Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Rylas said:

I'm a former and current EM player. I even started a thread for getting it some tender loving care. As I pointed out already, the issues with EM are more than just "feels". And I would never try to use just "feelings" as a main argument for anything, because we all have them, they're all different, and none can be weighed more than the other.

 

Hence, numbers and real world results.

 I can give you gaudy EM numbers that says the set is fine then.  It's still a circus trick.

 

Doesnt feel fine in game because the animation makes it unreliable.  Kinda like TW outside of momentum.

[Hopeling]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Look chief, ask any former EM player how much feel matters to them and how bad nerfs to a well performing set sucks. Then get back to me.

 

What you guys are suggesting are nerfs for the sake of having something to nerf just to make other sets look less sucky, and if we are honest TW isnt game breaking as is, and you know it.  Neither was EM.  Its broke now though.

 

So again, agree to disagree with you, but no rambling TLDR post attempting to tell me my IN GAME experience is wrong is going to work with me.

Sure, but EM is also terrible on paper. It has godawful AoE, mediocre DPA on all but one attack, no secondary effects besides unreliable ST stuns, and that one decent attack has the worst downside out of any melee attack in the game.

 

I apologize, but I can't defer to your in-game experience, because it contradicts my in-game experience, as well as every kind of analysis I can think of. If you don't feel this conversation is going anywhere productive, I'm happy to tap out, though.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Hopeling said:

Sure, but EM is also terrible on paper. It has godawful AoE, mediocre DPA on all but one attack, no secondary effects besides unreliable ST stuns, and that one decent attack has the worst downside out of any melee attack in the game.

 

I apologize, but I can't defer to your in-game experience, because it contradicts my in-game experience, as well as every kind of analysis I can think of. If you don't feel this conversation is going anywhere productive, I'm happy to tap out, though.

On paper EM has the largest ST output there is, still.  It's just too slow because a lot of the time you are corpse bombing.

 

Why not nerf TW to bring it in line with EM then?  If it's so bad?   Right?

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

I apologize, but I can't defer to your in-game experience, because it contradicts my in-game experience, as well as every kind of analysis I can think of. If you don't feel this conversation is going anywhere productive, I'm happy to tap out, though.

Im not asking you to defer, but you are being a bit dishonest if you are trying to sell TW output without momentum being in line with other sets.

[Hopeling]

26 minutes ago, Rylas said:

I'd also like to see a DPS chart for TW if it just never had Momentum. If those numbers were still at the top of performances, then *perhaps* an adjustment is needed.

It's definitely not topping any charts without Momentum. But it's actually not bottom of the barrel either. For example, the hypothetical chain SlowRend-SlowArc-FT-SlowCB actually gives slightly better DPS on a single target than Headsplitter-Disembowel-Hack, the best Broadsword chain (47 vs 42, using base numbers for a Brute and ignoring the -res in Rend). Broadsword isn't a great set for ST DPS, but it's not the very worst.

 

If you mean literally no Momentum so that Follow Through and Whirling Smash are disallowed, it's gonna suck.

10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Im not asking you to defer, but you are being a bit dishonest if you are trying to sell TW output without momentum being in line with other sets.

I have not said that. I said that TW attacks without momentum are comparably slow to other sets' heavy hitters, as a counterpoint to the claim that TW's major weakness is that, if you mess up, you have to use a slow attack. If that is so, most melee sets have that weakness, and are messing up all the time.

 

I agree that if you literally deleted Momentum as a mechanic and used the slow animations all the time, the set as a whole would be underpowered.

15 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

On paper EM has the largest ST output there is, still.

How do you figure? I don't see any way for an EM chain to beat, say, Rend-FT-Arc-CB-FT. That chain has higher DPS than Energy Transfer's DPA, and the rest of the Energy chain is only going to get worse from there.

 

If you mean 'on paper, EM has the largest single hit of any set', sure, that's true. It's true in play too. Large single hits are kind of meaningless though. That's not a theory vs practice thing; having the largest single hit is pretty meaningless even in theory.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Hopeling

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Hopeling said:

It's definitely not topping any charts without Momentum. But it's actually not bottom of the barrel either. For example, the hypothetical chain SlowRend-SlowArc-FT-SlowCB actually gives slightly better DPS on a single target than Headsplitter-Disembowel-Hack, the best Broadsword chain (47 vs 42, using base numbers for a Brute and ignoring the -res in Rend). Broadsword isn't a great set for ST DPS, but it's not the very worst.

I have not said that. I said that TW attacks without momentum are comparably slow to other sets' heavy hitters, as a counterpoint to the claim that TW is weak because if you mess up you have to use a slow attack. I agree that if you literally deleted Momentum as a mechanic and used the slow animations all the time, the set as a whole would be underpowered.

How do you figure? I don't see any way for an EM chain to beat, say, Rend-FT-Arc-CB-FT. That chain has higher DPS than Energy Transfer's DPA, and the rest of the Energy chain is only going to get worse from there.

 

If you mean 'on paper, EM has the largest single hit of any set', sure, that's true. It's true in play too. Large single hits are kind of meaningless though. That's not a theory vs practice thing; having the largest single hit is pretty meaningless even in theory.

Not talking AOE there, Single target.  EM will take down a Boss or AV faster than TW.  Still doesn't make the set fun though.

[Rylas]

32 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

It's a very similar situation to EM, just different damage type.  Its also got to be built right, and played correctly for it to work, kinda like EM used to be with utilizing recharge and correct attack chain to get two ETs in one build up cycle.

 

Thats why its similar to EM

 

And by your logic about EM its still a solid boss killer ST machine, according to the numbers anyway, how does it feel in game though?

Though not relevant to balance and performance issues, it still *feels* slower. Performance wise, it is also slower than it was. The numbers are in the thread linked in my sig, and they're nothing like you seem to be insinuating. Perhaps I'm inferring something that's not there, but it is by no means close to a top performer or even middle-road.

 

But until you're willing to accept the factual evidence that are numbers, I'm not sure you're coming to the discussion with any kind of objectivity.

[William Valence]

15 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Not talking AOE there, Single target.  EM will take down a Boss or AV faster than TW.  Still doesn't make the set fun though.

Could you explain your reasoning on this?

 

Kind of goes against most people's experience and numerical examinations of EM.

[Haijinx]

I'm curious, how much of the "non formula" damage is in the DOT?

 

I don't yet agree it should be nerfed, but removing the DOT aspects would hurt real play less than av/pylon times.

 

 

 

[Hopeling]

14 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Not talking AOE there, Single target.  EM will take down a Boss or AV faster than TW.  Still doesn't make the set fun though.

Right, that's the thing I'm disagreeing with. EM is terrible, on paper and in practice, even for ST burst DPS. By the time you get through ET+TF (338 damage base, 6.3 seconds), a TW character has landed Rend-Follow Through-Arc-Crushing Blow (418 damage base, 6 seconds and change), even more if we're including Build Momentum. I'm not even saying TW is the only set that matches or beats it in ST either.

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

I'm curious, how much of the "non formula" damage is in the DOT?

None of it. The powers deal extra damage beyond the formula before even counting the DoT; the DoT is then even further extra. That's why I proposed it should be the first thing to go in a potential nerf.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Right, that's the thing I'm disagreeing with. EM is terrible, on paper and in practice, even for ST burst DPS. By the time you get through ET+TF (338 damage base, 6.3 seconds), a TW character has landed Rend-Follow Through-Arc-Crushing Blow (418 damage base, 6 seconds and change), even more if we're including Build Momentum. I'm not even saying TW is the only set that matches or beats it in ST either.

None of it. The powers deal extra damage beyond the formula before even counting the DoT; the DoT is then even further extra. That's why I proposed it should be the first thing to go in a potential nerf.

If you can slip 2 ETs into a build up cycle which is hard but not impossible it does more ST burst.

 

I built it just to do that, and it works but not as good as it did.

[Haijinx]

All those dots would def improve pylon times, but you wouldn't much feel them in team play.

 

That could help explain "some" of why the set doesn't feel as ST awesome (at least with no real +recharge) as it supposedly should.

 

Also an AV or Pylon is best case for momentum too, least AVs that stand and fight.

 

Of course Bio might be multiplying the higher numbers making it a big part of this. 

[Hopeling]

Just now, Infinitum said:

If you can slip 2 ETs into a build up cycle which is hard but not impossible it does more ST burst.

More than what? I don't see any possible chain of attacks that would do more damage inside Build Up than plenty of other sets can do in the same period of time.

[Hopeling]

Just now, Haijinx said:

All those dots would def improve pylon times, but you wouldn't much feel them in team play.

I don't think that is true. The Follow Through DoT finishes in 1.6 seconds; the Whirling Smash DoT in 2.1. I mean sure, the target can die before getting the full value, but they don't have to live very long to get full use out of it, basically just through one more attack.

[Haijinx]

People never let dots finish though, so the team will hit them immediately with other attacks.  

 

Heck i never even let my own dots finish, id just hit them again.  

 

So you go into an overkill situation.  

 

1.6 is a nice fast DOT though at least.

[Rylas]

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

If you can slip 2 ETs into a build up cycle which is hard but not impossible it does more ST burst.

 

I built it just to do that, and it works but not as good as it did.

Are you comparing that to sets that wouldn't be using the same amount of global recharge that's required to have two BU ETs?

[Rylas]

52 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

It's definitely not topping any charts without Momentum. But it's actually not bottom of the barrel either. For example, the hypothetical chain SlowRend-SlowArc-FT-SlowCB actually gives slightly better DPS on a single target than Headsplitter-Disembowel-Hack, the best Broadsword chain (47 vs 42, using base numbers for a Brute and ignoring the -res in Rend). Broadsword isn't a great set for ST DPS, but it's not the very worst.

 

If you mean literally no Momentum so that Follow Through and Whirling Smash are disallowed, it's gonna suck.

I just meant no Momentum, but still having all its powers. Thanks for the analysis, that's definitely something to consider.

[Infinitum]

34 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Right, that's the thing I'm disagreeing with. EM is terrible, on paper and in practice, even for ST burst DPS. By the time you get through ET+TF (338 damage base, 6.3 seconds), a TW character has landed Rend-Follow Through-Arc-Crushing Blow (418 damage base, 6 seconds and change), even more if we're including Build Momentum. I'm not even saying TW is the only set that matches or beats it in ST either.

None of it. The powers deal extra damage beyond the formula before even counting the DoT; the DoT is then even further extra. That's why I proposed it should be the first thing to go in a potential nerf.

DO you know the animation time for TW attacks on momentum?

[GM Sijin]

If there's any attack power set that I'd be okay with being toned down a touch, it's Titan Weapons. I believe the issue with the set is mostly in that it simply scales better than every other set in the game. Individual attacks hit harder, but when you only have a few attacks that is pretty balanced out. When you start getting more attacks to fill every moment of your momentum with attacks, the damage skews. When you start piling on recharge to nudge out the weaker attacks from that chain/increase the frequency you get your big hits more reliably, it skews further. TW breaks the model with the momentum mechanic.

 

This means that any time TW is sitting still wailing on things for the entirety of their momentum, they're moderately stronger than other power sets. Single target, AOE, doesn't really matter since they have strong attacks in both regards. When they aren't, they lose that advantage and in some cases are moderately weaker. Other powersets have semi-similar mechanics (combos) but their effects are far less pronounced. That makes this is fairly unique to TW and difficult to balance in a way that feels right. Solutions that impact the maximum output far more than the minimum output are probably the best approach, since that scaling is where the difference comes in. Though I'd be fine with the set losing one/both of its DoT effects as part of a solution, personally, as those always felt a little excessive/out of place.

 

And yes, I've played the set. I played it when it was brand new on live. I've leveled 3.5 TW characters (same powersets twice) and I'm going to be making a TW/Ice scrapper and/or tanker soon to see how that combo sits with me. I've done content solo and in groups at all levels. At very low levels in group play with a decent spread of DPS I tend to feel far less effective. Conversely at high levels I tend to feel more like the Juggernaut no matter what the team comp is (though a couple good support behind a TW scrapper is, frankly, stupid). That's fairly consistent, too, as there's few situations where I feel ineffective at all, and pretty much all of those times when I do it's because my chance to hit has tanked. I've had people comment about the performance of my TW characters. Not just positively, either: I've had someone opt to politely leave a team I was on because they felt it wasn't fun playing with a TW brute, and have had people complain about it a few times. So yes, there are people who do care.

 

I'd love to see numbers on relative performance in a variety of areas. Low level, mid level, high level; no recharge, some recharge, permahasten+; stand and fight, routine mob packs, sparse mob packs; minimal/no movement required, moderate, lots of movement required; a variety of paired sets; etc. That would be far more useful than our anecdotal commentary, and all but required if you really want to approach actually balancing the set. But even with that the general consensus on how to balance the set, assuming a reduction is deemed appropriate, would probably remain pretty similar.

 

I don't mind it being a top tier set in every category, personally. But I also won't be upset at all if it's toned down slightly so that it isn't as much of an outlier across the board at the top end of builds, especially if there's enough practical evidence presented to suggest it is.

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, GM Sijin said:

If there's any attack power set that I'd be okay with being toned down a touch, it's Titan Weapons. I believe the issue with the set is mostly in that it simply scales better than every other set in the game. Individual attacks hit harder, but when you only have a few attacks that is pretty balanced out. When you start getting more attacks to fill every moment of your momentum with attacks, the damage skews. When you start piling on recharge to nudge out the weaker attacks from that chain/increase the frequency you get your big hits more reliably, it skews further. TW breaks the model with the momentum mechanic.

 

This means that any time TW is sitting still wailing on things for the entirety of their momentum, they're moderately stronger than other power sets. Single target, AOE, doesn't really matter since they have strong attacks in both regards. When they aren't, they lose that advantage and in some cases are moderately weaker. Other powersets have semi-similar mechanics (combos) but their effects are far less pronounced. That makes this is fairly unique to TW and difficult to balance in a way that feels right. Solutions that impact the maximum output far more than the minimum output are probably the best approach, since that scaling is where the difference comes in. Though I'd be fine with the set losing one/both of its DoT effects as part of a solution, personally, as those always felt a little excessive/out of place.

 

And yes, I've played the set. I played it when it was brand new on live. I've leveled 3.5 TW characters (same powersets twice) and I'm going to be making a TW/Ice scrapper and/or tanker soon to see how that combo sits with me. I've done content solo and in groups at all levels. At very low levels in group play with a decent spread of DPS I tend to feel far less effective. Conversely at high levels I tend to feel more like the Juggernaut no matter what the team comp is (though a couple good support behind a TW scrapper is, frankly, stupid). That's fairly consistent, too, as there's few situations where I feel ineffective at all, and pretty much all of those times when I do it's because my chance to hit has tanked. I've had people comment about the performance of my TW characters. Not just positively, either: I've had someone opt to politely leave a team I was on because they felt it wasn't fun playing with a TW brute, and have had people complain about it a few times. So yes, there are people who do care.

 

I'd love to see numbers on relative performance in a variety of areas. Low level, mid level, high level; no recharge, some recharge, permahasten+; stand and fight, routine mob packs, sparse mob packs; minimal/no movement required, moderate, lots of movement required; a variety of paired sets; etc. That would be far more useful than our anecdotal commentary, and all but required if you really want to approach actually balancing the set. But even with that the general consensus on how to balance the set, assuming a reduction is deemed appropriate, would probably remain pretty similar.

 

I don't mind it being a top tier set in every category, personally. But I also won't be upset at all if it's toned down slightly so that it isn't as much of an outlier across the board at the top end of builds, especially if there's enough practical evidence presented to suggest it is.

Im trying to calculate my builds DPS, what is the animation times for TW attacks on Momentum?

[Hopeling]

48 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

DO you know the animation time for TW attacks on momentum?

Crushing Blow is 1.2 seconds. FT and WS are 1.0s. I don't recall the others offhand, but they're in the 1-1.5s range. This is before Arcanatime.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Hopeling said:

Crushing Blow is 1.2 seconds. FT and WS are 1.0s. I don't recall the others offhand, but they're in the 1-1.5s range. This is before Arcanatime.

Is 326 DPS good?  I honestly dont keep track of DPS since live.

[Rylas]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 I can give you gaudy EM numbers that says the set is fine then.  It's still a circus trick.

 

Doesnt feel fine in game because the animation makes it unreliable.  Kinda like TW outside of momentum.

Then by all means, provide the numbers. I'm curious, though, do you find that numbers that don't support your arguments are "circus tricks" and ones that do as the only valid ones? Did you bother checking the ones in the thread I spoke of?

 

I hope you understand I haven't called for any nerfs at this point. I'm only approaching this with an open mind.

 

EDIT: Actually, scrolling through the thread, I see you've commented a few times and should already be well aware of how low ET's performance is. Or at least, had no qualms about the numbers presented there when they suited your desire to see EM improved.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Rylas

[Haijinx]

Em most definitely needs buffed.  It needed buffed before TW even existed.  

 

Its only good on blasters.  

 

There's already a thread for that.

 

 

[Infinitum]

16 minutes ago, Rylas said:

Then by all means, provide the numbers. I'm curious, though, do you find that numbers that don't support your arguments are "circus tricks" and ones that do as the only valid ones? Did you bother checking the ones in the thread I spoke of?

 

I hope you understand I haven't called for any nerfs at this point. I'm only approaching this with an open mind.

 

EDIT: Actually, scrolling through the thread, I see you've commented a few times and should already be well aware of how low ET's performance is. Or at least, had no qualms about the numbers presented there when they suited your desire to see EM improved.

If you read all my postings on EM even on your thread, you will see how i have always said it still hits hard but lacks the flow and feel of the original.

 

Never hid that, and i havent cooked any numbers to support me on one had and not support me to suit my position.

 

you of all people with your stance on EM shouldnt want to see another decent set nerfed because of what happened to EM.  thats borderline hypocritical.