Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Mr. Igneous]

Hello All,

 

Hope you are all well

• Taunt's target cap lowered to 7 targets.

Why this?  We were all asking for more targets for Taunt, not less.  Active Taunt should be the full 17 aggro cap, or at least 10.  Don't like this change.

 

I do like the boost to the Leadership pool powers.  I would like to see Maneuvers base be 5 percent instead of 3.5 percent to be on par with Weave.  That way it would be easier to decide whether we want both Weave and Maneuvers, or just one of them.

 

Later,

 

Mr. Igneous

[Myrmidon]

Dark/Dark Level 23: common 25s plus Steadfast KB, Miracle and Panacea procs.

 

 

Ran into Overdrive and rested aggro control. MUCH better with these changes than what’s on live. I let her go in to take the aggro, then took it from her (turned off CoF for this unless needed) and found it much easier to maintain aggro control, even without Taunt. I have a level 20 Dark/Dark Scrapper (with the entire build plotted out in Attuned IOs filling trays waiting for the levels) in a static team, however, I am seriously considering switching it out for Tanker today.

 

 

 

Push this patch live the moment that the bugs are corrected, please.

[Auroxis]

Happy about the leadership changes, it makes the tanker more of a force multiplier to make up for the loss of Bruising though you kinda need to pick up Assault to leverage that and it doesn't quite make up for losing a -20% res debuff.

 

As for this:

 

"Tanker modifiers to debuff enemy ToHit and Damage and Resistance with support abilities in epic pools have been increased, in addition to their modifiers to buff other's damage, to-hit and defense have been increased, making Leadership Assault stronger when used by the AT."

 

I don't see the resistance debuff any different on Arctic Breath, same 15% as it was before.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Auroxis

[Myrmidon]

9 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Happy about the leadership changes, it makes the tanker more of a force multiplier to make up for the loss of Bruising though you kinda need to pick up Assault to leverage that.

 

As for this:

 

"Tanker modifiers to debuff enemy ToHit and Damage and Resistance with support abilities in epic pools have been increased, in addition to their modifiers to buff other's damage, to-hit and defense have been increased, making Leadership Assault stronger when used by the AT."

 

I don't see the resistance debuff any different on Arctic Breath, same 15% as it was before.

 

The support PP abilities are listed as changed, not the damage abilities.

[Demon Shell]

For use as a quick reference:

 

Old Maneuvers: 2.28 Def

New Maneuvers: 3.5 Def

 

Old Assault: 10 Dam

New Assault: 18.75 Dam

 

Old Tactics: 7 To-Hit

New Tactics: 10 To-Hit

 

Old Melt Armor: -9.75 Res

New Melt Armor: -15 Res

 

Old Gloom: -5.25 To-Hit

New Gloom: -7 To-Hit

 

Old Darkest Night: -21 Dam, -10.5 To-Hit

New Darkest Night: -30 Dam, -15 To-Hit

 

Old Dark Obliteration: -5.25 To-Hit

New Dark Obliteration: -7.5 To-Hit

 

Arctic Breath is showing identical values on -res (considering Melt Armor's value, it may have been overtuned before).

 

Focused Accuracy from Mace Mastery is showing 86.5 in Mids and 48.44 To-hit Resist in test. I don't have a Tanker live with Patrons unlocked, but Brute live has 69.20 (which is higher). Tanker test does have 86.5 in Focused Accuracy from Energy Mastery.

Electrifying Fences from Mu Master is showing -16 in Mids and -4 (for 6.20s) endurance in test. Brute live has the same value and duration as Tanker Test. I don't understand how this one works so it may just be Mids using simplified notation (or being wrong).

 

Nothing else I checked was different.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Demon Shell

[Captain Powerhouse]

15 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

I don't see the resistance debuff any different on Arctic Breath, same 15% as it was before

 

Tanker -res mod was already as strong for tankers as it is for defenders.

 

Change the AT on the drop down to see how the power would act on other ATs.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Auroxis]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

 

The support PP abilities are listed as changed, not the damage abilities.

Arctic Breath is very supporty since you're giving up on very good attacks (fireball/ball lightning/fences/gloom/dark oblit) to pick it up, and Gloom+Dark Obliteration had their values buffed as listed above.

[Mr. Igneous]

Mmm....would it be possible to increase -recharge de-buffs also from the epic pools?  Lots of -recharge in Arctic Mastery.

[Snakebit]

21 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Happy about the leadership changes, it makes the tanker more of a force multiplier to make up for the loss of Bruising though you kinda need to pick up Assault to leverage that and it doesn't quite make up for losing a -20% res debuff.

 

 

Why not? Bruising only works on one target. Assault works on all targets, so every attack including ST attacks on non-bruised targets does more damage. How is this not better?

 

I know you are going to reply with AV, but that doesn't answer the question. 

Edited September 21, 2019 by cejmp

[Auroxis]

3 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Tanker -res mod was already as strong for tankers as it is for defenders.

 

Change the AT on the drop down to see how the power would act on other ATs.

Defenders don't have access to Arctic Breath, but on SoA it is 15% so that's fine.

 

The only -res buffed is Melt Armor basically, which doesn't make up for losing Bruising.

[Captain Powerhouse]

All powers are governed by modifier tables. Even if defenders don’t have arctic breath, you can change the modifiers displayed in the power info to see how it would look if used by a Brute or Defender (or any AT)

 

Melt Armor is a bit different for the AT than it is for defenders due to other design choices made long ago.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Demon Shell]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Igneous said:

Mmm....would it be possible to increase -recharge de-buffs also from the epic pools?  Lots of -recharge in Arctic Mastery.

I would agree. Without any mod to -rech and -run Arctic, Earth, and Mace get no benefit from this (and Leviathan could maybe get some more -rech/-run for Arctic Breath?).

 

Though even with -rech/-run being enhanced, Energy and Mu get nothing. Energy is probably fine, but maybe some additional -end for Mu (would anyone even care)?

[Captain Powerhouse]

29 minutes ago, Mr. Igneous said:

• Taunt's target cap lowered to 7 targets.

Why this?  We were all asking for more targets for Taunt, not less.  Active Taunt should be the full 17 aggro cap, or at least 10.  Don't like this change.

 

Taunt is 5 in live, this is still more targets that live. The power for tankers also does a lot stronger -range that made the 10 target cap increase too good at bringing near whole groups to your toes, so it was toned down a bit while kept higher target cap than brutes.

[Auroxis]

5 minutes ago, cejmp said:

 

Why not? Bruising only works on one target. Assault works on all targets, so every attack including ST attacks on non-bruised targets does more damage. How is this not better?

 

I know you are going to reply with AV, but that doesn't answer the question. 

 

1. You have to pick up Assault to make use of it, where-as Bruising comes without a power pick.

2. If you had Assault before, the difference is 8.25% which isn't nearly as good as a 20% resistance debuff against AV's and even EB's.

[DreadShinobi]

25 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Defenders don't have access to Arctic Breath, but on SoA it is 15% so that's fine.

 

The only -res buffed is Melt Armor basically, which doesn't make up for losing Bruising.

 

14 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

 

1. You have to pick up Assault to make use of it, where-as Bruising comes without a power pick.

2. If you had Assault before, the difference is 8.25% which isn't nearly as good as a 20% resistance debuff against AV's and even EB's.

Did you forget about all the other changes tankers are getting to make up for bruising including the base damage scalar increase and 150% damage cap increase? Those changes to buff and debuff modifiers weren't meant to replace bruising, take them for what they are.

[Myrmidon]

21 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Taunt is 5 in live, this is still more targets that live. The power for tankers also does a lot stronger -range that made the 10 target cap increase too good at bringing near whole groups to your toes, so it was toned down a bit while kept higher target cap than brutes.

 

With the Gauntlet changes that I have tested, you could leave it at 5 if you wish. 

[Auroxis]

4 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

 

Did you forget about all the other changes tankers are getting to make up for bruising including the base damage scalar increase and 150% damage cap increase? Those changes to buff and debuff modifiers weren't meant to replace bruising, take them for what they are.

Even if you tally up the damage buff and assault change together, you're still contributing less damage to an 8-man team without Bruising in AV fights. However with Assault it's not that far off how it was before.

[Trogan707]

1 hour ago, Mr. Igneous said:

Hello All,

 

 

• Taunt's target cap lowered to 7 targets.

Why this?  We were all asking for more targets for Taunt, not less.  Active Taunt should be the full 17 aggro cap, or at least 10.  Don't like this change.

 

 

Later,

 

Mr. Igneous

 

I completely agree with Mr. Igneous. The single most thing that makes a Tank differ from every other AT is being a better taunter.. a tank *SHOULD* be able to taunt a ridiculous number of enemies. Earlier in this thread there were people who claimed it was 'impossible' to raise the aggro cap of just tankers...so I am a little confused...Has this been tested with higher numbers in the new beta? Is it possible to make just tank taunts handle more agro? Could enhancements be allowed on that number? (10 cap plus 30% enhancement = 13 etc) Why is it only a concern that tankers taunt makes the game 'too easy' but so many other broken things get a pass?  In my eyes the agro cap and trying to figure out a way to make Tankers ridiculously over the top for taunting/aggro management should be priority #1 as the other AT's like brute are ridiculously over the top at what they do....just to get a clear defining role for tankers.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Trogan707

[Shadowfane]

On live the cap is 5

[Replacement]

5 hours ago, Auroxis said:

Even if you tally up the damage buff and assault change together, you're still contributing less damage to an 8-man team without Bruising in AV fights. However with Assault it's not that far off how it was before.

I feel like this conversation is 10 pages out-of-place.  -20 resist vs an AV = 6-9.6% resist, and the other changes are worth it.  Don't equivocate the Leadership/debuff boosts to Bruising.  If Bruising is cancelled through their damage and aoe buffs (which we talked to death before this patch), then these buffs are captain powerhouse taking it a step further and giving us a gift to help Tankers feel a bit more unique.  If you were the kind of player that liked being a debuff-y tanker, you now have a path to do that.  

 

Alert: I now feel compelled to point out to future generations: the next 3 pages is exactly two people against the loss of Bruising.  Please do not take this as a majority perspective.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Replacement

[Auroxis]

Just now, Replacement said:

I feel like this conversation is 10 pages out-of-place.  -20 resist vs an AV = 6-9.6% resist, and the other changes are worth it.  Don't equivocate the Leadership/debuff boosts to Bruising.  If Bruising is cancelled through their damage and aoe buffs (which we talked to death before this patch), then these buffs are captain powerhouse taking it a step further and giving us a gift to help Tankers feel a bit more unique.  If you were the kind of player that liked being a debuff-y tanker, you now have a path to do that.  

As I've repeatedly stated before, it's -13%. Losing damage contribution against AV's for even better AoE might seem like a decent trade-off for you, but not for me.

[Replacement]

Is anyone in a position to take look at what base Mercurial Strike (Staff, t1) should look like on Live?  Mid's says 37.37, I'm seeing 34.07 on Test. 

 

My live staff tanker isn't 50 so I think that's affecting it (because it's also lower), but while i'm at it, even though my Test tanker is 50 (leveled just to see if that was the problem), my training level is only ~35 atm.  Could this be affecting it?  Is mids' just a bit wrong here?

[Captain Powerhouse]

@Trogan707, tankers can easily get up to 17 target aggro with the use of a few moves. Taunt is not just a tool to grab aggro, it’s a ranged tool that lowers the range of all enemy powers to basically nose-distance, forcing them to get near you. This does not just mean ranged attacks, it also makes enemy cones for all purposes single target attacks (unless the power is flagged to ignore range or the foe has resistance to -range), because during those seconds the cone will have a range of basically zero.

[Replacement]

2 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

As I've repeatedly stated before, it's -13%. Losing damage contribution against AV's for even better AoE might seem like a decent trade-off for you, but not for me.

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Purple_Patch says an AV (which is supposed to be +5 at your level) takes the value multiplied by 0.3, which would be 6%.  I'm welcome to being corrected, I just like an agreement on facts.

 

As for losing damage vs AVs, .95 is gonna hurt them much more, and I think this point is important: offensive party buffs are no longer a waste of time to give your tanker!  

 

For every party composition that loses some damage vs AVs with this change, there will be another comp that is improved by it.

[Replacement]

4 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

@Trogan707, tankers can easily get up to 17 target aggro with the use of a few moves. Taunt is not just a tool to grab aggro, it’s a ranged tool that lowers the range of all enemy powers to basically nose-distance, forcing them to get near you. This does not just mean ranged attacks, it also makes enemy cones for all purposes single target attacks (unless the power is flagged to ignore range or the foe has resistance to -range), because during those seconds the cone will have a range of basically zero.

I can't believe I never thought of this.