Discord Weekly Discussion - Week 35: PVP

[Doc_Scorpion]

12 hours ago, siolfir said:

I agree with the first part that I highlighted, and completely disagree with the second. 

This is a logically inconsistent position to hold because the second point flows inexorably from the first. 
 

12 hours ago, siolfir said:

So instead of trying to gain interest by completely revamping everything to cater to some phantom player that will likely never be interested, you instead listen to the people who enjoy it and figure out why they enjoy it, what makes it unique here, and try to expand on those ideas, so that the people who like it will like it as much or more (theoretically increasing retention of the people who would leave as things grow stagnant), and bring in new players who are looking for those things as well.

A position that's impossible to hold while claiming to agree with my first point.  (Which is that you have to do something to try and attract new players.  "More of the same, only better" is the antithesis of this.)  Basically, you're just trying to springboard off of what I said into a rant about I13.

Folks, I13 was a long time ago.  It happened, and that can't be changed.  It's not going to be reverted.  The current dev team isn't responsible for it.  Let it rest already.  You're never going to fix or improve PvP in the future if you can't let go of the past.

[Gibson99]

29 minutes ago, macskull said:

 Literally nothing has changed about -recharge between pre-I13 and post-I13. It's not like movement slows where they removed -maxrunspeed from the PvP attributes.

 

EDIT: I suppose that's not entirely true, Defender debuffs used to be unresisted and now they're not, but almost no non-melee builds have slow resistance and most of the melee sets that don't get it in PvE only get 30% in PvP.

Top tier -recharge doesn't work like it had. Heat loss or lingering rad used to stop toons from attacking and they had to retreat. Now these powers are negligible at best. And if it's true nothing has changed,  then these powers need a buff.

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Gibson99

[macskull]

Just now, Gibson99 said:

Top tier -recharge doesn't work like it had. Heat loss or lingering rad used to stop toons from attacking and they had to retreat. Now these powers are negligible at best. And if it's true nothing ass changed, either way then these powers need a buff.

 

I've been on the receiving end of Heat Loss and you still play the "look at those tiny power icons" game. Recharge slows don't need any help, they work just fine.

[Gibson99]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

I've been on the receiving end of Heat Loss and you still play the "look at those tiny power icons" game. Recharge slows don't need any help, they work just fine.

I have been hit with heat loss and Lingering Rad today and pre i13. I also dished out these powers both today and pre i13.

There's definitely a noticeable difference in the -recharge. Today's toons are still blasting when hit with these debuffs.

 

 

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

I have been hit with heat loss and Lingering Rad today and pre i13. I also dished out these powers both today and pre i13.

There's definitely a noticeable difference in the -recharge. Today's toons are still blasting when hit with these debuffs.

 

 

If that's the case it's probably due to diminishing returns, but as I'm sure you know, being on the receiving end of -300% recharge still means you can't do anything once you've fired off your attack chain.

[Gibson99]

9 minutes ago, macskull said:

If that's the case it's probably due to diminishing returns, but as I'm sure you know, being on the receiving end of -300% recharge still means you can't do anything once you've fired off your attack chain.

DR, resistances or whatever ruined top tier -recharge, it is a completely noticeable degradation. 

Maybe the devs prefer blaster fest style PvP. A lot of people don't.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Gibson99

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Gibson99 said:

DR, resistances or whatever ruined top tier -recharge, it is completely noticeable degradation. 

Maybe the devs prefer blaster fest style PvP. A lot of people don't.

I think you're seriously overstating how much recharge slows have changed. They're effective enough where people still occasionally run things like colds to mess with people in team matches.

[Gibson99]

4 minutes ago, macskull said:

I think you're seriously overstating how much recharge slows have changed. They're effective enough where people still occasionally run things like colds to mess with people in team matches.

You said today's -recharge was very painful. It's not.

Yesterday's -recharge was very painful. Toons were rendered powerless until the debuffs wore off. (unless they were ice armor)

 

[Bionic_Flea]

How painful is very?

 

[barrier]

6 hours ago, Gibson99 said:

You said today's -recharge was very painful. It's not.

Yesterday's -recharge was very painful. Toons were rendered powerless until the debuffs wore off. (unless they were ice armor)

 

Dare you to solo emp in a kickball with a cold on the other team?

 

It's terrible enough that I've stopped playing debuffers in kickballs partly because they drive people off of emping.

Edited February 2, 2020 by barrier

[siolfir]

10 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

This is a logically inconsistent position to hold because the second point flows inexorably from the first. 
 

A position that's impossible to hold while claiming to agree with my first point.  (Which is that you have to do something to try and attract new players.  "More of the same, only better" is the antithesis of this.)  Basically, you're just trying to springboard off of what I said into a rant about I13.

Folks, I13 was a long time ago.  It happened, and that can't be changed.  It's not going to be reverted.  The current dev team isn't responsible for it.  Let it rest already.  You're never going to fix or improve PvP in the future if you can't let go of the past.

It's only logically inconsistent if you think that the only way to attract new players is upheaval. It's not. Having an enjoyable product that has a low cost of entry and high replayability will get new people involved through word of mouth. Holding events has already worked to bring in more people:

On 1/31/2020 at 7:43 PM, barrier said:

It's also worth noting that I don't think we've had more people actively PVPing since i13 than right now

 

And to address the highlighted portion of the first quote: yes, i13 was a long time ago but you're saying that the only way to attract new players is to do the same thing all over again and not learn from the mistakes of the past. That's just incredibly stupid unless your goal is to run off anyone who PvPs here and get rid of it entirely. You'll also note that I didn't bring up reverting i13, you did. I understand that it's a lot of work to undo, and I'm not blaming the current development team for any of it. But if we're talking about reducing the cost of entry, having your character behave more like they do in PvE would probably cause fewer people to run off when they do give PvP a try and realize that they have to make an entirely separate build for all but a few cases. That doesn't even require a full reversion, but it's going to be the largest part of one.

Edited February 2, 2020 by siolfir
wording indicating separation of the second paragraph and barrier's quote

[Gibson99]

1 hour ago, barrier said:

Dare you to solo emp in a kickball with a cold on the other team?

 

It's terrible enough that I've stopped playing debuffers in kickballs partly because they drive people off of emping.

I understand that in blaster fest world, losing a second or two from button mashing may feel like the end of the world, but it's not.

The point is that today's top tier -recharge doesn't have the same power it once had.

[Troo]

What would happen if pvp was the same as pve?

 

Is that the barrier to entry, someone has to learn the game twice?

[barrier]

44 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

I understand that in blaster fest world, losing a second or two from button mashing may feel like the end of the world, but it's not.

The point is that today's top tier -recharge doesn't have the same power it once had.

Read my comment again. Don't rush.

[barrier]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

And yes, i13 was a long time ago but you're saying that the only way to attract new players is to do the same thing all over again and not learn from the mistakes of the past. That's just incredibly stupid unless your goal is to run off anyone who PvPs here and get rid of it entirely. You'll also note that I didn't bring up reverting i13, you did. I understand that it's a lot of work to undo, and I'm not blaming the current development team for any of it. But if we're talking about reducing the cost of entry, having your character behave more like they do in PvE would probably cause fewer people to run off when they do give PvP a try and realize that they have to make an entirely separate build for all but a few cases. That doesn't even require a full reversion, but it's going to be the largest part of one.

Nobody is talking about reversion. 

 

I am talking about listening to the wrong people again.

[barrier]

42 minutes ago, Troo said:

What would happen if pvp was the same as pve?

 

Is that the barrier to entry, someone has to learn the game twice?

If the mez system was the same you'd stand no hope at being held for mag 40+ on a blaster or dom only spike for the pve duration (way more than 4s).

 

You tell me if you think that is fine.

[siolfir]

6 minutes ago, barrier said:

Nobody is talking about reversion. 

 

I am talking about listening to the wrong people again.

I wasn't actually referring to you; the quote from you that I added was in support of my points against the first quote, which I was responding to.

 

Sorry if it came across that way. I went back to edit the post to indicate the part that it was supposed to respond to.

Edited February 2, 2020 by siolfir

[Troo]

1 hour ago, barrier said:

If the mez system was the same you'd stand no hope at being held for mag 40+ on a blaster or dom only spike for the pve duration (way more than 4s).

I'm having a little trouble understanding this.

Are you suggesting players would face mag 40+ holds? And that Blasters and Doms would not have access to damage?

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

I'm having a little trouble understanding this.

Are you suggesting players would face mag 40+ holds? And that Blasters and Doms would not have access to damage?

It was not entirely uncommon on the redside ladder at least for people to see holds stacked as high as mag 40 on a single target in an attempt to drop their toggles for a quick kill which meant that team's therms were busy stacking Thaw on that target to keep them from getting mezzed. That kind of thing didn't happen heroside because the most common blast sets (fire before I12, psi after I12) didn't have any real mez to stack but if you brought back PvE mez rules against, say, a team full of beam Blasters/Corruptors/Defenders you'd be able to easily punch through one CM and probably even two with the amount of mez powers that make up a standard attack chain. It might not be mag 40 but it's certainly not something you'd be able to just shrug off either.

 

The mez changes were one of the most contentious I13 changes - the old mez system wasn't great but the new one is arguably worse. There's probably a medium to be had there.

Edited February 2, 2020 by macskull
More info

[Troo]

Thanks. The other post was just word jumble to me. Now with players on both sides able to face all ATs it would be even. (though not ideal)

Edited February 2, 2020 by Troo

[GM Miss]

Topic is now locked - suggestions will be posted on the thread pinned in suggestions and feedback. Thanks everyone!