Neiska Posted February 23, 2020 Posted February 23, 2020 Hi forums, Had a question, specifically about tankerminding. From what I've read its robots/traps or /time that are the best at it, but can other sets do it too? I am hoping to be able to do it with Demons, maybe Demons/Thermal, but not sure if it will all pan out in the end. Thanks in advance!
Redlynne Posted February 23, 2020 Posted February 23, 2020 The more Defense and Resistance you can stack on your Mastermind, the better your Tankerminding will be. That's because incoming damage gets "filtered" through your Mastermind's Defenses and Resistances BEFORE it gets shared out to your Pets as unresistable damage to them. How that would be useful for a Tankermind is left as a take home exercise for the disinterested ... 2 Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
TheSpiritFox Posted February 23, 2020 Posted February 23, 2020 I keep saying this but tankerminding is actually pretty sub par mm play. It is very overall difficult to actually keep aggro on yourslf vs your pets with the amount of damage they can do, even spamming provoke, you can usually not hold all the aggro and attempting to do so hurts your ability to have a secondary rotation. Traps is probably the overall best for it because it's one of the few secondaries with baked in mez protection, but it's lack of a solid heal means that you need aid pool and would be better off using aid other than aid self (aid other can be made uninterruptable, aid self cannot) Let your pets tank. If you are using bots, thugs, demons, or necro? Let the pets tank for you and build around that. Use bodyguard to take the alpha. Or to let you tank through pulling a boss's aggro or something using personal attacks. But overall? Especially with like a /time build that can softcap your pets? Let the pets take the damage and keep them alive through it, throw out buffs and debuffs. It's a much more fun and effective playstyle than trying to tank everything yourself.
nzer Posted February 23, 2020 Posted February 23, 2020 I don't know why people think tankermind is a thing, honestly. None of the secondaries that actually make the mastermind durable can hold aggro worth a damn, and provoke alone isn't enough.
Dr Causality Posted February 23, 2020 Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said: Use bodyguard to take the alpha. Or to let you tank through pulling a boss's aggro or something using personal attacks. Maybe it's just semantics, but on my take what you're describing here is Tankerminding. You don't have to keep spamming Provoke or stay in Bodyguard mode permanently. And the problem with letting pets tank is even at defense cap they will get hit 5% of the time, and especially T1's routinely get one-shotted. So keeping the attacks directed at your MM means fewer henchmen or pet deaths. But sure it's probably more efficient to treat them as expendable and just let 'em die here and there, so you can focus on attacks and debuffs. [Acceptable Losses] 1 hour ago, nzer said: I don't know why people think tankermind is a thing, honestly. None of the secondaries that actually make the mastermind durable can hold aggro worth a damn, and provoke alone isn't enough. Tankermind is definitely a thing for solo play. You can do a pretty good job of holding aggro from your pets and you can certainly make sure your MM takes the Alpha. It's on teams where it's a not a thing. A MM will never be able to fully fill Tank/Brute role on Teams, because Tanks, Brutes, Scappers, Blasters etc will all be able to pull more aggro. *Edit* I wanted to ask you two do slot Provoke for Taunt, right? It's dismal 8s duration out of the box, which means its not even perma unless you have global recharge. If it's part of your core strategy, then it always needs some Taunt Enhancement slotting to be effective. But also if you don't have a sizeable amount of +Tohit or Acc bonuses, then it will also need some accuracy slotting. Single slotted Provoke is still useful, but you'll need to lower expectations accordingly.... The biggest challenge I think MM's have is that when in Defensive mode pets stop attacking targets they were already fighting if the enemies get mezzed or stop attacking the MM and pets. Commanding the pets to attack takes you out of Bodyguard mode, and out of BG mode MM's can be one-shotted by AV's due to the MM's low HP pool. This is particularly an annoyance on teams, where pets will frequently just stand around if left in BG mode since teammates have all the aggro, but if you're out of BG mode then you're vulnerable to the RNG timing of a couple big attacks. The compromise on teams is to leave one or two pets in BG mode and just attack with the rest. But I definitely wish pets in Defensive mode would continue to attack anything they were already fighting and would also attack anything that attacked not just the MM but also the MM's teammates. Edited February 23, 2020 by Dr Causality
TheSpiritFox Posted February 23, 2020 Posted February 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Dr Causality said: Maybe it's just semantics, but on my take what you're describing here is Tankerminding. You don't have to keep spamming Provoke or stay in Bodyguard mode permanently. And the problem with letting pets tank is even at defense cap they will get hit 5% of the time, and especially T1's routinely get one-shotted. So keeping the attacks directed at your MM means fewer henchmen or pet deaths. But sure it's probably more efficient to treat them as expendable and just let 'em die here and there, so you can focus on attacks and debuffs. [Acceptable Losses] Tankermind is definitely a thing for solo play. You can do a pretty good job of holding aggro from your pets and you can certainly make sure your MM takes the Alpha. It's on teams where it's a not a thing. A MM will never be able to fully fill Tank/Brute role on Teams, because Tanks, Brutes, Scappers, Blasters etc will all be able to pull more aggro. *Edit* I wanted to ask you two do slot Provoke for Taunt, right? It's dismal 8s duration out of the box, which means its not even perma unless you have global recharge. If it's part of your core strategy, then it always needs some Taunt Enhancement slotting to be effective. But also if you don't have a sizeable amount of +Tohit or Acc bonuses, then it will also need some accuracy slotting. Single slotted Provoke is still useful, but you'll need to lower expectations accordingly.... The biggest challenge I think MM's have is that when in Defensive mode pets stop attacking targets they were already fighting if the enemies get mezzed or stop attacking the MM and pets. Commanding the pets to attack takes you out of Bodyguard mode, and out of BG mode MM's can be one-shotted by AV's due to the MM's low HP pool. This is particularly an annoyance on teams, where pets will frequently just stand around if left in BG mode since teammates have all the aggro, but if you're out of BG mode then you're vulnerable to the RNG timing of a couple big attacks. The compromise on teams is to leave one or two pets in BG mode and just attack with the rest. But I definitely wish pets in Defensive mode would continue to attack anything they were already fighting and would also attack anything that attacked not just the MM but also the MM's teammates. Maybe necro, ninjas, and mercs get one shotted. Bots rarely do, especially with the assault bot holding most of the aggro, and thugs and demons are more durable than bots with the space to slot the pet uniques. The one exception is the arsonist, who can pull enough alpha aggro to get two or three shotted pretty easily. But overall softcapped pets plus resistance uniques plus a good secondary makes pet tanking way better than MM tanking on the whole. My three main masterminds are built around pet tanking and they all do it really well, though admittedly the bots/traps is a bit more slot starved than the other two because repair is garbage and bots do not have a mule power for pet uniques.
Dr Causality Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 7 hours ago, Neiska said: Hi forums, Had a question, specifically about tankerminding. From what I've read its robots/traps or /time that are the best at it, but can other sets do it too? I am hoping to be able to do it with Demons, maybe Demons/Thermal, but not sure if it will all pan out in the end. Thanks in advance! Having hijacked your post over into a general discussion of Tankerminding, it's only fair that we actually answer your questions. Theory It might take a bit to explain the what and why of my take on the top combos. Tankerminding at it's core is strategy for dealing with incoming damage. It's a damage redistribution system that helps spread out large amounts of damage that your MM or pets on their own would not be able to survive. Anything that lessens the damage that gets redistributed or increases the amount of damage you're capable of redistributing will make for a more efficient effective Tankermind build or system. So like Redlynne mentioned Def and Res are essential on Tankermind builds, as they filter or lessen the damage that's redistributed across your MM and pets. It's also worth mentioning the somewhat newer Absorb mechanic that /Nature has alongside Def and Res. And additionally any -Dmg debuffs, mezzes, Knockback or Knockdowns, to a lesser extent -Tohit etc. will figure in to effective Tankermind Strategies. But for me the important thing still left out, is capacity over time, or the amount of sustained damage that can be redistributed. Sum: Overall capacity to take sustained damage over time on my take is the big picture that separates and ranks top tankermind combos. Once you've already gotten your combo of Def, Res, Absorb, Debuffs, the way to further magnify and shore up your Tankermind's overall capacity to sustain damage over time is with AOE heals and large amounts of Regen. AOE heals are relatively small amounts per target. Taking your /Thermal 2ndary as an example, Warmth fully enhanced at lvl 50 will max out at around 180HP heal per target, which is not much. But considered as a whole it's healing up to 6 pets and your mastermind, for a total of 1260HP (7 x 180HP/each...) The beauty of BG mode is it redistributes damage to your pets, so having Thermal's heal in BG mode means your MM has a capacity to sustain 1260HP of damage every time Warmth is recharged. Single targets heals do not offer the same benefit to Tankerminds Given this: On my take all the top Tankermind combos will have an AOE heal or large aoe Regen, but notably with Incarnate you can now get a large aoe Regen power with Destiny Rebirth. Next up is Def and Res options. Unlike Def, Resistance doesn't have a softcap, meaning you keep benefiting from more Resistance all way up unitl you hit hard cap which 75% for MM and 90% for pets. MM's get access to very large Resistance Shields once they are high enough level for Epic Power pools. Fully slotted the Resistance shields deliver in range of 40 to 47 Resistance to Smash/Lethal and with Mu even Energy. That's more than half-way to hard cap. Whereas the Epic Def Shields top out around 21% Def which is not even halfway to just softcap defense. But more importantly, it's basically impossible for a MM get to an always on 75% hard cap resistance without using the Epic shields. (Barrier, Rune of Protection etc. will all have down time.) But you can get to the lower threshhold of 45% soft cap defense without relying on an Epic Shield. So you'll typically be able to get to a higher overall sustain combo of Def and Resistance by choosing Resistance based Epic Pools. Additionally, there are the builds that plan to fill Def or Res with Inspirations. For PVE content you only need to get to 45% softcap def to get the max benefit whereas, you need to get to full hard cap Resistance of 75%. And cruelly Def and Res Insp are the same value even though you need to go more than 1/3 higher on your Resitance value. So it's much easier to fill in for missing Defense. Putting that all together: the best Tankermind combos will typically have Resistance Epic shields, making 2ndaries that give Def buffs the optimal pairing. The final bits are the ability for your MM to hold aggro and survive being mezzed. When your MM is in BG mode, at soft cap def and hard cap S/L resistance being mezzed is surprisingly not much of threat. You don't take much damage, and while your mezzed your pets will keep fighting pulling the aggro to them, which tends to prevent you from being indefinitely chain mezzed. But what you need to worry about is being mezzed drops toggles like Epic shields which can mean your def and resistance drop. You also can't melt away damage with heals, so being mezzed also drops your capacity to take sustained damage. Malta robots are prime example of how badly this can go for a MM. The hold drops a Epic Shield causing you take much more damage, which also happens to be an aoe, effectively hitting your pets twice, since they take the aoe damage once directly and a 2nd time when it's redistributed from you. When the pets die your capacity diminishes further you can be dead almost before you even know what happened. (Only three 2ndary sets offer the MM themselves mezz protection, beyond that your options are: Sorcery's Rune of Protection or Clarion Incnarate both of which are not up permenantly and Break Free Insp's) In sum: Tankerminds need to know how being mezzed impacts their Def and Resistance, and have a strategy for dealing with whatever that increase damage risk is. No combo is going to check all the boxes, so you'll inevitably end up needing plans to fill your gaps. But of all the 2ndaries /Time, especially once you hit later levels, checks the most of the boxes and checks them most completely. /Time has a Def based buff letting you choose the more the powerfull Resistance based Epics: Check. Has an two aoe heals: Check. /Time's Def buff is click based so doesn't get detoggled when mezzed: Partial Check. Once your 50 with Incarnate Clarion gives mezz protection and powerboosts your Def: Check. Has some other mitigation and debuff powers, plug good opportunities for procs to turn a couple powers into respectable dmg attacks. In sum the absolute top Tankermind combos will probably have a /Time 2ndary. But as for the specific combo it probably depends on your desired playstyle, stay at range, melee, more attack attacks, mostly debuff/ support etc. My personal preference is probably Thugs/Time. But if I had to choose an overall best it would be probably be Demons/Time. Demons adds a resistance buff, an aoe heal and stacks surprisingly large amounts of -Res increasing your overall dmg. But if you wanted to stay entirely at range, then best would probably be Bots/Time. But other non /Time combos can also be very strong. It's difficult to pick the exact combos since as mentioned before desired playstyle is important. So I'll just list notable 2ndaries for Tankerminds that aren't /Time: /Nature - The Aborb, massive amounts heals/regen, and resistance shield make for sturdy pets. The Absorb plus reistance means T1 pets are not as prone to being one shotted, and more pets alive means more sources to spread out and heal away the damage your MM takes. /Nature's struggle is filling the Defense. /Traps - Def and mezz protection. Good -Regen and debuffs. Has Triage Beacon Regen for some aoe hitpoint sustain. Slotting the ATO Mark of Supremacy IO for it's +Regen buff to pets makes this into a much better Tankermind set, as does adding Destiny Rebirth once Incarnates are available. /ForceField - Slightly more Def /Traps and also has mezz protection. But no heal and doesn't even have /Trap's Triage Beacon Regen trickle. Definitely needs the Mark of Surpremacy ATO and will be much stronger for Tankerminding once you get Incarnates. One great thing about /FF is you can skip many of the powers making it into a very flexible set that can choose a ton of Power Pools and Epics. /Dark - Biggest aoe heal a MM can get, plus a healing pet, so it has a sizable sustained capacity to take damage. Has some Def and some Resistance. Good debuffs including a -Dmg toggle, stacking -Tohit, a -Res , and even strong -Regen for AV's when you use Howling Twighlight as a debuff. A very balanced all around powerful versatile set. One notable thing about /Dark is it's strong at early levels. Whereas for instance /Time will be relatively weak. /Dark might be the best low level Exemplar for Tankerminds. Borderline Tankermind 2ndarys. /Pain - Overall probably not as strong as sets listed below. But for Tankerminding in particular it's checks the main boxes except Def. Aoe +Res shield. Aoe heal and an additional aoe +Regen aura toggle. Plus two single target heals and a large single target +Regen and Dmg buff. This set can keep Lore Pets alive, and they do more damage than MM pets. Strong but not best for Tankerminds: Some other sets are very powerful but because they don't buff the MM directly are not optimal for Tankerminding: /Thermal - The shields only buff the pets not your MM. Does have an aoe heal. Great Res shields for pets, that are only exceeded by Sonic and great debuffs. /Cold - The Ice shields only buff the pets not your MM. No heal. But strong Defense for henchment/pets. Exceptional single target debuffs. And does have some Def and Resistance for your MM too. /Storm - Only has a single target heal, that can't be used on your MM. Like /Cold it does have some Def and Resistance for your MM. Has great -Res, Knockback or Knockdown mitigation, a -tohit, plus a rare -Range debuff from Hurricane. /Storm is capable of doing massive amounts of damage from the Lightning and Tornado summons, which is further magnified with high recharge so you can simultaneously summon them. /Sonic - Combined with pet IO's can get pets up to 83.5% Res, meaning pets with inherent resistance will be over hard cap. Has Mezz protection like /Traps and /FF and one Resistance Shield that buff the MM. Has significant -Res debuffs. Like /FF definitely needs the Mark of Surpremacy ATO for +Regen from pets. No Deff buffs or heals. So that's what you need to fill in from Pools and Incarnate. This tome I already wrote is all I have in me for now. I may come back and edit this to fill in and include some actual Tankermind combos that I'd rate highly for different Tankermind playstyles. But at least for now this is it.... 1 1
BGSacho Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 You mentioned Demons/Thermal, but I don't think Thermal is great for tankerminding, since the Thermal shields only affect the pets. Demons/Dark, however, is IMO amazing at, and probably the best for tankerminding(except maybe Thugs/Dark). Here's why: - The demons are reasonably tanky on their own, so they can survive stray shots - Demons has two great attacks(lash, crack whip) that you would already want to use anyway, and they help a lot with keeping aggro. - One of the problems with MM tanking is that you can't reasonably hold AoE threat. This isn't as much of a problem with /Dark, as you can AoE debuff all the mooks to oblivion and ignore them - focus on the lts and bosses and keep aggro on them, Fearsome Stare and Darkest Night(+ your Dark Servant) will keep everyone else useless. - The pets most likely to steal aggro from you - the hellfire gargoyle and demon prince - are also your tankiest - You have an AoE heal so you'll never realistically die to pressure - your main worry is instagibs and mezzes - Speaking of instagibs, they practically don't exist for a well-prepared /Dark, since you can apply -90% damage. - The demon prince(and cold demonling) add -recharge, one of the few debuff types /Dark lacks. The core idea is to spam your aoe debuffs and heals, identify the actual threats among the enemies and focus your Lash/Provokes on them.
Dr Causality Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said: Maybe necro, ninjas, and mercs get one shotted. Let us not speak of Ninjas right now. I've been running some solo +2/+8 ITFs with Ninjas and I'm thinking of renaming my character to "The Expendables." Or "Infinite Ninja", with a battle cry like, "Go ahead kill them. I'll just make more and eventually you'll grow too weak to fight back." Quote Bots rarely do, especially with the assault bot holding most of the aggro, and thugs and demons are more durable than bots with the space to slot the pet uniques. The one exception is the arsonist, who can pull enough alpha aggro to get two or three shotted pretty easily. I'm probably exaggerating with one-shot. It's more often an unfortunate quick succession of 2 or 3 hits in row, often involving a big aoe. But it's definitely a dead before I can get a heal off situation. The combination of the +Res pet uniques and Incarnate level shifting makes an undeniably huge difference. So "pet instant death syndrome" is most notable while leveling before you have the level shift and Superior version of the Mark of Supremacy. But a bit of the old maths can resolve this for us, but I'm fuzzy on same game mechanic details so someone may have to offer some corrections here but this should give us some ballpark idea: 575HP --- At lvl 50 T1 pets will have 574.95HP, for simplicity let's round to 575HP At least 1.55x Damage multiplier against +4 enemies --- T1 pets con 2 levels below your MM. So even after the level shift they will con -5 below +4 enemies. Someone may need come along an correct me on the details here. Working mostly from memory after the purple patch there's a relative level scaling that impacts damage done. I'm not clear how or if Rank further impacts the relative level dmg scaling. But a Boss or AV should CON at least +5 levels above your T1 pets, give them at least a 1.55x damage multiplier. It's 1.66x if you're not level shifted and could be even higher if Rank equates to additional relative level scaling differences. 35% Res from IO's--- At level 50 with the 2x +10% Resistance and Superior ATO for +15% you have 35% Resistance to all dmg types. Demons have the most Resistance to the broadest range of dmg types, but even they have types with 0% Res like Psi. Bots have 0% to Smash etc. 1.0075 Dmg scaling after Res --- 1.55Dmg * (1-0.35Res)=1.0075 Dmg taken by T1 if it's an unresisted dmg type So for a worst case scenario of getting hit with an unresisted dmg type from a +4 Boss or better enemy at lvl 50, it should take 575/1.0075 Dmg to one-shot a T1 pet or 571 in damage. I'm not clear on how much base damage AV's and Heroes can do, but I think plenty do more than 571 damage in single attack powers. I've definitely taken 1000+ damage hits on TF's. So it's basically just RNGesus between you and T1's being one shotted from an unlucky hit roll. Now let's look at best case scenarios for damage that is resisted. For example Bots get 25% Resistance to Lethal. Demons are probably in the best position here since they have resistance to a broad range of damage that gets an additional up to 15% more resistance stacked from the Ember demon's shield. So against resisted damage T1 Bots can take 575/0.62= 927 in Dmg. Definitely less likely to have a one-shot. And Demons with 25% Lethal, plus 15% Ember Shield and the 35% in IOs' will have a whopping 75% resistance. That means even against a +4 with the relative level dmg scaling they can survive 575/0.3875 which is whopping 1484 in Dmg to one-shot them. While I do seem to recall having taken a 2K+ hits before that would not have been base damage and would have already included damage scaling, so definitely not looking very likely for even T1 Demons to be single shotted much besides Psi dmg. And even less likely if their 2ndary further buffs their Res like /Thermal, /Nature, etc. Easy to see why people like those combos. Also, easy to see why /Sonic is underrated since with pet IOs it can stack 83.5% Res even on pets with no inherent Res like Ninjas. If /Sonic had a heal it still wouldn't be great for tankerminding, but would a top tier MM set.... Quote But overall softcapped pets plus resistance uniques plus a good secondary makes pet tanking way better than MM tanking on the whole. My three main masterminds are built around pet tanking and they all do it really well, though admittedly the bots/traps is a bit more slot starved than the other two because repair is garbage and bots do not have a mule power for pet uniques. I think this touches on the important thing about Tankerminding playstyles. Tankermind prioritizes safety and minimizing risk over doing dmg, and particularly with all the tools and damaging doing capabilities we have available now, that risk minimizing compromise is just not as efficient or necessary. Feels like that's overall point you're getting at, that Tankermind is just not optimal in terms of efficiency, for instance if you were looking at clear times, XP or Influence/min etc. Risk aversion has it's costs. Edited February 24, 2020 by Dr Causality
Xandyr Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 Why tankermind when you can softcap your pets' defenses and let them do all the work? My thugs/cold and beast/time pets are all soft capped. What you wanted to know about Bio, but never asked - Tanker - Homecoming (homecomingservers.com)
nzer Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 9 hours ago, Dr Causality said: Maybe it's just semantics, but on my take what you're describing here is Tankerminding. I don't think that's what "tankermind" has historically been used to describe, and if it is it's not a very useful term. Jumping in to take the alpha then letting your pets grab aggro naturally after that is just the proper way to play defensive secondaries like /Time or /Traps. Tankermind is a step beyond that, where you use aggro tools like provoke to actively pull mobs off your pets and onto you. 1
Dr Causality Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, nzer said: Tankermind is a step beyond that, where you use aggro tools like provoke to actively pull mobs off your pets and onto you. Being a Tankermind shouldn't mean you have to be in BG mode, spamming Provoke 100% of the time. I religiously use Provoke on most MM builds. If the pet ai was better, then it might be different. But for instance if you mezz all enemies while in BG mode, then your pets completely stop attacking, so you unless you want your DPS to drop down to useless numbers, then you have to be a little flexible about it. I'd say a more useful and functional definition of Tankerminding, is directing all threatening aggro off your pets and onto to your MM itself. But when there's not enough aggro to be threatening, then even the die hard tankerminds like myself will use 'attack my target' or 'aggressive' just for efficiency. If Tankerminding was so strict that not waiting until mezzed enemies wake up for my pets to finish them off, then I'd stay it's that definition of Tankerminding that's not useful. Or likewise if because on teams I will set some pets to 'aggressive' or 'attack my target' so they're not just standing around idle and that makes me not a true Tankermind, then I'd counter that that definition of Tankermind is only useful to describe an extremely inefficient low DPS play style you should avoid. 🙂 Quote I don't think that's what "tankermind" has historically been used to describe, and if it is it's not a very useful term. Tankerminding is new in the sense that there wasn't even always a Body Guard mode for MM's. Tankerminding came about to describe what was a new playstyle that leveraged BG mode. So I'd say historically my use is well within the definition of Tankerminding and further that it's definitely a still a useful term, because you can play styles where pets take the aggro or where just you don't even worry about who has the aggro at all. Whereas, on my Tankermind builds I try to ensure that all threatening aggro goes to my MM. Quote Jumping in to take the alpha then letting your pets grab aggro naturally after that is just the proper way to play defensive secondaries like /Time or /Traps. I think this is where it gets interesting, because as I see it SpiritFox, Xandyr and others are arguing that in fact that isn't the most efficient or necessarily proper way to play. And I think on that point they're probably right. We now have more defense, resistance and sustain then ever before and with dmg procs the MM itself also has the ability to do more damage then they could previously. Together that means pets need less support than before, and by using up time coddling or tending to pets instead of attacking, we're now giving up more DPS because the MM can now actually do significant DPS on their own now. And on that note, being freed from needing to build for Tankerminding survivability of your MM, should open up the flexibility to chase more dmg in your builds. I still prefer Tankerminding because I hate it when my pets die [and even more so when my MM dies], but that doesn't mean that even I think it's the most efficient MM playstyle for the current game. Put another way, the Tankermind style is never going to have the top Pylon or clear times. [The risk averse rarely receive the top honors....] Edited February 24, 2020 by Dr Causality
Neiska Posted February 24, 2020 Author Posted February 24, 2020 Wow! So much information, much more than I expected. So thank you everyone for that. After reading all of this, I have decided to go Demons/Time, and probially use Mace Mastery for both Scorpion Shield and the Power Boost/Time combo. Also as mentioned by others before, I don't intend on going tankermind 100% of the time, but would like to be able to if the situation calls for it, while being effective both in solo as well as team play which is my overall goal. I did have some further questions though, specifically about incarnates - Alpha slot - Does Musclature affect pet damage, or would it be better to stick with Agility/Cardiac? Interface slot - Would Reactive stack with Demons -res debuffs making them do more damage, or would it be more overall effective to use Degenerative for the -hp debuff? Destiny slot - I had assumed that Rebirth or Barrier would have been perferred, but @Dr Causality specifically pointed out Clarion's status protection and "Increased secondary effect buffs"? What is the secondary buff effect mean? Toggle powers, or somethign else? Hybrid - Zero idea what to stick here, Assualt, Melee and Support all look good. I assume it would depend if my MM and pet's defenses are capped, or if Assualt even would affect them. Without planning my build (at work right now), my initial incarnate plans are - Alpha - Agility Interface - Degenerative Destiny - Clarion Hybrid - Support (if not capped) Once again thank you everyone for your imput and advice! It is appreciated, and a special thank you to @Dr Causality for taking the time for an indepth descriptions on secondary powers. (We should make or pin a MM secondary powers guide somewhere. Theres lots of sites for what the best pets are, but not a lot about secondaries and their effects or playstyles.)
nzer Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, Neiska said: Wow! So much information, much more than I expected. So thank you everyone for that. After reading all of this, I have decided to go Demons/Time, and probially use Mace Mastery for both Scorpion Shield and the Power Boost/Time combo. Also as mentioned by others before, I don't intend on going tankermind 100% of the time, but would like to be able to if the situation calls for it, while being effective both in solo as well as team play which is my overall goal. I did have some further questions though, specifically about incarnates - Alpha slot - Does Musclature affect pet damage, or would it be better to stick with Agility/Cardiac? Interface slot - Would Reactive stack with Demons -res debuffs making them do more damage, or would it be more overall effective to use Degenerative for the -hp debuff? Destiny slot - I had assumed that Rebirth or Barrier would have been perferred, but @Dr Causality specifically pointed out Clarion's status protection and "Increased secondary effect buffs"? What is the secondary buff effect mean? Toggle powers, or somethign else? Hybrid - Zero idea what to stick here, Assualt, Melee and Support all look good. I assume it would depend if my MM and pet's defenses are capped, or if Assualt even would affect them. Without planning my build (at work right now), my initial incarnate plans are - Alpha - Agility Interface - Degenerative Destiny - Clarion Hybrid - Support (if not capped) Once again thank you everyone for your imput and advice! It is appreciated, and a special thank you to @Dr Causality for taking the time for an indepth descriptions on secondary powers. (We should make or pin a MM secondary powers guide somewhere. Theres lots of sites for what the best pets are, but not a lot about secondaries and their effects or playstyles.) Musculature does work with pets, and is generally recommended. For Interface I'd go with Degenerative, though I'm not entirely sure. -maxhp is better than -res point for point (and will stack multiplicatively with your pets' -res, while more -res would stack additively), but I don't know how the DoTs compare. Destiny I would definitely go with Clarion. The increased secondary effects is exactly the same as power boost, except I believe it also affects power boost, so Clarion->Power Boost->Farsight provides like 30% defense. That should softcap your demons, but it means you'll have to cast Farsight every two minutes exactly, so it could potentially be down for a few seconds in combat, and it means you don't get permanent mez protection, only 90 seconds out of every two minutes. Core has permanent Mez protection, which plugs the only major defensive hole /Time has. For Hybrid you basically have to go Support as the other ones don't affect the pets. 23 hours ago, Dr Causality said: I think this is where it gets interesting, because as I see it SpiritFox, Xandyr and others are arguing that in fact that isn't the most efficient or necessarily proper way to play. And I think on that point they're probably right. I mean, SpiritFox explicitly advocated for going in first to eat the alpha. And honestly, despite the power creep an MM's biggest concern is generally still keeping the pets alive through burst, so personally, I'd say jumping in to eat the alpha then letting the pets grab aggro naturally is almost always the best approach with sets like /Time or /Traps when you can actually do that. Edited February 25, 2020 by nzer
Dr Causality Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, nzer said: Musculature does work with pets, and is generally recommended. For Interface I'd go with Degenerative, though I'm not entirely sure. -maxhp is better than -res point for point (and will stack multiplicatively with your pets' -res, while more -res would stack additively), but I don't know how the DoTs compare. Destiny I would definitely go with Clarion. The increased secondary effects is exactly the same as power boost, except I believe it also affects power boost, so Clarion->Power Boost->Farsight provides like 30% defense. That should softcap your demons, but it means you'll have to cast Farsight every two minutes exactly, so it could potentially be down for a few seconds in combat, and it means you don't get permanent mez protection, only 90 seconds out of every two minutes. Core has permanent Mez protection, which plugs the only major defensive hole /Time has. For Hybrid you basically have to go Support as the other ones don't affect the pets. Agree with Nzer on these recommendations: Alpha: Musculature is the one to aim for if you can make it work with your build. It's a notable increase in Dmg since let's your pets go over the 96% ED cap where they stop gaining much for further Dmg enhancements slotting. That can easily mean a dmg increase in the near 20% from pets. Beyond that choosing an alpha that buffs either Dmg or Acc, or even Endurance Reduction will significantly help when slotting out your Pets, since it will give you more flexibility to short slot one of those letting you chase set bonuses or more easily add the pet uniques. Alpha Agility - Could be a good, if you need the +Def and you're not planning to use Dmg procs in you non-pet powers. Alpha and Spiritual are great, but the problem with them now is that with the PPM (proc per minute) chances the +Recharge enhancement buff they give now significantly diminishes your proc chances. So you need to look at your build very carefully when choosing those two Alphas to make sure that any procs you want to use will still have good chances to proc with the additonal Recharge. Interface: Yeah totally agree with Nzer. Demons will already do and give you access to lots of -Res. You should get a lot more value from the -HP. Destiny: Yeah if you're going /Time will be tough to get a better option than Clarion. Hybrid: At least some Hybrid is working on MM pets: Support works as expected. Melee only impacts your MM itself and is dependent on how many enemies are nearby. In general that means it's going to be most useful for farming builds that expect to be constantly surrounded by large mobs. For regular game play it often doesn't buff you much when you need it most, for instance when fighting a single AV. So especially on a MM you're probably much better off with Support. And support is also small a Endurance reduction, and dmg buff that applies to applies to not just to you and your pets also teammates. Hybrid Assault works, with one annoying exception: The Hybrid has to already be toggled on when the pets are first summoned, otherwise they get no benefit. If the pets were first summoned while Hybrid was up, then they should still get it next time you can toggle it back on. But if you had to summon or resummon any pets while Hybrid was down, then you'll have to dismiss and resummon them when it's toggled on for them to received Hybrid. Hybrid Assault can add a significant amount of dmg, so if you can build around Powerboosted /Time to get sufficient Def, then Hybrid Assault will probably be the way to go. For almost all cases MM's and other summon heavy sets will want to go Assault Radial for the doublehit. See this thread for more info: Edited February 25, 2020 by Dr Causality
Dr Causality Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 12 hours ago, nzer said: I mean, SpiritFox explicitly advocated for going in first to eat the alpha. And honestly, despite the power creep an MM's biggest concern is generally still keeping the pets alive through burst, so personally, I'd say jumping in to eat the alpha then letting the pets grab aggro naturally is almost always the best approach with sets like /Time or /Traps when you can actually do that. I should let SpiritFox tell us what was meant, but on my read of these quotes it's not explicit and not even clear that it's the primary or core strategy for the MM to tank the Alpha: Quote But overall softcapped pets plus resistance uniques plus a good secondary makes pet tanking way better than MM tanking on the whole. My three main masterminds are built around pet tanking and they all do it really well, though admittedly the bots/traps is a bit more slot starved than the other two because repair is garbage and bots do not have a mule power for pet uniques. and here where MM tanking the Alpha is mentioned it's still doesn't read as the primary strategy to me, and instead seems more like an option: Quote Let your pets tank. If you are using bots, thugs, demons, or necro? Let the pets tank for you and build around that. Use bodyguard to take the alpha. Or to let you tank through pulling a boss's aggro or something using personal attacks. But overall? Especially with like a /time build that can softcap your pets? Let the pets take the damage and keep them alive through it, throw out buffs and debuffs. It's a much more fun and effective playstyle than trying to tank everything yourself. I would say the playstyle difference between Spiritfox and myself appears to be: Spiritfox is saying, as a general rule pet tanking is better, but use BG mode in situations where you need--so pet tanking is the Default. Whereas, my playstyle is use Tankerminding as the default, but once it's clear there's no danger and pets dmg have stopped doing much dmg, then use aggressive or attack my target as needed. But instead of putting words in someone else's mouth, I'll should just defend the position myself. Despite my personal preference for Tankerminding, from a min/max perspective I think that if you can get pet Res (and/or Absorb) up high enough, combined with decent pet defense numbers, then Pet Tanking should significantly outperform Tankermind in overall DPS. The MM itself can now do a lot of damage, between Incarnate powers and procs. With high overall Res/Aborb pets will only rarely get one or two shotted, and won't die that often. Given that DPS wise it's more efficient for your MM to be using damaging powers, rather than Provoke spamming and then just re-summon any pets as needed. Since pets die more rarely, the DPS loss downtime between pet death and re-summing them (and eventually rebuffing them) shouldn't out weigh the DPS gain from focusing on MM dmg. On that point, not Tankerminding frees you from needing to build so much Def into your MM, letting you chase proc dmg, and damaging powers in your build. I definitely think this will be the most efficient MM strategy overall. I'm not saying, you should never use BG mode, there certainly could be situations where it would be helpful. But the game has changed and Provoke is probably not going to be found in the most efficient high DPS MM builds going forward. I'm just a dinosaur stuck in a previous playstyle, who feels like I failed when henchmen or pets die on my watch.
TheSpiritFox Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Dr Causality said: I should let SpiritFox tell us what was meant, but on my read of these quotes it's not explicit and not even clear that it's the primary or core strategy for the MM to tank the Alpha: and here where MM tanking the Alpha is mentioned it's still doesn't read as the primary strategy to me, and instead seems more like an option: I would say the playstyle difference between Spiritfox and myself appears to be: Spiritfox is saying, as a general rule pet tanking is better, but use BG mode in situations where you need--so pet tanking is the Default. Whereas, my playstyle is use Tankerminding as the default, but once it's clear there's no danger and pets dmg have stopped doing much dmg, then use aggressive or attack my target as needed. But instead of putting words in someone else's mouth, I'll should just defend the position myself. Despite my personal preference for Tankerminding, from a min/max perspective I think that if you can get pet Res (and/or Absorb) up high enough, combined with decent pet defense numbers, then Pet Tanking should significantly outperform Tankermind in overall DPS. The MM itself can now do a lot of damage, between Incarnate powers and procs. With high overall Res/Aborb pets will only rarely get one or two shotted, and won't die that often. Given that DPS wise it's more efficient for your MM to be using damaging powers, rather than Provoke spamming and then just re-summon any pets as needed. Since pets die more rarely, the DPS loss downtime between pet death and re-summing them (and eventually rebuffing them) shouldn't out weigh the DPS gain from focusing on MM dmg. On that point, not Tankerminding frees you from needing to build so much Def into your MM, letting you chase proc dmg, and damaging powers in your build. I definitely think this will be the most efficient MM strategy overall. I'm not saying, you should never use BG mode, there certainly could be situations where it would be helpful. But the game has changed and Provoke is probably not going to be found in the most efficient high DPS MM builds going forward. I'm just a dinosaur stuck in a previous playstyle, who feels like I failed when henchmen or pets die on my watch. Here's my thing. You have a preference against re-summoning. I have a preference against being mezzed. And everything I get to 50 gets a "finalized" build with purples and the whole 9 yards. But when you build for tankerminding, it is not possible to build for personal softcap, resistance, recharge, and recovery all at once. You are trying to turn your mastermind into a tanker when what they truly are is a pet wielding corruptor. Building your mm around personal defense sacrifices support for your secondary. It means that your /nature won't be in position to use cone healing and that buffs that could be perma, won't be. It means your offensive toggles will get dropped regularly. It means that you have to pick different powers which benefit your tanking only and not other things about your class. It means picking your epic around personal surviability rather than utility, damage, or CC. And yes it means sacrificing proc damage for slotting out your personal defenses. Tankerminding sacrifices the things your class is designed to do to allow it to do something it is not designed for. It sacrifices building around your secondary for max effect to avoid resummoning. I get the personal preference, but you are a corruptor with a pocket team here and that pocket team has to be actively supported. Bodyguard was originally put into the game for PVP. It was specifically created to allow you to avoid being one shot through your pets and came when masterminds in PVP complained that they were literally helpless. It certainly has benefits to like not letting AVs do it either, but tankerminding forgets that your primary roles are DPS and support, not DPS and aggro management. When you build around being a support who is not intended to tank your IO priorities change radically. Recharge and Recovery > all. Building your MM around these concepts mitigates the actual shortcomings of the class. You recover from resummons faster, your buffs start to all be permanent, you can heal as fast as you can cast with healing. You're a benefit to your pets in solo, and much more of a benefit to the team in groups. Building around provoke and an attack chain neglects your secondary far more than you might think at first glance. And your secondary is where your personal power really comes in. With a solid secondary and a build made to support your pets as "your personal team/tanks" it is far easier to adapt to changing situations. Without taking personal aggro, retreat becomes a realistic option in battles. No tankermind can solo the ITF. It just won't work, the last boss if nothing else will be a hard stop. End game content where mez is highly prevalent will be a hard stop. Removing your mastermind from the thick of battle by removing them from most of the aggro lists allows you freedom to engage your secondary, disengage from battle, resummon if something goes down, and build your mastermind with IOs to do all of those things very, very effectively. And most MM builds still have the room to take personal attacks, so you can still attack stuff, still have bodyguard, but your focus is purely on damage, sniping bosses or eliminating healers, not on keeping your pets alive by holding aggro. Final point: Bonfire How do you keep pets alive in challenging content? Stuff that is difficult to straight up tank even for the best of sets? You need crowd control. Bots do best with Mu. Mu is not what you will take if you are tankerminding. Every set that is not bots with their massive knockback and burn patch missiles sending people running benefits by FAR the most from pyre and bonfire. With just it's default slot everything from bosses on down flops and your minions take shitloads less damage, and building around recharge means bonfire can be procced out and still be up permanently without sacrificing proc rate. That's not just extra damage but a ton of incoming damage that just no longer exists. Both my thugs/time and my demons/nature took bonfire and built enough recharge into their builds that it is up before the last bonfire expires. If you're soloing, it's up every group. In teams it's up every other group in a hard steamroll, and if you're not steamrolling bonfire can be the difference between being able to carry the group and just being a solid part of it. There is no epic choice which provides the absolutely ABSURD benefit to masterminds that bonfire provides. Damage and damage mitigation in one power that needs one slot, that you can choose to three slot with two +5 recharge IOs and build for recharge and drop it's cooldown to 20 something seconds, enough that it is up every group EVEN in a steamroll. Or you can do like me and 6 slot it with procs and an endurance IO and just spam that shit when it's up helping make mincemeat of your foes. It's too good not to take for a class which needs to keep more than just your own person alive at all times team or solo. It provides too much mitigation to not be worth the power pick. Tankerminding makes taking bonfire a bad idea when you genuinely need either defense or resistance, and no other epic CC stacks up on bosses like bonfire does. All the immobs have to be double stacked on bosses. All the holds have to be double stacked on bosses unless you get a lucky hold proc. Bonfire is one power, fire and forget, and even bosses are rendered fucking helpless lol. And lets not forget that you can proc the shit out of pyre attacks to do heavy single target damage if you so desire. Edited February 26, 2020 by TheSpiritFox
Dr Causality Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 2 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said: No tankermind can solo the ITF. It just won't work, the last boss if nothing else will be a hard stop. I agree with all of your reply except that quote. The ITF is what I typically use as a proving grounds for testing builds. I've solo-ed the ITF at +2/+8 on what I consider Tankermind builds with Thugs/Time and Thugs/Nature. [But let's not talk about how long it takes me on those MM builds....] The Crystals, the Computer and last AV fight you mention are the parts of the ITF that I struggle with on MM's. But Tankerminding actually helps the last AV fight, because I have a very tough time keeping pets alive while the Nictus are still there. So being able to make pets stay at range attacking while my MM taunts, ends up being very helpful. Also, the other two biggest problems I have in that fight are Romulus trying to run away and dealing with the ambushes on top of the AV fight. Being able to Taunt pull the AV's helps with both of those two issues. On the subject of Bonfire, with the Overwhelming KD proc: it's brokenly good. For MM's the only thing that makes it feel even mildly balanced is that Fire Mastery at least has to give up an Epic shield for Bonfire. But even as someone with MM and Controller builds based around Bonfire as a core power, I think Dev's at the end of Live made a clear mistake and that Bonfire with Overwhelming should be nerfed. You shouldn't be able to get a permeable damaging power on MM's, Blasters etc that does more KD control than control powers like Earth Quake, Ice Slick etc. Definitely upsets the game's class balance. To give you an idea of how broken it is, it let me solo the ITF at +2/+8 on a Bot/Kin that I'd built to be a support character. (And no the Bot/Kin is not a Tankermind build. It and a /storm are the MM's I have that don't have Provoke. Bonfire goes particularly poorly with Tankermind builds because pets in Defensive will routinely stop attacking while enemies are bouncing like helpless fish out of water in the Bonfire.) [The other trick for the last AV fight is, if after trying you find you have trouble taking the fight head on, then reset the last mish because: Imperious is an aggro spazz, but he makes a pretty damn good MM pet against hard targets....some builds might be able to do the last fight just with him and their Lore pets. I've got it down to a science now, but keeping him alive all the way to the AV fight is chore of it's own. Imperious was enough of boost that I finished the ITF with Ninja/Storm. I plan try Ninja/TA next, which I'm not sure even an Imperious pet will be of enough of boost too handle....]
BGSacho Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 4 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said: How do you keep pets alive in challenging content? Stuff that is difficult to straight up tank even for the best of sets? You need crowd control. Bots do best with Mu. Mu is not what you will take if you are tankerminding. Every set that is not bots with their massive knockback and burn patch missiles sending people running benefits by FAR the most from pyre and bonfire. With just it's default slot everything from bosses on down flops and your minions take shitloads less damage, and building around recharge means bonfire can be procced out and still be up permanently without sacrificing proc rate. That's not just extra damage but a ton of incoming damage that just no longer exists. Huh? I don't get it. Bots/Time/Mu is probably the best combination you can get out of bots, since it gives you past-softcap def, hardcap S/L + close to cap E, heals, great to-hit and -def to free up accuracy slotting, etc, etc. Why wouldn't you take /Mu if you were tankerminding? Charged Armor is one of the best defensive powers you can get.
TheSpiritFox Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 1 hour ago, BGSacho said: Huh? I don't get it. Bots/Time/Mu is probably the best combination you can get out of bots, since it gives you past-softcap def, hardcap S/L + close to cap E, heals, great to-hit and -def to free up accuracy slotting, etc, etc. Why wouldn't you take /Mu if you were tankerminding? Charged Armor is one of the best defensive powers you can get. Because most tankermind builds need mace to reach the softcap.
Gauntlet_Prime Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 It is somewhat shocking how this thread devolved into arguing over the semantics of what you can and cannot call "tankerminding". To the original question Demons/Thermal would be able to tankermind eventually with the right set bonuses and pools but out of the box it would be harder than Time or Traps as they have the tools in the secondary to boost your survive-ability as well. I personally am leveling a psudo-tankermind that is Beast/Kin just to see how functional it is. It can level against regular or x2-3 but that is because I am absorbing the alphas and pumping pet damage super high to offset the lack of obvious def/res buffs. I can only assume something that more actively adds to survival like time or traps would be easier to do this with. Thermal however only really effects the pets similar to speed boost and density in Kin so it will suffer in the same way my build will until later levels with more set and things like scorp shield etc. On a side note beast/nature has worked well for tankerminding for me on another toon. 2
Dr Causality Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 I've never had very good luck building a sturdy Tankermind with the Epic Def shields like Mace or Ice Mastery. My sturdiest Tankerminds all use Res based Epic shields. Mu probably being the best like BGSacho is saying, but I often end up using Soul because I prefer the Cone Immob that doesn't have a -KB component. For Tankerminds: 'Epic Res shields are almost always going to be superior to Epic Def shields' because they will typically let your MM reach higher overall sustain by reaching a higher amount of combined Res and Def. I already argued this earlier in the thread as quoted below, but it's much easier for a MM to get close to soft cap defense from Non Epic sources, whereas it's pretty much impossible to get to hard capped Res without using a Res based Epic shield. Epic Res shields are the best always up source Res in the game for a MM, and it turns out it's much harder to get Res then Def for the MM themselves. Soft Cap defense is a lower goal to begin with, than hard capped Res is. But the following make the situation worse for Epic Def Shields: The MM itself has more non-Epic sources of Def, then Res available. There are many always up Def powers in the Power Pools, but only one always up Res power, Tough. But the biggest issue probably is the best Res powers like from Sonic or Thermal don't buff the MM themselves. The two pet sources of Def or Res that buff the MM are Demons and Bots are out of balance. The Def from Bots fully enhanced gets your MM almost 1/4 of the way to soft cap on it's own. Def and Res inspirations are also out of balance making it much easier to build around needing to fill missing Def from Insp, then it is missing Res. A single sm Purple is more than 1/4 to softcap Def, whereas a single sm res is only a 1/6th to hard cap. But when it comes to Epic's the Res Epic shields can get more than halfway to the higher bar of hard cap, whereas Epic Def shields don't even get halfway to the lower bar of soft cap Def. Taken together this means it's possible to reach a much higher overall amounts of sustain through Def and Resistance combined by choosing Resistance based Epic Pools. Quote Next up is Def and Res options. Unlike Def, Resistance doesn't have a softcap, meaning you keep benefiting from more Resistance all way up unitl you hit hard cap which 75% for MM and 90% for pets. MM's get access to very large Resistance Shields once they are high enough level for Epic Power pools. Fully slotted the Resistance shields deliver in range of 40 to 47 Resistance to Smash/Lethal and with Mu even Energy. That's more than half-way to hard cap. Whereas the Epic Def Shields top out around 21% Def which is not even halfway to just softcap defense. But more importantly, it's basically impossible for a MM get to an always on 75% hard cap resistance without using the Epic shields. (Barrier, Rune of Protection etc. will all have down time.) But you can get to the lower threshhold of 45% soft cap defense without relying on an Epic Shield. So you'll typically be able to get to a higher overall sustain combo of Def and Resistance by choosing Resistance based Epic Pools. Additionally, there are the builds that plan to fill Def or Res with Inspirations. For PVE content you only need to get to 45% softcap def to get the max benefit whereas, you need to get to full hard cap Resistance of 75%. And cruelly Def and Res Insp are the same value even though you need to go more than 1/3 higher on your Resitance value. So it's much easier to fill in for missing Defense. Putting that all together: the best Tankermind combos will typically have Resistance Epic shields, making 2ndaries that give Def buffs the optimal pairing.
nzer Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 3 hours ago, Dr Causality said: Epic Res shields are almost always going to be superior to Epic Def shields' because they will typically let your MM reach higher overall sustain by reaching a higher amount of combined Res and Def. Your overall point is correct, but I feel the need to point out that combined def/res totals isn't a proper point of comparison for overall sustain; 40% defense and 50% resist provides exactly the same overall damage reduction as 45% defense and no resists, but doesn't protect anywhere near as well from debuffs and mezzes. 1
Crysis Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 I think Tankerminding as a playstyle still has its uses, but these new MM changes have really given us a whole new dimension on how to position the crew for maximum damage while still remaining defensive yourself. Also, the common wisdom behind Tankerminding was to take and spam Provoke. I’ve found that totally unnecessary on a /Time MM with Times Juncture. That power, for whatever reason, seems to constantly peel aggro off of tankers. Jump into spawn with TJ running and let the henchman open up from range (this is how I did it for years on my Bots/Time MM’s, although I even used TP Self to trick the henchman AI into opening always from range...worked well). I’d take the alpha (floored -TOHIT and high native DEF meant zero damage to me) and usually the next couple of rounds of attacks while my bots chewed them up from range. I never once took any powers like Provoke...just wasn’t necessary. I’d just have to touch something with TJ aura and they’d stick to me like glue afterwards. MOB’s seem to hate TJ’s debuff enough to ignore everything else.
Neiska Posted February 27, 2020 Author Posted February 27, 2020 I am glad my question seemed to have sparked a bit of discussion! And different thoughts and methods are good, as not everyone will like playing the same way. As far as my (Semi)Tankermind, I decided to go with Demons/Time instead of Thermal, for various reasons. More defense, team support, and it just felt overall better, plus the conversation about time. So far she is only level 32, but climbing quite well even with just basic IOs. I havent gotten a final build planned yet, as I am still tweaking final slots/enchancements to get the numbers I want. I didn't take provoke though, as mentioned it really didnt feel needed. Mostly i keep my toggle aura up, my little aoe heal on auto recast, and focus on using hold on the biggest baddie in the pile, and the demons handle the rest. If it gets tough I use Farsight for some extra defense, because I dont have the Cooldown yet to make that perma. This may not be what some consider "tankerminding" per say, but it does let me share my damage quite nicely, and I dont feel squishy in the slightest. I am running +2 or 3/5 currently, with mostly normal maps or newspaper missions. No complaints yet so far, aside from still fine turning/tweaking my final build.
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