because they are more dynamic than pylon tests.

 

That's why I roll with my rad or psi usually instead of the TW.

 

Again no numbers to back this up but I've experienced exactly what I'm saying.

[Hopeling]

17 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Do you play the set at all, have you played other melee sets?

I have played three different TW characters to 50, as I said in an earlier comment: a TW/WP scrapper twice (once before shutdown, once on Homecoming), and a TW/Fire brute. I've also about a dozen melee characters to 50 total. While TW blooms late and the Momentum mechanic can be clunky, my TW/WP scrapper is comfortably the strongest melee character I've ever played. I find him extremely reliable and have played him through all sorts of content.

 

I'm quite familiar with the downsides of Momentum. I think they are largely balanced by the upsides of Momentum, namely the fact that most of your attacks get to be very fast. I would not even call it a net drawback at all, much less such a large one that all TW powers should do significant bonus damage.

 

On a team, winding up a big attack to hit corpses is frustrating, but that happens to every set. Atom Smasher is slower than every TW power, and doesn't accelerate future attacks nor cast faster during Fusion, yet nobody thinks that Rad Melee can't contribute to teams. Again, TW without Momentum isn't even unusually slow. Overall, I find that my TW characters have no more trouble contributing to teams, even fast-moving teams, than my other characters do. It feels frustrating to get Momentum and then have to move to the next spawn, but it's not actually any worse than casting Head Splitter and then moving to the next spawn.

 

Again, what do you think of the things I asked you about before?

Edited September 11, 2019 by Hopeling

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Hopeling said:

I have played three different TW characters to 50, as I said in an earlier comment: a TW/WP scrapper twice (once before shutdown, once on Homecoming), and a TW/Fire brute. I've also about a dozen melee characters to 50 total. While TW blooms late and the Momentum mechanic can be clunky, my TW/WP scrapper is comfortably the strongest melee character I've ever played. I find him extremely reliable and have played him through all sorts of content.

 

I'm quite familiar with the downsides of Momentum. I think they are largely balanced by the upsides of Momentum, namely the fact that most of your attacks get to be very fast. I would not even call it a net drawback at all, much less such a large one that all TW powers should do significant bonus damage.

 

On a team, winding up a big attack to hit corpses is frustrating, but that happens to every set. Atom Smasher is slower than every TW power, and doesn't accelerate future attacks nor cast faster during Fusion, yet nobody thinks that Rad Melee can't contribute to teams. Again, TW without Momentum isn't even unusually slow. Overall, I find that my TW characters have no more trouble contributing to teams, even fast-moving teams, than my other characters do. It feels frustrating to get Momentum and then have to move to the next spawn, but it's not actually any worse than casting Head Splitter and then moving to the next spawn.

 

Again, what do you think of the things I asked you about before?

Did you seriously say TW without momentum isnt unusually slow?

 

Did I misread that in any way or context?

[Hopeling]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Did you seriously say TW without momentum isnt unusually slow?

 

Did I misread that in any way or context?

I did, yes. This is now the third time I've said it. It first came up on the previous page, where I laid out the numbers directly. Rend Armor is as slow as Head Splitter and deals more damage. Arc of Destruction is slightly slower than Shatter or Eviscerate, and stronger than either. Even Crushing Blow is merely middling in terms of DPA, for a t2 attack, with its slow animation.

 

TW without Momentum is slow, but it's not so overwhelmingly slow that it should do significant bonus damage on every attack, especially when TW with Momentum is very fast and you get more attacks with Momentum than without.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Hopeling

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

I did, yes. This is now the third time I've said it. It first came up on the previous page, where I laid out the numbers directly. Rend Armor is as slow as Head Splitter and deals more damage. Arc of Destruction is slightly slower than Shatter or Eviscerate, and stronger than either. Even Crushing Blow is merely middling in terms of DPA, for a t2 attack, with its slow animation.

 

TW without Momentum is slow, but it's not so overwhelmingly slow that it should do significant bonus damage on every attack, especially when TW with Momentum is very fast and you get more attacks with Momentum than without.

Yeah, agree to disagree there, the set feels totally clunky outside of momentum, and you arent being honest if you say otherwise.

 

If thats how other sets Play 100% of the time they need a buff because that sucks.

[Hopeling]

18 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah, agree to disagree there, the set feels totally clunky outside of momentum, and you arent being honest if you say otherwise.

 

If thats how other sets Play 100% of the time they need a buff because that sucks.

I have not said otherwise. I agree that the set feels clunky outside of Momentum. However, the key word there is "feels": a large part of it is because the animators did a really great job of making the attacks look clunky outside of Momentum, rather than because the animations actually are longer. The attacks you lead with on a fresh spawn are as fast, or just slightly slower than, everyone else's strong attacks that they would lead with. For example, in Rad Melee you probably lead with Devastating Blow or Atom Smasher, either of which is slower than Rend Armor.

 

If every other power set needs a buff, then it sounds like we are in agreement that TW offers higher performance than other melee sets.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Hopeling

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

If every other power set needs a buff, then it sounds like we are in agreement that TW offers higher performance than other melee sets.

Never said that captain.  I said that if the other sets feel that bad 100% of the time, because TW most will agree sucks outloud without momentum, they need to be buffed because nerfing TW to make those feel better is something that even Jack Emmert wouldn't be stupid enough to do.

 

Well maybe he would but is that where you want to be?   lol

[Infinitum]

11 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

I have not said otherwise. I agree that the set feels clunky outside of Momentum. However, the key word there is "feels": a large part of it is because the animators did a really great job of making the attacks look clunky outside of Momentum, rather than because the animations actually are longer. The attacks you lead with on a fresh spawn are as fast, or just slightly slower than, everyone else's strong attacks that they would lead with. For example, in Rad Melee you probably lead with Devastating Blow or Atom Smasher, either of which is slower than Rend Armor.

 

If every other power set needs a buff, then it sounds like we are in agreement that TW offers higher performance than other melee sets.

And feel is everything. Take EM for instance on paper it looks OP still.  High st burst damage.   Go play it.  It IMO borderline sucks, to some/most it outright sucks.

 

Take psi melee and rad melee, same animation times as EM, but feel 100% better.  They flow better, their mechanics work better.

 

Thats why TW isnt an outlier IMO, it has a mechanic that when utilized it puts it inline with the better sets with cool mechanics, both damage wise and feeling.  If you mess up on it its far more unforgiving than the rest.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Infinitum

[Haijinx]

Im not sure what is meant by "messing up" 

 

Hitting build momentum at the wrong time?

[Hopeling]

17 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I said that if the other sets feel that bad 100% of the time,

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

And feel is everything.

I honestly think you're being misled by "feel" here. You keep stressing that you're going by feel instead of by the numbers, and I think that is giving you the wrong impression here.

 

If you play a set like Broadsword, you'll notice that the weapon moves more quickly than TW does, but then your character just seems to pause between attacks for no reason. There's basically dead time at the beginning and end of the animation where not much is happening, and the damage is delivered in the middle. With TW attacks, the weapon connects and damage is dealt at the very end of the animation, which makes it feel slow. But there's no dead time where you character is just kind of standing there or ponderously returning to a neutral stance; attacks flow right into each other. The attacks are all only a bit slower than other sets overall, but they feel much slower because they fill the entire allotted animation time.

 

Similarly, missing an attack and failing to get Momentum feels terrible because you know you could have had a fast attack. But when you use Devastating Blow and then have to slow-cast an Atom Smasher, that doesn't feel bad because Atom Smasher is always slow. That's not a question of performance, but of player psychology.

 

The devs did a great job of making Momentum feel like a huge downside. I'm saying that, in terms of actual performance, it is not much of a downside, and more than balanced out by its own upside (very fast animations once you have the buff).

Edited September 11, 2019 by Hopeling

[ZeeHero]

I would leave TW alone and improve the aoe of sets like EM and DM by a lot.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

I honestly think you're being misled by "feel" here. You keep stressing that you're going by feel instead of by the numbers, and I think that is giving you the wrong impression here.

 

If you play a set like Broadsword, you'll notice that the weapon moves more quickly than TW does, but then your character just seems to pause between attacks for no reason. There's basically dead time at the beginning and end of the animation where not much is happening, and the damage is delivered in the middle. With TW attacks, the weapon connects and damage is dealt at the very end of the animation, which makes it feel slow. But there's no dead time where you character is just kind of standing there or ponderously returning to a neutral stance; attacks flow right into each other. The attacks are all only a bit slower than other sets overall, but they feel much slower because they fill the entire allotted animation time.

 

Similarly, missing an attack and failing to get Momentum feels terrible because you know you could have had a fast attack. But when you use Devastating Blow and then have to slow-cast an Atom Smasher, that doesn't feel bad because Atom Smasher is always slow. That's not a question of performance, but of player psychology.

 

The devs did a great job of making Momentum feel like a huge downside. I'm saying that, in terms of actual performance, it is not much of a downside, and more than balanced out by its own upside (very fast animations once you have the buff).

Look chief, ask any former EM player how much feel matters to them and how bad nerfs to a well performing set sucks. Then get back to me.

 

What you guys are suggesting are nerfs for the sake of having something to nerf just to make other sets look less sucky, and if we are honest TW isnt game breaking as is, and you know it.  Neither was EM.  Its broke now though.

 

So again, agree to disagree with you, but no rambling TLDR post attempting to tell me my IN GAME experience is wrong is going to work with me.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

I would leave TW alone and improve the aoe of sets like EM and DM by a lot.

That makes too much sense though, they are blood thirsty for nerfs juat like the same types were back in the day with EM.

 

Most of them never played an EM either, kinda like some on here with TW.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Infinitum

[Rylas]

16 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

And feel is everything. Take EM for instance on paper it looks OP still.  High st burst damage.   Go play it.  It IMO borderline sucks, to some/most it outright sucks.

 

Take psi melee and rad melee, same animation times as EM, but feel 100% better.  They flow better, their mechanics work better.

 

Thats why TW isnt an outlier IMO, it has a mechanic that when utilized it puts it inline with the better sets with cool mechanics, both damage wise and feeling.  If you mess up on it its far more unforgiving than the rest.

Hold up. EM had a completely different issue going that made its nerf so horrific. It's almost all ST damage with only one weak AoE. It wasn't just a matter of feeling slow after the nerf. It was that the nerf literally took away the only niche of the powerset - to be a fast and efficient ST damage dealer/boss killer. Before the nerf it was still pretty slow for clearing out groups and the numbers that have been shown for it didn't put it at the top of the list for performance.

 

The amount of AoE and range that TW has already puts it in a completely different house than EM.

 

While I'm not eager to see nerfs handed out to any sets, I find the numbers presented to be a bit difficult to hand wave away like you've been doing. And I'm still not sold on TW requiring one yet. But let's be honest with ourselves, numbers like that (even without Momentum) are pretty solid numbers. Whether it feels like that or not. Feelings, after all, aren't fact.

 

That said, I'd like to see what the average in-game performance is like for most TW players. Not sure that kind of data can be gathered. But I wonder if TW performs better alone than on teams. My 30 levels of playing it have been in teams, and I do notice a lot of out-of-Momentum time due to teams wiping enemies quickly. I'd also like to see a DPS chart for TW if it just never had Momentum. If those numbers were still at the top of performances, then *perhaps* an adjustment is needed.

[Rylas]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Look chief, ask any former EM player how much feel matters to them and how bad nerfs to a well performing set sucks. Then get back to me.

I'm a former and current EM player. I even started a thread for getting it some tender loving care. As I pointed out already, the issues with EM are more than just "feels". And I would never try to use just "feelings" as a main argument for anything, because we all have them, they're all different, and none can be weighed more than the other.

 

Hence, numbers and real world results.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Rylas said:

Hold up. EM had a completely different issue going that made its nerf so horrific. It's almost all ST damage with only one weak AoE. It wasn't just a matter of feeling slow after the nerf. It was that the nerf literally took away the only niche of the powerset - to be a fast and efficient ST damage dealer/boss killer. Before the nerf it was still pretty slow for clearing out groups and the numbers that have been shown for it didn't put it at the top of the list for performance.

 

The amount of AoE and range that TW has already puts it in a completely different house than EM.

 

While I'm not eager to see nerfs handed out to any sets, I find the numbers presented to be a bit difficult to hand wave away like you've been doing. And I'm still not sold on TW requiring one yet. But let's be honest with ourselves, numbers like that (even without Momentum) are pretty solid numbers. Whether it feels like that or not. Feelings, after all, aren't fact.

 

That said, I'd like to see what the average in-game performance is like for most TW players. Not sure that kind of data can be gathered. But I wonder if TW performs better alone than on teams. My 30 levels of playing it have been in teams, and I do notice a lot of out-of-Momentum time due to teams wiping enemies quickly. I'd also like to see a DPS chart for TW if it just never had Momentum. If those numbers were still at the top of performances, then *perhaps* an adjustment is needed.

It's a very similar situation to EM, just different damage type.  Its also got to be built right, and played correctly for it to work, kinda like EM used to be with utilizing recharge and correct attack chain to get two ETs in one build up cycle.

 

Thats why its similar to EM

 

And by your logic about EM its still a solid boss killer ST machine, according to the numbers anyway, how does it feel in game though?