Fade and Farsight Should Not Benefit from External Buffs

[nzer]

11 hours ago, Bartacus said:

Force Field would have the same issue IF you could cast Deflection Shield and Insulation shield on yourself AND your whole team AND they were a single power slot. Time is much better. Being able to Soft Capt Defenses with PB + Farsight for your whole team including you is far better than just being able to do it for your teammates and still having a hole when solo. That's the issue. Time does what FF does except better, and has offensive abilities to be able to use. 

Time does not do what FF does except better, it does what FF does worse, but lets the caster take advantage as well. Not being able to shield yourself is, frankly, a very small price to pay in exchange for a significantly larger teamwide defense buff, teamwide Mez protection, and freedom to take Ageless if necessary, especially given FF does absolutely nothing to generate aggro and has a readily available "I'm invincible" button in PFF.

 

FF is worse than Time, and most other support sets, primarily because the one thing it does tends not to be particularly valuable in teams after level, I don't know, 25 or so. But guess what, that applies to Farsight + PB also. Most teams don't want for defense buffs, which is why Time, despite being incredibly powerful on paper, is not actually a highly desired powerset. It does very few of the things teams really, really want, and the things it does well tend to be things most teams don't care very much about. Without the -res from Slowed Response and the +rech from Chrono Shift it would be nearly as "bad" as FF.

[siolfir]

11 hours ago, nzer said:

It does very few of the things teams really, really want, and the things it does well tend to be things most teams don't care very much about. Without the -res from Slowed Response and the +rech from Chrono Shift it would be nearly as "bad" as FF.

So tell me what teams want, what they really, really want? Okay, enough of that silliness, you should be ashamed of yourself making me have a Spice Girls moment. 

 

Time offers 2 heal-over-time powers, -resistance (as you mention) with -defense thrown in so you can proc it, +global recharge attached to the second heal-over-time (which also gives +end and +recovery for 30 seconds), a debuff toggle that's -dam and -tohit, a patch hold, single target hold, a click to-hit and defense buff, AoE slow/recharge/regen resistance attached to the first heal-over-time, and has a single-target +damage buff that you can keep on several people easily that also boosts their regen, recharge, and the effectiveness of your heals to single-target heal level. It also has some slows, and -regeneration comes in two powers for a max total of -150%. So I guess that it doesn't offer mez protection, but beyond that what exactly doesn't it do?

 

Is mez protection that doesn't come from Clarion really that important in your teams? Or is it just that Kinetics is the only set you want because it puts the team at the damage cap?

Edited March 4, 2020 by siolfir
edit on last paragraph

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, siolfir said:

So I guess that it doesn't offer mez protection, but beyond that what exactly doesn't it do?

I dunno, but a good many people don't seem to favor it, if it were so OP it would have caught on by now.

[Wavicle]

24 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I dunno, but a good many people don't seem to favor it, if it were so OP it would have caught on by now.

Time is incredibly popular, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

[nzer]

4 hours ago, siolfir said:

So I guess that it doesn't offer mez protection, but beyond that what exactly doesn't it do?

It does most of the things teams want, it just does them in very small amounts because it also does a lot of things teams don't really need. -res, +dam, -regen, +rech, and +rec are all things teams are always happy to have more of, and Time doesn't provide much of any of them, except +rech, because what it provides the most of are things that quickly become unnecessary in teams like +def, +tohit, -def, -rech, slows, and healing.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a strong set that will always be providing something meaningful, but it's not strong enough to be disruptive like a lot of people here seem to think, because the things it does really well, one of which is the topic of this thread, provide a lot less value in practice than they appear to on paper.

[Infinitum]

27 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Time is incredibly popular, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

 

Never said it wasnt popular but not as much as you would imagine.

[Infinitum]

Kinetics 22.9%

Radiation 12.6%

Empathy 11.5%

Time 9.4%

Dark 8.8%

Storm 8%

Force Field 3.4%

 

Just a spread there.

 

It's top 5 but not a close second.

[Wavicle]

These datasets show that I am correct.

Time is among the most popular buff sets in the game, essentially equal with most of the top sets.  The exception is Kinetics which is, frankly, overpowered.  More specifically Fulcrum Shift is overpowered.  Probably Kin should have a little bit more defensive ability and FS should have less +Dam.  Obviously I'm not expecting that or asking for it.

But the post I was responding to (I dunno, but a good many people don't seem to favor it, if it were so OP it would have caught on by now.) didn't say anything about it being THE top performer, and neither did I.

Time HAS "caught on".  It doesn't have to do as well as Kin for that to be the case.  The fact that it does as well as Dark and Rad demonstrates that I am correct.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

These datasets show that I am correct.

Time is among the most popular buff sets in the game, essentially equal with most of the top sets.  The exception is Kinetics which is, frankly, overpowered.  More specifically Fulcrum Shift is overpowered.  Probably Kin should have a little bit more defensive ability and FS should have less +Dam.  Obviously I'm not expecting that or asking for it.

But the post I was responding to (I dunno, but a good many people don't seem to favor it, if it were so OP it would have caught on by now.) didn't say anything about it being THE top performer, and neither did I.

Time HAS "caught on".  It doesn't have to do as well as Kin for that to be the case.  The fact that it does as well as Dark and Rad demonstrates that I am correct.

Kinetics is overpowered now?  Hah. Good luck taking that one to court.

 

This doesn't in fact prove the point of a runaway set being so good it affects choosing or not choosing other sets - which has been stated in this thread because supposedly time does too much.

 

It proves its as good as where it is but not even a top contender in every category like kinetics.

 

Time couldn't even beat out empathy on defenders.

 

Thats the only point it proves.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Kinetics is overpowered now?  Hah. Good luck taking that one to court.

 

This doesn't in fact prove the point of a runaway set being so good it affects choosing or not choosing other sets - which has been stated in this thread because supposedly time does too much.

 

It proves its as good as where it is but not even a top contender in every category like kinetics.

 

Time couldn't even beat out empathy on defenders.

 

Thats the only point it proves.

No, it's actually completely irrelevant, but I agree the claim that it penalizes choosing sets is also silly.

The valid point is about the amount of investment it takes to accomplish.  It's too easy, too few powers and slots, at too low a level.

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Kinetics is overpowered now?  Hah. Good luck taking that one to court.

and No, I was very specific. Kin is not overpowered. FS is overpowered and the fact that it is overpowered has been used, by the original devs I guess, to justify the Rest of the set being a bit weak defensively.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The exception is Kinetics which is, frankly, overpowered.  More specifically Fulcrum Shift is overpowered.

Yeah you did say it though, quantifying the latter does not remove the former.

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah you did say it though, quantifying the latter does not remove the former.

And yet reading in context is an essential part of reading comprehension. You cannot in good faith read the first sentence independently of the second.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

And yet reading in context is an essential part of reading comprehension. You cannot in good faith read the first sentence independently of the second.

You also can't separate the two.

 

Fulcrum shift is the marquee power of kinetics.  To a certain extent speed boost is also.

[nzer]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

And yet reading in context is an essential part of reading comprehension. You cannot in good faith read the first sentence independently of the second.

Context doesn't fix the ambiguity you've created. Are you saying kinetics is overpowered because FS is overpowered, or are you saying FS is overpowered, but kinetics isn't because FS is balanced against the weakness of the rest of the set?

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Fulcrum shift is the marquee power of kinetics.  To a certain extent speed boost is also.

That's exactly the problem.  So much is invested in those two powers that the rest of the set suffers.

[Wavicle]

Just now, nzer said:

Context doesn't fix the ambiguity you've created. Are you saying kinetics is overpowered because FS is overpowered, or are you saying FS is overpowered, but kinetics isn't because FS is balanced against the weakness of the rest of the set?

Ah, that's a good point.

The latter. Kin as a whole is ok, but it's too heavily dependent on its tier 9.

[nzer]

Just now, Wavicle said:

Ah, that's a good point.

The latter. Kin as a whole is ok, but it's too heavily dependent on its tier 9.

Fair. Though kinetics would still be a strong set without FS IMO. Siphon power can stack three or four times for a 75-100% damage bonus as well as -dmg, Speed Boost provides teamwide +rech and +rec, Transference provides teamwide +end, Transfusion is a very strong heal, and Siphon Speed gives the caster a lot of +rech which helps their other powerset. It's generally just really strong, though obviously FS is its best feature.

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Ah, that's a good point.

The latter. Kin as a whole is ok, but it's too heavily dependent on its tier 9.

Being a one or two trick pony isn't always a bad thing though.  Usually in normal leveling transfusion, speed boost and transference are highly useful,,then once you get fulcrum shift most teams only need that particular buff.

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Being a one or two trick pony isn't always a bad thing though.  Usually in normal leveling transfusion, speed boost and transference are highly useful,,then once you get fulcrum shift most teams only need that particular buff.

To me that's bad design.  The best designed powers are always useful, though obviously their usefulness does vary to some degree, I agree.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

To me that's bad design.  The best designed powers are always useful, though obviously their usefulness does vary to some degree, I agree.

If you are solo all the powers are still useful, like I said transference transfusion, speed boost, and even repel are all very situationally useful powers.

 

The meat and taters of the set is fulcrum shift, but just because it is doesn't mean the set as a whole is indicted.  That's mainly an indictment on incarnate abilities, and set bonuses - no I'm not looking for a nerf there but top tier builds don't need heals or endurance usually.

 

Fulcrum shift is the payoff punch for kinetics on incarnate teams and that's more than fine.

 

Wording about the lesser powers is like an incarnate tank worrying about their T1 not doing enough damage.  It's still there but I'm popping lightning rod, ko blow, crushing uppercut, footstomp, etc as much as I possibly can.

[siolfir]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I'm popping lightning rod, ko blow, crushing uppercut, footstomp, etc as much as I possibly can.

I want that powerset. >.>

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

I want that powerset. >.>

in the absense of COH i had that powerset on champions online.   doesnt compare though, i have a lifetime sub there and havent looked at it since coh came back.

[Bartacus]

On 3/3/2020 at 11:43 AM, Draeth Darkstar said:

Gotta say I disagree.

 

If you want to nerf everything that eclipses Force Fields, you're going to have to nerf damn near every set in the game, certainly every Support set. Force Fields has been garbage tier forever - and I say that as a former 6-year Bots/FF main. Traps's Foce Field Generator has been outshining the entire Force Fields set since 2007.

Nobody is using FF as a benchmark. Someone specifically said something about FF doing as well as time and that's, frankly, complete bullshit. That's why it was brought up. FF brings mez resist, and that's the difference. Time brings -res, +recharge, +tohit, -damage, -tohit in addition to bringing soft capped defenses. FF only brings softcapped defenses for teammates, not for yourself too, and it takes 4 powers to do it instead of 2. FF is by no means the benchmark, but someone tried to compare the two and tbh that's laughable to me.

I think the basis for this thread is that if Time's Defense buff couldn't be powerboosted, the set would still be top tier. And I agree with that. I don't think that even talking about Kin is a fair comparison because they do very different things. FS is very, very strong. But Kin also doesn't have ANY defensive abilities for yourself, and minimal debuffs. That's the trade off. Lots of damage, but lower survivability. 

Time, however, has basically everything you could want from a support set. Offensive buffs, defensive buffs (probably the BEST defensive buff in the game), and debuffs (including -res, -dmg, and -tohit). The only thing missing is an ability to debuff regen by a large amount. It has a little bit, but you'd need some help if you wanted to solo AVs/GMs I'd suspect. This is what makes time so powerful. And, it would still be very very powerful if you could not powerboost it's Defense Buff. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Bartacus

[Draeth Darkstar]

11 hours ago, Bartacus said:

Nobody is using FF as a benchmark.

You might want to re-read the OP.

 

Time is a good set. It's not the best set, it's far from the worst set. It's fine as it is.

 

Cold and Traps are much better offensively and worse defensively.

 

The outlier is Force Fields, which is a pure concept set now.