A “Call for Help” Difficulty Option

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Riverdusk said:

I wonder how much this would basically just turn every mission into a farming map.  Also, how much of a hit to system resources it might add.

Hopefully it turns some of them into team wipes.

[Haijinx]

It would definitely be best if LOS and a certain range (much longer than normal see you aggro range) be limiters.

 

Thus allowing for situational tactics

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

It would definitely be best if LOS and a certain range (much longer than normal see you aggro range) be limiters.

 

Thus allowing for situational tactics

Yeah, that was how I was thinking it would go, we are talking a momentary taunt aura on  one character, with an extended aggro range it should bring nearby mob or mobs not a room, hopefully just enough to overwhelm the herd and nuke

[Saiyajinzoningen]

isnt there a rikti that kinda does this already with a portal?

[Lines]

5 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

isnt there a rikti that kinda does this already with a portal?

It's less about summoning new mobs, more about doing something about the currently gormless group 20 feet away who haven't spotted their friends getting beaten up.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

yeah but isnt helping yur friends a heroic thing? bad guys dont mind if their partners get taken out less profit to split XD

[boggo2300]

37 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

yeah but isnt helping yur friends a heroic thing? bad guys dont mind if their partners get taken out less profit to split XD

A matter of self preservation, got a better chance of survival if you help your buddies whale on the heroes than fighting them piecemeal, though honestly, some of the mobs responding to the call for help by gettin' outta Dodge would be even better 😄

Edited January 3, 2020 by boggo2300

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i dunno man, isnt it more realistic for the bad guys to go "oh crap heroes!" and run away? 

[VileTerror]

Really depends on the group/faction.  Dumb thugs without leadership present?  Fleeing might cross their minds.  But so might the thought "crap, Jeremy's getting beat down!  If I help him, I can intimidate him in to giving me more Dyne, and then I'll be strong enough to ascend the ranks!"

As it stands, it's more like "ok, Jeremy's screwed, but if I wait for the hero's fist to cramp up from beating on his face, I'll be able to take her down and get that promotion to Lt I've been dreaming of!  Annnnnny second now . . . she'll get tired of punchin- oh.  Did she just pop a blue skittle?  Crap."

 

This sort of difficulty option is more appropriate to groups like Malta, who are ruthlessly efficient and cohesive as an organization to a common greater good (in their view).  It's not really for the violent and greedy 20-something kids looking for a sense of community with a drug chaser.  

And then we have a group like the Primal Clockwork, who are literally all just controlled by a single psychic entity anyway who would know instantly when his minions should get reinforcements.  If anything, the way the AI acts now, the Clockwork King has a really remarkable sense of "fair play,"  . . . which I guess isn't too out-of-character.

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

Really depends on the group/faction.  Dumb thugs without leadership present?  Fleeing might cross their minds.  But so might the thought "crap, Jeremy's getting beat down!  If I help him, I can intimidate him in to giving me more Dyne, and then I'll be strong enough to ascend the ranks!"

As it stands, it's more like "ok, Jeremy's screwed, but if I wait for the hero's fist to cramp up from beating on his face, I'll be able to take her down and get that promotion to Lt I've been dreaming of!  Annnnnny second now . . . she'll get tired of punchin- oh.  Did she just pop a blue skittle?  Crap."

 

This sort of difficulty option is more appropriate to groups like Malta, who are ruthlessly efficient and cohesive as an organization to a common greater good (in their view).  It's not really for the violent and greedy 20-something kids looking for a sense of community with a drug chaser.  

And then we have a group like the Primal Clockwork, who are literally all just controlled by a single psychic entity anyway who would know instantly when his minions should get reinforcements.  If anything, the way the AI acts now, the Clockwork King has a really remarkable sense of "fair play,"  . . . which I guess isn't too out-of-character.

As you say, there are villain groups that are disciplined and liable to follow orders in these cases, as you say Malta, Clockwork, to which I'd add Sky Raiders, Council, 5th Column, KoA, Rikti?

that actually covers a bunch of factions right there 😄

[boggo2300]

20 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i dunno man, isnt it more realistic for the bad guys to go "oh crap heroes!" and run away? 

not for all factions, though I did cover that with the

 

2 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

some of the mobs responding to the call for help by gettin' outta Dodge would be even better

 

[Myrmidon]

17 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

A matter of self preservation, got a better chance of survival if you help your buddies whale on the heroes than fighting them piecemeal, though honestly, some of the mobs responding to the call for help by gettin' outta Dodge would be even better 😄

Or run back until they hit another group, form up and return with more. Maybe some kind of team-aggro effect.

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

Or run back until they hit another group, form up and return with more. Maybe some kind of team-aggro effect.

Oh wow that idea is just too awesome, if someone can figure out how to make that work, just WOW

[Myrmidon]

15 hours ago, VileTerror said:

 

As it stands, it's more like "ok, Jeremy's screwed, but if I wait for the hero's fist to cramp up from beating on his face, I'll be able to take her down and get that promotion to Lt I've been dreaming of!  Annnnnny second now . . . she'll get tired of punchin- oh.  Did she just pop a blue skittle?  Crap.

That pretty much every single Batman fight when he takes on gobs of thugs. The last guy just watched a dozen of his friends hit the ground and still thinks lucky number 13 will be the one.

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

That pretty much every single Batman fight when he takes on gobs of thugs. The last guy just watched a dozen of his friends hit the ground and still thinks lucky number 13 will be the one.

It's a trope, not just for superheros but also martial arts, trash mobs gotta trash!!!

[GM Mathison]

I like the idea of groups of mobs calling in for support. You kind of see this with any mob that has a summon power already. That is an in place mechanic that could be utilized if/when mob powers are visited. I'd also like to see more support style mobs in larger packs to toughen up groups when they encounter a larger group of players. This also then gives targets of opportunity that CC ATs would want to focus on disabling to prevent the group as a whole getting stronger. These are ways to increase difficulty rather than just ramping up damage and defense values.

 

Good suggestions thus far.

[Lines]

4 hours ago, GM Mathison said:

This also then gives targets of opportunity that CC ATs would want to focus on disabling to prevent the group as a whole getting stronger. These are ways to increase difficulty rather than just ramping up damage and defense values.

This is exactly where my head was going. Crowd control is irrelevant when the crowd is so well behaved.

 

These different mob reactions could make crowd control - including knockback - much more significant to a team.

[gameboy1234]

On 1/1/2020 at 8:07 PM, Myrmidon said:

After some discussion earlier in another thread, there is an idea for a difficulty option that came up.

 

How about adding an option for enemy groups to call for help from other surrounding group? If possible, have some way for the boss of a spawn to cast some form of low-grade taunt (perhaps something similar to a one pulse Rise to the  Challenge) on their attacker that calls other units within line of sight and a certain radius?

 

Any suggestions or ideas?

This is copied straight from the original Everquest:

 

"Runners" in EQ used to fetch help.  You could develop huge trains this way.  In EQ it was crucial to stop runners before they got to a second group because they'd cascade: now with more mobs it's even harder to catch the low hp runners, who fan out and bring more, who then cascade onto you.

 

So I'd add that mechanic: runners who take off at low HP have a small pbaoe "taunt" that transfers their hate-list to any mobs they run past.  Such new mobs will then proceed to attack (and move towards) the players they now hate.

 

To prevent this from being completely off the hook, when a runner gets enough friends ("enough" being left to AI programmers and balance) it stops being afraid and also returns to fight the players.

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by gameboy1234

[Saiyajinzoningen]

arent some mobs already linked? so if u attack a group another gets alerted? or would this be like an ambush spawn?

[Lines]

1 minute ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

arent some mobs already linked? so if u attack a group another gets alerted? or would this be like an ambush spawn?

The boldened part, more or less. It's not to add more enemies to the map, but to increase the intelligence and awareness of those already there.

 

This would need to happen alongside a map balance pass. Presumably people are setting their difficulty to whatever group sizes they are comfortable fighting. So this couldn't just be the whole room hoarding in the moment combat starts, but a response to a few conditions. A significant goal would be for this mechanic to provide some more late-game utility and strategies for crowd control effects - ie, stop the runaway from going to get help, lower the perception of the nearest group or keep the incoming group out of range.

 

As part of this, I think I wouldn't mind seeing mobs being a little less densely packed. Every now and again, in moments of clarity, it's strange to have very large groups of thugs practising palming their fists in sync like they're rehearsing for Stomp.

 

[boggo2300]

13 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

arent some mobs already linked? so if u attack a group another gets alerted? or would this be like an ambush spawn?

I thought that as well (the linked mobs) but I have to say I've seen no evidence so I'm thinking I am misremembering from live,  as to your second question no, not adding ambushes, just aggroing nearby mobs already on the map, to get rid of the "I'll just stand here talking to my buddy while those 8 costumed special effect factories beat the tar out of my other buddies" syndrome which can be quite immersion breaking

[Myrmidon]

On 1/5/2020 at 12:55 PM, gameboy1234 said:

This is copied straight from the original Everquest:

 

"Runners" in EQ used to fetch help.  You could develop huge trains this way.  In EQ it was crucial to stop runners before they got to a second group because they'd cascade: now with more mobs it's even harder to catch the low hp runners, who fan out and bring more, who then cascade onto you.

 

So I'd add that mechanic: runners who take off at low HP have a small pbaoe "taunt" that transfers their hate-list to any mobs they run past.  Such new mobs will then proceed to attack (and move towards) the players they now hate.

 

To prevent this from being completely off the hook, when a runner gets enough friends ("enough" being left to AI programmers and balance) it stops being afraid and also returns to fight the players.

 

 
This was my first MMO, so I have no idea about the mechanics of anything that came before it. Any similar ideas are coincidence.

[gameboy1234]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

 
This was my first MMO, so I have no idea about the mechanics of anything that came before it. Any similar ideas are coincidence.

Oh, I meant my post: I copied the idea straight out of EQ.  I didn't mean anyone else was copying.  Sorry about that.

 

[Myrmidon]

11 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

Oh, I meant my post: I copied the idea straight out of EQ.  I didn't mean anyone else was copying.  Sorry about that.

 

No worries. I don’t care where ideas come from, so long as they work with the overall idea of what we are discussing (which yours definitely does).😁

[Myrmidon]

Anymore ideas?