Stalker/Ninja Blade/Golden Dragonfly Change

[siolfir]

32 minutes ago, TC said:

But I am claiming it is imbalanced and underperforming. It is clearly a lackluster set compared to it's peers. I've stated this multiple times and drawn multiple comparisons. This is true for just about every lethal set, or AoE lacking set, in the entire game.

There are 17 Stalker primaries. 6 of them do lethal damage (Broad Sword, Claws, Dual Blades, Ninja Blade, Savage Melee, and Spines), 3 of them have no AoE to speak of (Energy, Martial Arts, and Dark counting Shadow Maul as a single target attack since it's balanced as one but has a 50% crit rate). That's over half of the available primaries right there. So it's middle of the pack, then? That's not exactly imbalanced and underperforming.

[TC]

24 minutes ago, siolfir said:

There are 17 Stalker primaries. 6 of them do lethal damage (Broad Sword, Claws, Dual Blades, Ninja Blade, Savage Melee, and Spines), 3 of them have no AoE to speak of (Energy, Martial Arts, and Dark counting Shadow Maul as a single target attack since it's balanced as one but has a 50% crit rate). That's over half of the available primaries right there. So it's middle of the pack, then? That's not exactly imbalanced and underperforming.

Stalker, as a whole, is relatively underperforming unless you do take specific sets. A lot of the sets that do have AoE or non S/L damage are arguably the best sets and are typically the newer sets (to Stalker). Savage Melee, Psionic Melee, Radiation Melee, Street Justice, Electric Melee. All of these sets probably still outperform Ninja Blade quite a lot, even after my proposed change. Throwing some power to sets that have been forgotten is a great thing, in my opinion. I suppose you could argue it's middle of the pack for Stalkers, but overall I think the powergap between good sets and bad sets is pretty big for Stalkers. I don't have personal experience with all of them, so I am only speaking to the one I'm passionate about and having a thorough understanding of, however. Which is why I think giving it some more guaranteed single target oomf in a really satisfying, predictable way that simultaneously covers up a flaw with how the unique AT IO functions with the Ninja Blade attack chain would feel great.

 

My Elec/Shield Scrapper does slightly less Single Target damage to mobs with no S/L resistance and more single target damage to targets with it while simultaneously utilizing multiple TP nukes. Again, I don't see why not when things like Elec/Shield exist in the game.

Edited January 20, 2020 by TC

[Leogunner]

46 minutes ago, TC said:

But I am claiming it is imbalanced and underperforming. It is clearly a lackluster set compared to it's peers. I've stated this multiple times and drawn multiple comparisons. This is true for just about every lethal set, or AoE lacking set, in the entire game.

Are you sure about that?

 

Ninja Blade, while not a spectacular damage set, has great utility with its Knock up, Knock down, +def and the -def in every attack (allowing to slot -res procs).  There are sets out there that would be considered lackluster but NB (and by extension Broadsword) are not in that category.  And even the so-called "lackluster" sets have their advantages.

 

51 minutes ago, TC said:

Also, my main reason is how it feels more than anything else. Again, with the way attack chains work in CoH, I cannot reasonably utilize SD for the hide procs even if I wanted to. The attack chain moves way too fast and the procs are way too random. It's not just because SD deals suboptimal DPS (but more burst). It's because often the procs just get flat-out wasted because GD is next in my chain and it procs .2 seconds before GD activates. It's negative synergy.

Then reposition the hide proc.  Have you considered other ways to fix this "feel" you have?  I asked you multiple times, have you looked at other attacks for your needs?  Now I ask, have you thought to swap up your slotting?  Nothing you're saying here is justifying breaking the rule that ST attacks are the types that get guaranteed crits.

 

55 minutes ago, TC said:

This is not true for veteran players as evidenced by decreasing player numbers. You can only re-roll so many times in a game that came out in 2004. Rebalancing powersets or adding new features to existing powersets and making the game more challenging are the two most important things that can give this game longevity, in my opinion.

Foolish!

 

Do you know how many players are going to roll Illusion Controllers now JUST because it has the mirror customization option for Phantom Army?

 

Do you know how many players would roll Illusion Control if it were available to Dominators!?

 

I say again, foolish!

 

57 minutes ago, TC said:

I never said the set felt pretty bad, I said this instance in particular felt pretty bad. Overall the set is very fun to play. My suggestion is one that I mainly desire for gameplay feel, but it's the cherry on top. And it's a warranted cherry on top, as evidenced by blatant balance comparisons you don't seem to want to acknowledge. Single-target focused Stalkers are potentially the least desired team AT in the entire game and many AoE focused builds from a large number of powersets are able to solo +4/x8 content quickly.

That's fine.  I accept that you made your suggestion.  Like I said in my first post, I just disagree with it.

 

As for if it's warranted or not, you've yet to prove.  Your only evidence is that it feels particularly bad in your instance.  Do you have anymore?  You mentioned something about the set underperforming.  That would be your next viable argument to back.

 

1 hour ago, TC said:

I propose to give up nothing. The set simply deserves a buff, like the vast majority of lethal sets, and this would be a way to do that that would also feel great while working within the AT IO set they introduced to the game. Also, it does not feel like 50% crit rate at all. I don't know where I can check this number, but from personal experience it feels like 30%. Either way, I'd rather just make it crit and not roll the dice.

Well I'm sure having your cake and eating it too has its advantages but...well, we can't all get whatever we want.

[siolfir]

7 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

we can't all get whatever we want.

But if we try sometimes...

[TC]

18 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Are you sure about that?

 

Ninja Blade, while not a spectacular damage set, has great utility with its Knock up, Knock down, +def and the -def in every attack (allowing to slot -res procs).  There are sets out there that would be considered lackluster but NB (and by extension Broadsword) are not in that category.  And even the so-called "lackluster" sets have their advantages.

Well, yeah... Stalkers are a damage AT, I'd hope they do damage. The knock up, in my opinion, hurts more than it helps as I can't attack the target for .5-1s while it's in the air.I suppose that's preference. The +def is kind of pointless as softcap def is a part of most builds. The -def is nice, this is true. I do enjoy the -def against certain mobs. And the knockdown... eh, I guess I'll take it. It doesn't typically work against bosses which is where I would need it. But other meta classes have these kind of nice bonuses as well, it's not really a relevant point. Elec has -end, Rad has -def and a knocdown and it's own special bonuses built in, etc.

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Then reposition the hide proc.  Have you considered other ways to fix this "feel" you have?  I asked you multiple times, have you looked at other attacks for your needs?  Now I ask, have you thought to swap up your slotting?  Nothing you're saying here is justifying breaking the rule that ST attacks are the types that get guaranteed crits.

Power choice isn't really relevant. The hide procs at the end of the ability and all of Ninja Blade's animations are incredibly fast. I am already planning the next part of my chain when it procs. If you have the reaction speed for this, you should probably play an e-sport. My justification, again, is feel and the fact the set is, comparably, very weak when put up against other primary sets for Stalkers. I'm not a nerf for balance kind of guy, I'm a buff for balance kind of guy. I'd rather see this set buffed up than the other sets nerfed down to it's level. Not to mention the original argument for the change was the GD is rarely ever used as an AoE ability... it's nice when it happens, but you get maybe one other mob in it's tiny cone from time to time. It's effectively a ST power that occasionally hits something behind it.

Quote

Do you know how many players are going to roll Illusion Controllers now JUST because it has the mirror customization option for Phantom Army?

 

Do you know how many players would roll Illusion Control if it were available to Dominators!?

 

I say again, foolish!

 

That's fine.  I accept that you made your suggestion.  Like I said in my first post, I just disagree with it.

 

As for if it's warranted or not, you've yet to prove.  Your only evidence is that it feels particularly bad in your instance.  Do you have anymore?  You mentioned something about the set underperforming.  That would be your next viable argument to back.

I have backed it by comparing it to every meta set currently out that significantly outperforms it. I think this is time number three I have tried to showcase the power difference between Ninja Blade and other sets like Savage Melee, Psionic Melee, Radiation Melee, Street Justice, Electric Melee, or Spines. I would go so far as to say a lot of the Stalker sets are weak and could use a buff, but I'm not playing all of them; I'm only speaking to the set I can confirm is weak by comparing it with incredibly powerful sets that I do play. I just want my preferred Stalker set to even excel at Single Target instead of getting outclassed by alternative powersets.

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Well I'm sure having your cake and eating it too has its advantages but...well, we can't all get whatever we want.

Again, even with the proposed change, I find it difficult to argue the set would even get close to the meta sets.

Edited January 20, 2020 by TC

[Leogunner]

6 minutes ago, TC said:

Well, yeah... Stalkers are a damage AT, I'd hope they do damage. The knock up, in my opinion, hurts more than it helps as I can't attack the target for .5-1s while it's in the air.I suppose that's preference. The +def is kind of pointless as softcap def is a part of most builds. The -def is nice, this is true. I do enjoy the -def against certain mobs. And the knockdown... eh, I guess I'll take it. It doesn't typically work against bosses which is where I would need it. But other meta classes have these kind of nice bonuses as well, it's not really a relevant point. Elec has -end, Rad has -def and a knocdown and it's own special bonuses built in, etc.

And this pretty much encapsulates my opinion here.  Your view is steeped in late-game min/maxed perspective which, while useful when considering the overall usability in late-game content, is blinded by little things such as concept, 1-50 gameplay, BALANCE, and casual fun.  Not saying you cannot perceive these things, but dismissing the knockup/down when, from 12-35, it's likely vital to your survival seems...elitist.  The +def is crazy leveling up.  And the animation of Soaring Dragon is one of my favorite and most fitting in the set.

 

And which bosses does knockup/down not work on?  I know they exist but they aren't as common as the bosses that DO get knocked.  It's one of the reasons advocates of Knock- are advocates of knock...because it works on bosses instantly.

 

14 minutes ago, TC said:

Power choice isn't really relevant. The hide procs at the end of the ability and all of Ninja Blade's animations are incredibly fast. I am already planning the next part of my chain when it procs. If you have the reaction speed for this, you should probably play an e-sport. My justification, again, is feel and the fact the set is, comparably, very weak when put up against other primary sets for Stalkers. I'm not a nerf for balance kind of guy, I'm a buff for balance kind of guy. I'd rather see this set buffed up than the other sets nerfed down to it's level. Not to mention the original argument for the change was the GD is rarely ever used as an AoE ability... it's nice when it happens, but you get maybe one other mob in it's tiny cone from time to time. It's effectively a ST power that occasionally hits something behind it.

I'd probably just write this unfortunate misalignment onto build then.  Like, what if you swapped the hide proc into GD itself so that the next skill gets to benefit from it?  Or, like I said, get a high damaging skill that is ST like Zapp! or Moonbeam.

 

As for the rest, this is exactly why I presume to make GD a longer (or wider, as some suggested) ranged attack, so that it can more easily hit multiple foes so that it can be considered a good AoE.  As of now, it's what I call a "luck shoot" which while fun to try to get, it disappointing when you don't.  As for hitting people 5 yards away with a sword, perhaps you haven't seen enough anime?  If Rending Flurry can hit at 15ft, why can't a 3ft sword?

 

21 minutes ago, TC said:

Again, even with the proposed change, I find it difficult to argue the set would even get close to the meta sets.

It's not about becoming OP or meta, it's about competing for viable changes.  If GD became a 100% crit, there's less opportunity for it to become a viable AoE.  I feel NB needs better AoE opportunity than better ST damage.  You could say "Why not both?" and I'd say because once you open the gate, the "why not both?" argument then becomes an excuse to be held liable for.

[Galaxy Brain]

4 hours ago, Leogunner said:

As for changing powers for game longevity, in Coh, longevity is usually achieved by making new powerset, pools or proliferation, not by purposely escalating the power levels

Gonna play the Dev Time card here. It's much easier to tweak an existing set than make a brand new one. I for one, would definitely play far more sets of they were better and I cant be the only one on that boat. If underperforming sets are boosted they can often feel like a whole new set.

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Gonna play the Dev Time card here. It's much easier to tweak an existing set than make a brand new one. I for one, would definitely play far more sets of they were better and I cant be the only one on that boat. If underperforming sets are boosted they can often feel like a whole new set.

It frankly depends, tho.

 

First point, you yourself are thinking of means to mitigate development by utilizing existing animations for new sets, yes?  Do you think a set like Wind Control or a new concept like Atrophy Melee using old animations get more bang for your buck?  Which would get you more mileage, Mirror customization for Phantom Army or stronger containment damage on Spectral Wounds?

 

Second point, balance is a difficult thing to maintain so buffs should be scrutinized.  Imbalance creates discontent (the more of one, the more of the other).

 

Thirdly, I feel your opinion is a bit biased toward lethal damage.  While I do feel lethal damage sets have a hurdle to face, that is more a situation to resolve among foe resistance numbers, not unfairly buffing lethal sets over everyone else.

[Microcosm]

I keep seeing in this thread that NB is an under-performing set. If you can back this up with data you'd have a stronger case. Like Pylon times or farm clear times, etc. It's largely moot anyway because we seem to be talking about IO'd builds, but still, actual data helps.

 

It feels like trying to "fix" Lethal damage being a more likely resisted damage type than Psi or something by increasing the damage of one attack in one melee set, which is kind of odd. I think a different fix for Lethal being resisted is maybe more appropriate across the board. I don't disagree with that.

 

Or if the complaint is that NB is under-performing because it has 1.5 AoE attacks instead of 2 or more, why are we "fixing" that by increasing the single target damage of the half-AoE attack out of hide? Why not improve the AoE portion of said attack so it competes a little better with its AoE-happy friends? (I take some issue with the argument because NB is significantly better at single target damage than electric melee along with much better secondary effects, but for the sake of argument, whatever).

 

I'm not against buffing under-performing sets, I just don't think NB is one. IO'd it competes with Savage, Dual Blades and Street Justice for top single target damage (all s/l sets, go figure). It has less AoE than those three, but a significant def buff to counter that. It also just seems weird to pick a set like NB when there are sets with no AoE at all.

[Galaxy Brain]

It's a bit of everything @Leogunner, dont assume my biases.

 

I played that card based on my experience modding. It is far easier to edit existing assets than even making a new asset out of existing assets. Tweaking classically underperforming sets to have new shiny traits can be just as good as making a new set to a chunk of people who would otherwise never have bothered with it.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It's a bit of everything @Leogunner, dont assume my biases.

 

I played that card based on my experience modding. It is far easier to edit existing assets than even making a new asset out of existing assets. Tweaking classically underperforming sets to have new shiny traits can be just as good as making a new set to a chunk of people who would otherwise never have bothered with it.

And I didn't argue contrary to that. But you also run into the issue of player preference and changing viable characters. It's like in that Energy Melee thread where I was trying to get people to post varied ideas to improve the set, there's a subset of players that don't want bells and whistles added to the set. They just want the old ET animation time. 

 

And the bias I was talking about is in regard to your  "lethal damage not lethal" thread. I'm assuming you feel the set in question is under performing partly because it does lethal damage, right? 

[Frosticus]

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If underperforming sets are boosted they can often feel like a whole new set.

qft. gravity is a great example of a super fun set now. and it is getting another buff too with dingy now dishing out and using the impact mechanic. 

[Frosticus]

I like NB. I just run my chain. If hide procs that is great. If it doesn't, then so be it. The set does very high st damage once you add in the applicable procs and -res IOs. And a good chain that builds assassins focus well.  And it has tremendous survivability. Enough that it could easily carry /fire so you can add burn for good aoe damage. Or proc out rad armor for larger aoes that hit pretty hard. 

 

A lot of stalkers aren't great at aoe. But epic aoes are good from hide. Shield, rad and fire can all add good aoe too. Not everyone gets everything. Elec stalkers have great aoe but their st is mediocre compared to other stalkers. savage melee can be both but the damage is long duration dots. 

[Galaxy Brain]

7 hours ago, Leogunner said:

And the bias I was talking about is in regard to your  "lethal damage not lethal" thread. I'm assuming you feel the set in question is under performing partly because it does lethal damage, right? 

The bias I have is towards the pencil cones being weird design choices when Shatter exists. This thread is about one of those cones and I think they are poo 😛

 

As for the set as a whole, i have not played a NB stalker but I view Katana as a top tier melee set already despite being lethal damage.