Suggested control type overhaul

[Lusid]

Here are a few (some major) changes to control types that i think would improve the AT overall, as well as get them out of the tight balance spot they're in. Any opinions on these or changes to these suggestions are welcome. 

 

AoE hold abilities cooldown reduced, duration reduced.
Purpose: Allow it to be up for each pull since CC is their damage mitigation. Also to combat the necessity of perma hasten as well as forced into stacking cooldown reduction. 

 

Add a -damage effect (Mez Sickness) when mez drops that lasts for a single attack. 
Currently when a hold drops, the enemy attacks instantly. Even if you apply another mez before the enemy's attack fires off, it still occurs. This would also alleviate the need for taking so many ancillary powers because of the constant concern for defense.  Reliance on sets, epic power pools, procs, and uniques, do not allow flexibility in builds. A boon for both solo and team play. This ability should only apply when a successful hold is broken to prevent spamming holds on AV/hero for perma reduced damage when the hold won't apply. 

 

Add some form of staggered mez drop from AoE holds, Each target having a slightly different duration so all don't just drop instantly. This would allow for controllers to do spot maintenance on their holds, also eliminating the anarchy of all dropping at once.

 

Add +mez duration as an enhancement, set bonus, or new sets that have them
Purpose: when cooldowns are the only thing you can improve these abilities with, that becomes then what they are balanced around. The result of which both demands builds incorporate this as well as balancing around the anticipation that these will be how they are built, limiting freedom as well as forcing certain builds to even compete. This will allow shorter base cooldowns and the option to have either short cooldowns or long durations. Options are good.

Edit: Ignore this. Completely brainfarted and forgot they even existed somehow. Leaving it here so everyone can have a good laugh at lusid, lol

 

This is more a global change rather than control types, but relevant: Change hasten to no longer be affected by cooldown reduction, similar to WP's t9. Increase hasten's effectiveness to compensate. Exact numbers would need to be explored, but about 140%-150% hasten for 20-30 ish seconds on a 3 minute cooldown would be a decent start.
Purpose: Currently, the reliance on making hasten perma likens it to that of a toggle. This change would make hasten more of a short burst of insanely low cooldowns. It remedies the reliance on it in builds, and would also prevent having to balance abilities around the possibility of perma hasten. As a note: Balancing abilities around their possible interactions is what paints abilities into corners with builds and balance. 

 

Add some form of identifier to all cc that can signify it's impending collapse, for efficient planning of gameplay. I dont know if the coding would allow for an icon above the enemy visible only to the controller, if not i'm thinking a change in it's graphic at the 10 second remaining duration mark. Smoke could puff out sporadically, vines can start to break and fall, lighting can short, etc. 

 

Split confuse effect into two: Mind Control and Confuse. Mind control would behave like confuse does now, where the enemy behaves likes an ally for the duration. Confuse would cause the target to attack random targets, ally or enemy. Purpose here would be to make confuse less of a hard CC (Lets be honest, it's friggin' broken) while letting it's powerful current effect to be still used for some abilities. Mostly the AoE effects would be confuse, while single target would be mind control. Mind Control could also use a visual effect like dark control's possess to differentiate the two.

 

Swap Containment and Domination. Containment gives a chance for critical hold, but more importantly increases (doubles?) damage done to held targets. An ability wasted on controllers, but would shoot dominator damage to damn near the top, if not the top. Domination lets all holds be double magnitude, increased to hit, and mez resistance. That is more suited for the dedicated controller, especially with the mez resist. This would let controllers be the more reliable hold class.

 

Yes, these changes would break many current builds (free respecs anyone?) but if that is a deterrent to making changes that are/can be for the better, these changes will never happen. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Lusid

[Saiyajinzoningen]

also whats up with water powers now having a chance to choke foes?

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

also whats up with water powers now having a chance to choke foes?

I didn't notice this, are there patch notes for it?

[Uun]

On 1/4/2020 at 8:28 PM, Lusid said:

AoE hold abilities cooldown reduced, duration reduced.
Purpose: Allow it to be up for each pull since CC is their damage mitigation. Also to combat the necessity of perma hasten as well as forced into stacking cooldown reduction. 

I would support a reduction in cool down, but not a reduction in duration. Duration is already short.

 

On 1/4/2020 at 8:28 PM, Lusid said:

Add a -damage effect (Mez Sickness) when mez drops that lasts for a single attack. 
Currently when a hold drops, the enemy attacks instantly. Even if you apply another mez before the enemy's attack fires off, it still occurs. This would also alleviate the need for taking so many ancillary powers because of the constant concern for defense.  Reliance on sets, epic power pools, procs, and uniques, do not allow flexibility in builds. A boon for both solo and team play. This ability should only apply when a successful hold is broken to prevent spamming holds on AV/hero for perma reduced damage when the hold won't apply. 

I don't see this as necessary. 

 

On 1/4/2020 at 8:28 PM, Lusid said:

Add some form of staggered mez drop from AoE holds, Each target having a slightly different duration so all don't just drop instantly. This would allow for controllers to do spot maintenance on their holds, also eliminating the anarchy of all dropping at once.

I don't see this as necessary.

 

On 1/4/2020 at 8:28 PM, Lusid said:

Add +mez duration as an enhancement, set bonus, or new sets that have them
Purpose: when cooldowns are the only thing you can improve these abilities with, that becomes then what they are balanced around. The result of which both demands builds incorporate this as well as balancing around the anticipation that these will be how they are built, limiting freedom as well as forcing certain builds to even compete. This will allow shorter base cooldowns and the option to have either short cooldowns or long durations. Options are good.

This is how hold, stun, immobilize, fear and confuse enhancements currently work. They increase the duration of the mez.

 

On 1/4/2020 at 8:28 PM, Lusid said:

This is more a global change rather than control types, but relevant: Change hasten to no longer be affected by cooldown reduction, similar to WP's t9. Increase hasten's effectiveness to compensate. Exact numbers would need to be explored, but about 140%-150% hasten for 20-30 ish seconds on a 3 minute cooldown would be a decent start.
Purpose: Currently, the reliance on making hasten perma likens it to that of a toggle. This change would make hasten more of a short burst of insanely low cooldowns. It remedies the reliance on it in builds, and would also prevent having to balance abilities around the possibility of perma hasten. As a note: Balancing abilities around their possible interactions is what paints abilities into corners with builds and balance. 

There is no requirement for perma hasten or hasten at all. I frequently skip it entirely. I don't think hasten is being abused and I don't see a need to nerf it.

 

On 1/4/2020 at 8:28 PM, Lusid said:

Add some form of identifier to all cc that can signify it's impending collapse, for efficient planning of gameplay. I dont know if the coding would allow for an icon above the enemy visible only to the controller, if not i'm thinking a change in it's graphic at the 10 second remaining duration mark. Smoke could puff out sporadically, vines can start to break and fall, lighting can short, etc. 

Doesn't the icon blink?

 

On 1/4/2020 at 8:28 PM, Lusid said:

Split confuse effect into two: Mind Control and Confuse. Mind control would behave like confuse does now, where the enemy behaves likes an ally for the duration. Confuse would cause the target to attack random targets, ally or enemy. Purpose here would be to make confuse less of a hard CC (Lets be honest, it's friggin' broken) while letting it's powerful current effect to be still used for some abilities. Mostly the AoE effects would be confuse, while single target would be mind control. Mind Control could also use a visual effect like dark control's possess to differentiate the two.

No thank you. Not sure why you think confuse is broken.

 

On 1/4/2020 at 8:28 PM, Lusid said:

Swap Containment and Domination. Containment gives a chance for critical hold, but more importantly increases (doubles?) damage done to held targets. An ability wasted on controllers, but would shoot dominator damage to damn near the top, if not the top. Domination lets all holds be double magnitude, increased to hit, and mez resistance. That is more suited for the dedicated controller, especially with the mez resist. This would let controllers be the more reliable hold class.

No thank you. Controllers have a 0.55 damage scale vs. 0.95 (ranged) for dominators. I played controllers before containment and it was painful. They need the added damage. Dominator damage is already near the top of the scale - doubling it would make them ridiculously OP.

[AlienMafia]

The +mez duration was funny since we've had this in the game since launch I believe and IO set bonuses have been around a long time too

[Zepp]

While reducing the AoE hold timers is something that may be necessary, although the durations do not need to be adjusted. Mez sickness might be nice, but not necessary. The others, I'm going to say nay on...

[MTeague]

On 1/4/2020 at 8:28 PM, Lusid said:

Split confuse effect into two: Mind Control and Confuse. Mind control would behave like confuse does now, where the enemy behaves likes an ally for the duration. Confuse would cause the target to attack random targets, ally or enemy. Purpose here would be to make confuse less of a hard CC (Lets be honest, it's friggin' broken) while letting it's powerful current effect to be still used for some abilities. Mostly the AoE effects would be confuse, while single target would be mind control. Mind Control could also use a visual effect like dark control's possess to differentiate the two.

 

7 hours ago, Uun said:

No thank you. Not sure why you think confuse is broken.

I suspect he may be thinking of Seeds of Confusion, which.... is... honestly overpowered. I mean, I love my Plant/Psi dom, and I would weep if Seeds were seriously nerfed, but if I'm gonna be remotely honest with myself it's ridiculous how strong the power is for so short a cooldown.  However, IF anything is to change, I think it should be targetted at the problem power in question, not a fundamental rewrite of an entire mechanic.

 

 

On 1/4/2020 at 8:28 PM, Lusid said:

Swap Containment and Domination. Containment gives a chance for critical hold, but more importantly increases (doubles?) damage done to held targets. An ability wasted on controllers, but would shoot dominator damage to damn near the top, if not the top. Domination lets all holds be double magnitude, increased to hit, and mez resistance. That is more suited for the dedicated controller, especially with the mez resist. This would let controllers be the more reliable hold class.

 

7 hours ago, Uun said:

No thank you. Controllers have a 0.55 damage scale vs. 0.95 (ranged) for dominators. I played controllers before containment and it was painful. They need the added damage. Dominator damage is already near the top of the scale - doubling it would make them ridiculously OP.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I hereby sentence @Lusid to level up a Mind Controller, without teaming and without being able to afford Proc's, all the way to 50.  Okay, I can't really impose any kind of sentence on anyone but really... Lusid....I do not think you appreciate how badly this would cripple controllers.  Also controllers already *have* a random chance to get increased cc magnitude, and that and the Lockdown Chance for +2 Mag Hold leave me plenty confident enough to solo bosses on a controller.  Maybe not an EB or an AV, but Lusid's suggestion would mean my Controller could lock down and EB and then be unable to deal enough damage to kill it before I run out of endurance.

Edited January 7, 2020 by MTeague

[Lusid]

Yeah total brainfart on the +mez enhances. Don't know why they were just erased from my memory temporarily. I deserve being laughed at for that one lol.

 

As for the containment and dom swap, i never viewed controller as a solo class. Yes, it can be done and yes people have shown it to do okay. They really shine in a group though. That's where the increased magnitude on holds would be best. I usually am in a team of at least two and continually wonder why dominator is a better controller than a controller. So yes, soloing is a good counterpoint to this but not a defeater i don't believe. More like the only reason to keep it that way, which could also be remedied by an increase in base damage scaling.

 

The confuse suggestion, yes is mainly at seeds, but confuse really is the strongest cc there is. The enemy cannot hit you, making it close to stun, but can hit others making it also a damaging attack. Just not on the target who gets hit by it. At the same time taking away all AoE confuse abilities would be no good. Plant/ dom is my main and seeds just feels like godmode. I'd say the same about synaptic overload but it has all the issues associated with chain skills, and mass confuse doesn't compete thanks to it's cooldown.

 

The hasten change, i've never built a character with hasten that doesn't make it permanent, nor have i seen many builds that have it and is not permanent. The ones i have seen that hasten is not permanent if you change the build a bit to make it permanent you'd see it as a complete increase in efficiency. It's pretty strong.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Lusid

[DrRocket]

On 1/7/2020 at 8:32 AM, Lusid said:

Yeah total brainfart on the +mez enhances. Don't know why they were just erased from my memory temporarily. I deserve being laughed at for that one lol.

 

As for the containment and dom swap, i never viewed controller as a solo class. Yes, it can be done and yes people have shown it to do okay. They really shine in a group though. That's where the increased magnitude on holds would be best. I usually am in a team of at least two and continually wonder why dominator is a better controller than a controller. So yes, soloing is a good counterpoint to this but not a defeater i don't believe. More like the only reason to keep it that way, which could also be remedied by an increase in base damage scaling.

 

The confuse suggestion, yes is mainly at seeds, but confuse really is the strongest cc there is. The enemy cannot hit you, making it close to stun, but can hit others making it also a damaging attack. Just not on the target who gets hit by it. At the same time taking away all AoE confuse abilities would be no good. Plant/ dom is my main and seeds just feels like godmode. I'd say the same about synaptic overload but it has all the issues associated with chain skills, and mass confuse doesn't compete thanks to it's cooldown.

 

The hasten change, i've never built a character with hasten that doesn't make it permanent, nor have i seen many builds that have it and is not permanent. The ones i have seen that hasten is not permanent if you change the build a bit to make it permanent you'd see it as a complete increase in efficiency. It's pretty strong.

 

The comment of the controller not really seen as a solo class, has been with other support classes a deep philosophical issue since the early live days.

 

A lot has to do with personal gaming preferences, and thus the begining of inter-personnal conflict. There are the team oriented perspective, and thus intolerance towards the Solo perspective; and the reverse is true. I dare say, both sides can make rather valid and interesting cases, incidentally.

 

For myself, I like to both play in teams and to be able to solo effectively. I don't see the reason or why they have to be mutually exclusive.

 

Lately the Defender's vigilance a semblance of compromising in this philosophical trend. Here is an Archtype that it's best primary powers does not affect the character, imagine a tank who gets no armor/resistance bonuses but the team gets them instead? And then the secondary is nurfed by 50%! Are there any other Archtypes whose secondary is nurfed in this manner? So enter a band aid fix, Vigilance, if the Defender is alone their damage is nurfed by 20%, its a start towards solo effectiveness, and in a full team they are nurfed by 50%. I have an issue with it all together, there should be no nurfing at all, for instance I have a Storm/Dark defender, the main contribution is debuffing the enemies' accuracy, please explain how nurfing the dark attacks by half is beneficial to the team? what is the rationale or logics behind such a nurf? how does this encourage the storm defender to be more team support oriented? I would think, if they could do full damage they would be supporting the team a heck of lot better!

 

Since this is a controller and friends thread, there is a solo and team component to the issue. From a solo or even on a team perspective, there has to be some kind of adjustment. With bosses having mag 12 ( I think) resistances to effects and controller attacks have in the norm mag 3 attacks with slow recharges, while mag 1 have quick recharges, it would take many rounds before a boss is held. So far the math is elementary. When solo this math is deadly, for the boss can with a quicky MAG 1 status effect take the controller out of action not sure there are any strategies and tactics that can consistently overcome this situation (yes an inspiration addict to play the game solution, is a band aid not a real fix, if this is so good, why not reduce the tanks resistance and make them dependent on tough inspirations to survive?). Staying solo, the damage is so comically low, that a poor controller is out of endurance after hitting and hitting a LT and really sucking wind with a boss!

 

In teams, it is not as bad, given you have a tank or brute with strong AGGROE abilities, lately these tanks/brutes there is an increasing trend to augment their damage at the expense of aggroe magnitude, this results with the poor controller and friends drawing aggroe. The controller has zip for inherent power status effect protection, and not much in the area of defense and damage resistance (these massive handicaps are mitigated at higher levels through the IO and incarnate system though) but while leveling, it just means that your controllers are going to bite the dust a bit too often, when playing take alook of who is dying and you will see it's the support classes doing most of it, and it is very unfair to accuse those players of not knowing what they are doing. Incidetnally when I play my Scrapper, I tend to remain away from the front lines and hang somewhere in between the front and support to provide protection to the support classes as I often see them stun/held/immobilized/disoriented, etc. and makes them incredibly vulnerable to any mob attack, the coverage becomes more critical if the main tank has weak aggroe abilities.

 

For Soloing the Controllers need the real ting damage, and the endurance to make good use of it. In teams, tank/brute aggroe holding is simply not a given, they must have better MAG level powers, with lesser recharges if they hope to hold a mob before it closes the distance in between the controller and the mob, otherwise is what you see all the time, death for the controller. Usually the mobs even minions are spamming some kind of hold, immob. or what not. It is hard as a controller to survive in either solo or team environments, and because there is a group expectation (and solo need) for area effects, the opportunity to get huge aggroe is al too good even if the controller waited for the tank/brute to engage first.

 

I do beleive the controller types do need help