Illusion powerset for Dominators please!!

[boggo2300]

51 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

I wouldn't cite other servers too much in terms of powers/archetypes, they're not exactly seen as the most credible example of how to balance a game.

wonderfully understated 😄

[Solarverse]

59 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

I wouldn't cite other servers too much in terms of powers/archetypes, they're not exactly seen as the most credible example of how to balance a game.

I am speaking more of the balance of the AT, not the server. Which is why I did not mention the server, because it's not a competition to see which server balances better than another. A lot of that is just ego IMO. I just personally feel the reasons given for Illusions not being granted to Doms is purely B.S. Now that is referring to the live devs, not these devs. As I have no idea what the devs on this version of the game has said, if they even said anything at all.

[Alchemystic]

9 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I am speaking more of the balance of the AT, not the server. Which is why I did not mention the server, because it's not a competition to see which server balances better than another. A lot of that is just ego IMO. I just personally feel the reasons given for Illusions not being granted to Doms is purely B.S. Now that is referring to the live devs, not these devs. As I have no idea what the devs on this version of the game has said, if they even said anything at all.

To be fair there have been a great many devs. The cryptic studio devs, the paragon studios devs, the SCORE devs, the resurgence devs, the homecoming devs... and during all that time Illusion Doms have been inquired about and each time the answer basically falls to "it isn't optimal in it's current state"

Edited January 8, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Solarverse]

7 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

To be fair there have been a great many devs. The cryptic studio devs, the paragon studios devs, the SCORE devs, the resurgence devs, the homecoming devs... and during all that time Illusion Doms have been inquired about and each time the answer basically falls to "it isn't optimal in it's current state"

The thing is, Illusions has never been a powerset comparable to other Controllers. It's soft control with emphasis on damage and aggro management through pets. So in the hands of a Dom, it's the same thing. Not as much control when compared to other Doms, but more DPS and aggro management. In the hands of a Dom, it makes for a great solo character as well. We seem to have a lot of players who prefer solo play and it's right up their alley. Illusions (imo of course) has always been a class of its own. So yes, if we are trying to make Illusions closer to the state that Doms are in, it won't work...it was never designed to work like other control sets. But if we put away the notion that Illusions is supposed to be some powerset that has a primary function of control, the set starts to make more sense, be it behind the wielder of Controllers, or behind the wielder of Doms.

This is just my opinion based off more experience than what most other players have...I have actually played the set as an Illusions Dom. It's not the powerhouse people may think that it is, but it is hella fun and it plays just as I expected it would. In fact, the particular set that I played, Illusions/Energy Manipulation, was actually more endurance heavy than I expected it to be. That was the only thing that stood out to me playing the set. I did not once feel as though I was OP and the set felt right behind the wheel of a Dominator.

 

If the Devs here try it out, and feel differently than I do, they always have the option to tweak the set to their liking. However, I feel if they are going to tweak it for Doms, then it needs to be tweaked for Controllers as well. Just my two cents and a perspective from somebody who has played one. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Captain Powerhouse]

For what it's worth: I agree with the live devs:

• PA is problematic.
• Removing it steals too much identity.
• Got to come up with a version of the power that is re-balanced but still retains identity.

Basically, whenever it happens, they will get A phantom army, but the powers the army has wont necessarily be the same the controller versions get.

[Solarverse]

29 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

For what it's worth: I agree with the live devs:

• PA is problematic.
• Removing it steals too much identity.
• Got to come up with a version of the power that is re-balanced but still retains identity.

Basically, whenever it happens, they will get A phantom army, but the powers the army has wont necessarily be the same the controller versions get.

I could see their melee damage abilities being turned in to control abilities. I think that would retain the identity, while filling in the lack of control for Doms. At very least, it's an idea to throw around at the round table.

[oedipus_tex]

I wonder what it is they feel is problematic about the power. I guess could be anything and we will find out if they release the set.

 

FWIW PA wouldn't be the only Dominator with an invincible pet. Plant also has one, it just doesn't hold aggro consistently, so its role is different. Same basic concept though. 

[Zepp]

Perhaps the best way to address the PA conundrum is to make them better at what their primary role would be for Doms (holding aggro), but decrease their redundant role (Doms do not need damage). In other words, either increase the heal-back portion,, decrease the time before heal-back, decrease their base damage, or take away their ranged attacks while giving all their attacks a taunt effect would be the best way forward.

[Alchemystic]

11 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

For what it's worth: I agree with the live devs:

• PA is problematic.
• Removing it steals too much identity.
• Got to come up with a version of the power that is re-balanced but still retains identity.

Basically, whenever it happens, they will get A phantom army, but the powers the army has wont necessarily be the same the controller versions get.

Perhaps instead of the typical powers they have access to, they gain these instead;

 

 - Screech

 - Will Domination

 - Penumbral Grasp

 - Time Stop

 

I think these powers work nicely for single target mez abilities the phantoms could have access too, keeping them varied just as before, but also keeping them close to the theme of illusions. Each with reduced damage and magnitude of course. I think this works as a rather nice compromise as it a) provides more Mez for Domination, and b) has less damage that that of the controller version. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Captain Powerhouse]

Controllers dont have offensive secondaries, so this would never work for them, but my idea is to make Dom PA use modified versions of the first 2 powers the dominator has. If it's a Ill/Fire dom, the Decoy would have Flares, Incinerate and maybe also Bind. Their powers would not taunt, though. It would go very nicely on hand with the new mirror theme for Decoys.

[Zepp]

If the coding is possible, I'm sure everyone would love that (even if the attacks are just cosmetic).

[Alchemystic]

44 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Controllers dont have offensive secondaries, so this would never work for them, but my idea is to make Dom PA use modified versions of the first 2 powers the dominator has. If it's a Ill/Fire dom, the Decoy would have Flares, Incinerate and maybe also Bind. Their powers would not taunt, though. It would go very nicely on hand with the new mirror theme for Decoys.

I'm glad something like this actually works! My idea for a 'Duplicates' mastermind set pretty much relied on pets being able to use the player's secondary powers 😅

[Captain Powerhouse]

Technically, the "tech" does not exist. This will require a high-maintenance approach of having the pet summon power (or the pet itself) check what powers the caster has, something that would require the powerset modified any time new assault set added to the AT.

[Alchemystic]

1 minute ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Technically, the "tech" does not exist. This will require a high-maintenance approach of having the pet summon power (or the pet itself) check what powers the caster has, something that would require the powerset modified any time new assault set added to the AT.

I know the 'Doppelganger' enemy group has a means of checking what powers the player has, could any of the code there be reused to accomplish this?

 

Or is it more alike to powersets like Shield Defense that have coding to prevent it from being paired with incompatible sets like Staff and Katana?

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

Or is it more alike to powersets like Shield Defense that have coding to prevent it from being paired with incompatible sets like Staff and Katana?

 

Like this. The pet would technically have all the powers and the powers they can actually use would be based on the internal name of your secondary set.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[Zepp]

@Captain Powerhouse

Currently all Decoy attacks do energy damage with a delayed heal.

 Do you envision them having the actual powers of the secondary, or something that looks like it, but does psionic damage?

 

e.g.

1.67s animation ranged (Psi damage, taunt)

1.00s animation ranged (Psi damage, taunt)

1.00s melee (Psi damage, taunt)

 

Animation linked to secondary...

Edited January 9, 2020 by Zepp

[oedipus_tex]

14 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Like this. The pet would technically have all the powers and the powers they can actually use would be based on the internal name of your secondary set.

 

That sounds very cool and ambitious.

 

I haven't seen inside the hood of City of Heroes power system yet, but I've done powers in other games. Would it be possible to accomplish this by awarding the appropriate powers as temp powers to the pet when the Dominator uses their Tier 5 special? Every Assault set has a power at tier 5 that is clickable without a target:

 

• Dark - Gather Shadows
• Earth - Power Up
• Electric - Build Up
• Energy - Power Up
• Fiery - Embrace of Fire
• Icy - Power Up
• Martial - Envenomed Blades
• Psi - Drain Psyche (this is the only problematic one)
• Radioactive - Fusion
• Savage - Spot Prey
• Thorny - Build Up

 

If you put an AoE effect in that power that hits only pets of the right type you could possibly "convey" powers to the pet. 

 

In fact you might decide to make Dom pets awesome and let us convey effects to the other pets as well. Gremlins with Thorn attacks and Jack Frost hurling bees at people? Could be a way to set Dom pets apart from Controllers.

 

Just a thought. 🙂

Edited January 9, 2020 by oedipus_tex