Make the origin power pools a separate pick (like Patron/Ancillary)

[Blackfeather]

With Force of Will and Sorcery released, I imagine that the Natural/Science/Technology power pools will eventually become a thing in due time. However, with only four power pools, it can be quite difficult fitting them in, even if it's only for a more thematic travel power - this is the main reason I thought of this.

 

As such, I think it'd make sense to have these power pools as their own separate selection - you'd only be able choose from one, just like the Ancillary/Patron power pools, leaving the other four pools available for other things.

 

This would leave characters with the ability to have six different power pools in total:

• The four "regular" ones that cover all the other pools
• An "origin" power pool
• An "ancillary/patron" power pool

Thoughts? Feedback? Would love to hear opinions on this!

Edited February 2, 2020 by Blackfeather
Cleared up title.

[siolfir]

If the origin pools are supposed to be mutually exclusive, then it makes sense to me to group them that way. Power creep would be minimal since you're still limited in the number of total powers you're taking, each pool has prerequisites to get to the higher tier powers, and the primary and secondary powers are supposed to be either stronger or more efficient.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

From some things I recall from talk about these origin pools back on live was that they wouldof been pay for access/subscriber only, and also inherents tied to a characters origin. Now obvious the way HC has released them piecemeal style and let us pick them changes both these things fundamentally. The question is then would we rather have the powers free as inherents but tied to origin, Or as is with flexability but costs us power picks and slots.

 

Personally Im also all for the old 4 pool limits being removed completely if possible.

 

Now they could if possible of course tie access and the inherent pool granting to whichever of the origin attack powers you use, so if you do want to change the inherent you could just revoke and swap at P2W.

[Blackfeather]

4 hours ago, siolfir said:

If the origin pools are supposed to be mutually exclusive, then it makes sense to me to group them that way. Power creep would be minimal since you're still limited in the number of total powers you're taking, each pool has prerequisites to get to the higher tier powers, and the primary and secondary powers are supposed to be either stronger or more efficient.

That's why I figured it'd make sense for them to be in a separate pool group, yeah. At the moment, either Sorcery or Force of Will can be taken, but not both - it already functions like the Ancillary/Epic pool in that way.

 

...darnit, I want Mystic Flight without having to spend an entire power pool choice!

[VileTerror]

This is a very reasonable suggestion.  I think the feasibility of it should be examined.  Does anyone have any insight in to how that portion of the code works?

[biostem]

What is the intent behind this proposal?  Is it overpowering to be able to take sorcery and force of will?  I can't imagine it's anywhere near as game-changing as being able to take speed & fighting, for instance.  If it's just for thematic reasons, then why not just limit yourself instead of limiting everyone else?  Also, I thought Force of Will was the natural-origin pool...

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

What is the intent behind this proposal?  Is it overpowering to be able to take sorcery and force of will?  I can't imagine it's anywhere near as game-changing as being able to take speed & fighting, for instance.  If it's just for thematic reasons, then why not just limit yourself instead of limiting everyone else?  Also, I thought Force of Will was the natural-origin pool...

Utility Belt is the Natural-origin pool. At the moment, Sorcery and Force of Will are already mutually exclusive. So this is basically the logical extension of this - make them a separate, mutually exclusive group. If anything, it opens up more options for people - they'll effectively have access to 6 power pools per character (4 regular, 1 origin, 1 ancillary).

 

And as for intent? Well I already said it: I want Mystic Flight without having to spend a whole power pool slot. But I'm sure there's plenty of other reasons why this might be nice to have.

[biostem]

Just now, Blackfeather said:

Utility Belt is the Natural-origin pool. At the moment, Sorcery and Force of Will are already mutually exclusive. So this is basically the logical extension of this - make them a separate, mutually exclusive group. If anything, it opens up more options for people - they'll effectively have access to 6 power pools per character (4 regular, 1 origin, 1 ancillary).

 

And as for intent? Well I already said it: I want Mystic Flight without having to spend a whole power pool slot. But I'm sure there's plenty of other reasons why this might be nice to have.

Oh?  I hadn't noticed.  You can't take sorcery and force of will?  Interesting.  But you're still, in essence, arguing to be able to take 5 power pools, only 1 of them must be an origin pool...

[Blackfeather]

Just now, biostem said:

Oh?  I hadn't noticed.  You can't take sorcery and force of will?  Interesting.  But you're still, in essence, arguing to be able to take 5 power pools, only 1 of them must be an origin pool...

Yup! Give it a shot - you can't take both, only one or the other.

 

And I disagree; giving an additional power pool for players is wildly different than just grouping the origin power pools into a single group. From what I've seen of the origin powers, they're mostly for theme in comparison to the other, more utility driven power pools. A few attacks here and there, a buff with an extremely long cooldown that requires the selection of two other powers, etc.

[Leogunner]

The concept was that those origin power pools were "purchased power pools" and likely had some element of pay-2-win in them as they were kind of better than the "Free power pools".  To keep the pay-2-win in check, only 1 "purchased power pool" could exist in a build as, eventually, there would be 5 purchased pools that may push aside the utility of the other pools.

 

If all you're saying is not to count an origin pool as a regular pool, you're still adding a pool if you want to keep 4 regular pools and 1 epic pool as the limit is 5.  I'm not sure how I feel about this.

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Yup! Give it a shot - you can't take both, only one or the other.

 

And I disagree; giving an additional power pool for players is wildly different than just grouping the origin power pools into a single group. From what I've seen of the origin powers, they're mostly for theme in comparison to the other, more utility driven power pools. A few attacks here and there, a buff with an extremely long cooldown that requires the selection of two other powers, etc.

Except that presence has that last part.  Speed has that.  Even leadership's 5th power can be classified as a "buff with an extremely long cool down".  Frankly, it should be the other way around;  If I want powers from force of will and sorcery, I should be able to take them - at the cost of 2 power pool picks...

Edited February 3, 2020 by biostem

[Blackfeather]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

Except that presence has that last part.  Speed has that.  Even leadership's 5th power can be classified as a "buff with an extremely long cool down".  Frankly, it should be the other way around;  If I want powers from force of will and sorcery, I should be able to take them - at the cost of 2 power pool picks...

I take it you're not fond of the idea of having the Origin Power Pools as being another pool selectable from the other 4? How come?

[Captain Powerhouse]

Quote

From some things I recall from talk about these origin pools back on live was that they wouldof been pay for access/subscriber only, and also inherents tied to a characters origin.

 

This was never the case. The powers were originally designed as Pools, and they were also originally designed to be exclusive from each other.

 

Edit to clarify: at some point there been rumors of the sets being locked to your origin, but there is nothing in the implementation to hint at this ever making it past the on-paper design.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

I take it you're not fond of the idea of having the Origin Power Pools as being another pool selectable from the other 4? How come?

They *are* "another pool selectable from the other 4".  I just don't think that you should be able to have 5 total power pools to pick from.  Taking any power should come with an opportunity cost - and allowing even more selections just lessens that.  Why should I be able to take speed, fighting, leadership, leaping and sorcery, but not sorcery & force of will?

Edited February 3, 2020 by biostem

[_NOPE_]

2 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

 

 

This was never the case. The powers were originally designed as Pools, and they were also originally designed to be exclusive from each other.

[Blackfeather]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

They *are* "another pool selectable from the other 4".  I just don't think that you should be able to have 5 total power pools to pick from.  Taking any power should come with an opportunity cost - and allowing even more selections just lessens that.  Why should I be able to take speed, fighting, leadership, leaping and sorcery, but not sorcery & force of will?

Well, I've already stated my main reason for having the origin power pools as their own separate thing - I want to have a fun travel power without having to worry about having to sacrifice an entire power pool for it.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Blackfeather

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Well, I've already stated my main reason for having the origin power pools as their own separate thing - I want to have a fun travel power without having to worry about having to sacrifice an entire power pool for it.

Right, so you are unwilling to pay the opportunity cost for that power pick.  Perhaps, if you aren't willing to make that choice, than said power isn't really that important for you.  Why should you get 5 power pools but not someone else, simply because your 5th one happens to be an origin one?  Seems like a pretty flimsy reason...

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Right, so you are unwilling to pay the opportunity cost for that power pick.  Perhaps, if you aren't willing to make that choice, than said power isn't really that important for you.  Why should you get 5 power pools but not someone else, simply because your 5th one happens to be an origin one?  Seems like a pretty flimsy reason...

Because it would be more fun of course.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Because it would be more fun of course.

So restricting other choices is fine, so long as those you find fun aren't.  Seems legit!

[Blackfeather]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

So restricting other choices is fine, so long as those you find fun aren't.  Seems legit!

How is this proposal restricting other choices? Please don't try to put words in my mouth, it's not very nice.

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

How is this proposal restricting other choices? Please don't try to put words in my mouth, it's not very nice.

I want to take 5 power pools, too, only I want the 5th one to not be an origin one - I can't do this with your suggestion.  I want to take 2 origin pools, but I can't under your proposal.  Both are restrictions to other peoples' choices.

Edited February 3, 2020 by biostem

[_NOPE_]

I think he's saying it's not "fair" to those that would rather have a fifth power pool that WASN'T an origin-based power pool. That those that pick an origin-based power pool would get "one extra" compared to those that don't.

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

I want to take 5 power pools, too, only I want the 5th one to not be an origin one - I can't do this with your suggestion.  I want to take 2 origin polls, but I can't under your proposal.  Both are restrictions to other peoples' choices.

 

26 minutes ago, biostem said:

I just don't think that you should be able to have 5 total power pools to pick from.

Hmm. Either way, I think it'd be best if you put this in a different suggestion thread in that case; these are different things, and your reasoning for five pools would be better in a different thread. And you already can't take two origin pools - as PH said:

28 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

This was never the case. The powers were originally designed as Pools, and they were also originally designed to be exclusive from each other.

 

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Blackfeather said:

Hmm. Either way, I think it'd be best if you put this in a different suggestion thread in that case; these are different things, and your reasoning for five pools would be better in a different thread. And you already can't take two origin pools - as PH said:

Regardless, you still haven't given a good reason why origin power pools shouldn't count towards your 4-pool limit.

[Blackfeather]

Just now, biostem said:

Regardless, you still haven't given a good reason why origin power pools shouldn't count towards your 4-pool limit.

I've already stated why - I want a fun travel power that doesn't need dipping into the other 4 pools. Whether or not that's a "good" reason is up to the reader.