If you could change the sentinel (or not) which would you choose?(Poll/Opinions)

[Frostweaver]

30% more hit points.

That's all I want. 30% more hp.

[Zerethon]

On 5/27/2020 at 1:22 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Quite frankly, from the moment I first viewed them when the post-snap CoH was back online, I called them out for what they are: something that doesn't actually belong in this game.

 

But they are here, and I've got several of them because they are fun and they are safe and they do get the job done.

I...Disagree with this, and i'm late as always

After 50'ing 3 and quite literally making another today, they actually feel (Aside from the sucky function of opportunity to use it) Like something that's ALWAYS been here, because it makes sense in a weird way.

Most "Blaster" type characters in comics are more like sentinels anyways. Having an Elec/Elec dom, blaster and sentinel now, i can say that the Elec/Elec sent "Feels" the best overall to play.

The dom can hit like a freight train and lock down whole groups, but has a lot more "Oh ****" moments when big AOE's and things get thrown around, the blaster is the same way, can't totally lock groups down but you can still CC and slap the heck out of them.

The sentinel? I don't have the damage output, but i have the durability and built-in travel power of elec armor that can't be suppressed in combat easily. so while i can't quite instaclear a group, i can take out group after group with relative impunity between END drain and armor combined with an even more flexible build path. As useful as offense opportunity would be it's just not worth taking for how outright tanky i can get with my usual build.

Long story short, if opportunity was reworked to work like dom (Click button, place debuff, recieve bacon) since it's already built from it, sentinels would basically just be a class entirely built like crab spiders. Not really a true DPS or anything, but a tanky damage dealer with team utility and survival letting them play even more aggressive to spread the love, And by love i mean considerable damage at a moderate pace.

[Mechanisto]

Hi, everybody. My name is Mechanisto, and I'm a permanoob. I never actually got any of my characters to Lv50 back when the servers were live. I still haven't figured out Incarnate powers but it's been a really fun learning process. I never did Goldside, so exploring Praetoria felt like having brand-new official content for a game I never thought I'd see again... brutally difficult content, but tons of fun! Reading this thread has been mesmerizing, mind-boggling and fascinating. I have no idea what any of these numbers mean, so I'm just going by what feels fun and engaging to me.

 

I have one question for the more experienced players and theorycrafters out there: When you see a Sentinel's big glowy cross-hairs suddenly appear under an enemy, how does it make you feel?

 

When I'm on a team and I see a massive flare of light, I immediately think "Oh wow, somebody pissed off the Dominator! They're in for a world of hurt now!" I feel like I should experience something similar for the Sentinel, especially because it's such a big and obvious visual effect (it's absolutely massive on certain bosses, which is awesome). When I see the big glowy crosshairs, I should immediately think: "There's the weak point! Come on, everybody, strike while the iron is hot!" I'm not sure I get that feeling now that I know exactly what Opportunity does, and how Sonic powers kind of do it better (or at least easier). Honestly, I love Sentinels as a chill, relaxing way to solo. I like how they're a middle-of-the-road, play-it-safe AT. But when I'm on a team, I want to know my allies can sometimes get excited about something I did. I'd love the Sentinel to act as a sort of "second in command" for the team: Not the official leader, but a specialized tactician who... what else... finds opportunities for the whole team to exploit. What if Offensive opportunity gives allies a damage buff that slowly increases each time they hit the target, and which persists for a short time after the enemy is defeated? Or maybe it gives all attacks against that enemy a chance to crit that scales with the rank of the enemy (Minion, Lieutenant, Boss, etc), since Sentinels are sort of like Ranged Scrappers? Maybe sometimes I should have a good reason to put the Opportunity on one of the boss's minions instead of the boss itself: What if Defensive Opportunity gave a minor Heal/End recovery to any ally that attacks the targeted enemy, and low-ranked enemies give out more healing than Lieutenants and Bosses to balance the fact that they're eliminated much more quickly? What if Opportunity applies a radial debuff to nearby enemies when the victim is defeated?

 

Dunno if any of this is viable. Just daydreaming. But I kind of like the idea of giving Sentinels both a "routine minion-mopper" version of the power, as well as a "high powered boss-killer" version. They already have two versions of their resistance debuff that deals -5% and -20%. Maybe those could be fleshed out a bit? Maybe something that makes the T1 trigger good for minions, and the T2 Trigger good for bosses? I honestly don't care if my sentinel is contributing damage like a blaster is. Otherwise, I'd play a blaster. I care if my teammates are excited to see my special mechanic light up an enemy. The same way I get excited when I see a Dominator light up their mechanic.

 

That's it.

 

So what's your reaction when you see the cross-hairs? Do you get excited? Does it change how you experience the game, even just a little? Does it push you to fight harder and take advantage of a momentary opportunity? What's your reward for taking advantage of that opportunity?

 

PS: yes, this is my first post. I'm definitely in over my head.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Mechanisto

[oldskool]

57 minutes ago, Mechanisto said:

So what's your reaction when you see the cross-hairs?

Generally I don't care.  I also feel that way about several other ATs because the characters that exist within those domains aren't built to give a flip about their inherent.  Opportunity only really shines, right now, when a target is going to live long enough for it to matter.  That's generally a limited list of enemies like AVs/GMs.  When the cross hairs do go off, then I know that everyone is doing more damage.  That's nice, but... I could be happy with something else too.  

My Stalkers, Scrappers, and Brutes are all more reliant on the ATOs that bolster their inherent than the inherent themselves.  Stalkers and Scrappers get even more reliable criticals plus Stalkers get near on-demand Build-Up.  Brutes can help push their Fury building to more predictable levels, at least mine do.  

Dominators have it kinda flashy, and their builds have been very reliant on perma-dom for a long time.  So it matters a lot there.  However, I don't count on Containment with my Controller.  I don't count on Scourge on my Corrs, or Vigilance on my Defender.  Hell, I rarely build around Bodyguard on my Masterminds.  I make use of it, but it isn't something I go out of my way for either.  Then again, my MM isn't a "tankermind".  

Not all ATs are that reliant on their inherent power.  I think that's OK.  Inherents are just there working in the background for most of the ATs.  I think that's more of the core issue for a lot of folks, myself included, and given the nature of Opportunity being so different tends to rub folks the wrong way.  

You've got some interesting ideas about how Opportunity could work so keep on fighting the good fight. For me personally, I couldn't care any less about it.  

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, Mechanisto said:

I'm not sure I get that feeling now that I know exactly what Opportunity does, and how Sonic powers kind of do it better (or at least easier).

Strangely enough, it works for me. Despite knowing a stream of Sonic attacks is superior, I get more enthusiastic about the bright Sentinel reticle. I guess I'm easy to fool with GFX!

[Zeraphia]

23 minutes ago, oldskool said:

You've got some interesting ideas about how Opportunity could work so keep on fighting the good fight. For me personally, I couldn't care any less about it.  

Wow... You've come a really long way since our discussions on here! I'm glad you've been looking more at "the other side."

 

I really have been enjoying your posts lately and I feel like they're coming from a place of truly seeing what other ATs are actually producing in comparison to what the Sentinel currently is. I have tried the mechanic, and I said from the "start" that I didn't like it despite many vehemently defending it. 

 

It comes at too great a cost overall in terms of the way it plays to me, and that was the bottom line to it. It doesn't produce the DPS of even some Tanker combinations (thanks in part to TW - another part due to just overall Tanker damage rising), so it doesn't even compete with Scrapper/Stalker (who honestly have better survivability I'm finding just due to higher HP + better "mechanics" - Hide (forcefully evading all damage) -> almost oneshot bosses is a lot better damage mitigation than fighting at range really is), their inherent's -res just doesn't compare to what we're seeing other things bring to the table for -res. I don't think it really brings much to the team at this moment in time based around my experiences with it and those I team with. 

 

It also forces you to use a power that could interrupt the attack chain, and/or force you to take a power just to use one part the mechanic at all (something that is unprecedented for any AT to be forced to deal with). 

 

For these reasons I really do think offering just better damage mitigation tools in the secondary (whether this be through improving base HP, offering higher defensive numbers on resistance/defensive powers) to sort of "replace" the defensive part of opportunity and a general damage buff in addition to a reworked inherent entirely would be the way to go IMO to put them on a "competitive" level to a Scrapper. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Zeraphia

[Mechanisto]

14 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Generally I don't care.  I also feel that way about several other ATs because the characters that exist within those domains aren't built to give a flip about their inherent.  Opportunity only really shines, right now, when a target is going to live long enough for it to matter.  That's generally a limited list of enemies like AVs/GMs.  When the cross hairs do go off, then I know that everyone is doing more damage.  That's nice, but... I could be happy with something else too. 

I kind of figured that would be the general response. It's just not as exciting as it should be. And I'm not being cynical when I ask "Should you get excited?" Maybe a passive bonus would be better than something that requires a lot of active clicky or a sudden change in tactics. Doms and Stalkers have more active abilities that don't really require or encourage teamwork, but Sentinels seem like they were designed with this in mind... thematically if not numerically.

 

I do think that, instead of having Offensive and Defensive opportunities, they should have seperate "Minion-Mopper" and "Boss-Buster" abilities. Maybe if you trigger the cross-hairs, it only drains a percentage of your special bar? Maybe Minions only drain it by 25% or so, and leutennants drain it by half?

 

I'd also like a change to Defensive Opportunity so it helps the whole team in some way. But maybe not in a way that overlaps with Defenders or Controllers. Dunno what that would be, exactly. 

 

24 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Strangely enough, it works for me. Despite knowing a stream of Sonic attacks is superior, I get more enthusiastic about the bright Sentinel reticle. I guess I'm easy to fool with GFX!

I have a sudden urge to make a Sonic/Whatever Sentinel. Curse youuuu! 😄

[Mechanisto]

22 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

It comes at too great a cost overall in terms of the way it plays to me, and that was the bottom line to it. It doesn't produce the DPS of even some Tanker combinations (thanks in part to TW - another part due to just overall Tanker damage rising), so it doesn't even compete with Scrapper/Stalker (who honestly have better survivability I'm finding just due to higher HP + better "mechanics" - Hide (forcefully evading all damage) -> almost oneshot bosses is a lot better damage mitigation than fighting at range really is), their inherent's -res just doesn't compare to what we're seeing other things bring to the table for -res. I don't think it really brings much to the team at this moment in time based around my experiences with it and those I team with. 

 

It also forces you to use a power that could interrupt the attack chain, and/or force you to take a power just to use one part the mechanic at all (something that is unprecedented for any AT to be forced to deal with). 

 

For these reasons I really do think offering just better damage mitigation tools in the secondary (whether this be through improving base HP, offering higher defensive numbers on resistance/defensive powers) to sort of "replace" the defensive part of opportunity and a general damage buff in addition to a reworked inherent entirely would be the way to go IMO to put them on a "competitive" level to a Scrapper. 

I don't personally think the Sentinel should be concerned with DPS, but it does feel bizarre that they do less than Tanks (Unless that's part of the whole "Ranged does less damage than Melee because it's safer" ethos). I feel like their offense and defense should be somewhere between tanks and scrappers, in both cases.

 

Would it help if the T1 and T2 attacks were buffed in some way, to make it worth capping off a rotation? Maybe those two attacks could take on a drastically different form when they trigger the opportunity mechanic. Sort of like how Tidal Power makes certain Water attacks better/different, or how Savage Melee attacks change slightly as you build stacks. If you only use your T1/T2 to trigger the Opportunity, then maybe that's the point in time where it needs to shine the most. I'm running a Water/Bio Sentinel now, and I'm using the T1 Attack just to build Tidal Power fast. It's the first time I've ever used a T1 power at all... though dunno how long I'll keep it.

 

On your last point, I dunno if we should ask what would make a Sentinel the same as a scrapper. I'd like something that makes the Sentinel similarly useful, but in a different way. I think the main complaint isn't that Sentinels need to be as good as Scrappers: It's that Sentinels aren't very good in general. Or at least aren't perceived as such.

 

Note: I was running my Water/Bio Sentinel just now, and thought "Oh, yeah! I got three stacks built up! Time to use my unique sentinel abilit... oh. That's Tidal Power. Well... Nevermind then." You can't make this stuff up. 😛

[Zeraphia]

2 minutes ago, Mechanisto said:

I don't personally think the Sentinel should be concerned with DPS😛

???

 

That's literally their primary, it is a BLAST set. Blasts deal damage, Sentinels were made to deal damage. They are a hard-line DPS archetype, even by the devs, they are stated to be like "ranged Scrappers." They are a damage-first, their survivability only enhances their ability to stay alive to fulfill the role of the primary function. They are not Tankers, they do not aggro. They don't even get a form of "Taunt" in their primaries like Scrappers do to fulfill this purpose.

 

They are not Corruptors despite what their inherent is leading people to believe. They do not amplify people or debuff enemies in the same magnitude or way that support sets do. 

5 minutes ago, Mechanisto said:

Would it help if the T1 and T2 attacks were buffed in some way, to make it worth capping off a rotation? Maybe those two attacks could take on a drastically different form when they trigger the opportunity mechanic. Sort of like how Tidal Power makes certain Water attacks better/different, or how Savage Melee attacks change slightly as you build stacks. If you only use your T1/T2 to trigger the Opportunity, then maybe that's the point in time where it needs to shine the most. I'm running a Water/Bio Sentinel now, and I'm using the T1 Attack just to build Tidal Power fast. It's the first time I've ever used a T1 power at all... though dunno how long I'll keep it.😛

I'm not for the opportunity mechanic in any form, I'm sorry but no matter how amazing you make the two powers, you've still imposed an unnecessary restriction of being forced to take another power that no other AT by virtue of simply existing *must* take to utilize their inherent. 

 

What is a "great" T1/T2 power for one set just doesn't always translate to all sets. For some, it is worth it to take both, in many, it is not. 

 

I'm really not trying to come across as mean or attacking you by any means, I just disagree and find this flawed. 

[Zerethon]

So, DPS is an easy fix, we all talk about fixing the inherent to make it not based on the attacks (I've stated just combine both forms into a single click dom-type power) if you still feel like we actually need more damage, give us a stacking 5% Damage buff while opportunity is active or make the offensive side of the buff work more like the chance to doublehit incarnate power, effectively giving us "Crits" while we have opportunity active.

However, i've been playing this build lately (This is WITHOUT any incarnate buffs): https://imgur.com/lZiqFmu

 

And honestly, if the passive was just a dominator type power instead of the active, it would be perfectly fine for most content.

I'm as tough as a /Elec scrapper, my speed is non-suppressible and yeah i can't taunt, but i can stay in melee range against pretty much anything and beat the crap out of it.

But the untold side, this means i can spam -end and -recov procs with near impunity even in non-incarnate content which means i can shut down entire groups without a single actual Hold/stun/etc against most foes.

So as with Doms/Controllers/etc DPS isn't everything ALL THE TIME, give us too much damage and blasters are useless because we get Mez protections and lots of healing/absorb/etc innately

Balance is a testy and hard process

[oldskool]

53 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Wow... You've come a really long way since our discussions on here! I'm glad you've been looking more at "the other side."

 

I really have been enjoying your posts lately and I feel like they're coming from a place of truly seeing what other ATs are actually producing in comparison to what the Sentinel currently is. I have tried the mechanic, and I said from the "start" that I didn't like it despite many vehemently defending it. 

Thanks, I think.  

[Mechanisto]

24 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

That's literally their primary, it is a BLAST set. Blasts deal damage, Sentinels were made to deal damage.

Um... if they were made to do damage, why is everybody complaining about their low damage? Not being sarcastic. Genuinely confused.

 

I figured they were Tank/Damage hybrids, the way Dominators are Ranged/Melee hybrids. They can do a lot of damage, but it's not necessarily why you bring one along. Though to be honest, when I said sentinels shouldn't be "concerned with damage," I think I might have been mentally comparing them to Blasters and their main role as a stellar damage dealer. Probably just a brain burp on my part.

 

But regardless, the developer's original design intentions aren't what matters here. Only the reality. You could "fix" Sentinels by giving them better defenses and making them primary tanks. Would people be happy with that? I assume not.

 

 

[Zeraphia]

1 minute ago, Mechanisto said:

Um... if they were made to do damage, why is everybody complaining about their low damage?

You literally explained it in your own question. They are supposed to be dealing more damage than they are, hence they are complaining about its low damage.

2 minutes ago, Mechanisto said:

I figured they were Tank/Damage hybrids, the way Dominators are Ranged/Melee hybrids. They can do a lot of damage, but it's not necessarily why you bring one along. Though to be honest, when I said sentinels shouldn't be "concerned with damage," I think I might have been mentally comparing them to Blasters and their main role as a stellar damage dealer. Probably just a brain burp on my part.

See, there's a difference, a big one...

 

Dominators - PRIMARY - Control.

Sentinels - PRIMARY - Blast.

 

Dominators' main purpose is to CONTROL, that is explicitly stated. Sentinel's purpose is not to be a "ranged Tanker." That was never the intended direction of the AT, hence no form of Taunt whatsoever and drastically decreased survivability (compared to Tanker).

 

Why do you bring a Sentinel to a team? It SHOULD be their damage but it really brings nothing special to the table another AT cannot fulfill and do its job better and that just is what it is, doesn't make it outright bad, makes it not competitive. 

Why do you bring a Dominator along? Because the situation or team specifically calls for MEZ, it has a clear role to do its job. 

[Mechanisto]

2 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

You literally explained it in your own question. They are supposed to be dealing more damage than they are, hence they are complaining about its low damage.

See, there's a difference, a big one...

 

Dominators - PRIMARY - Control.

Sentinels - PRIMARY - Blast.

 

Dominators' main purpose is to CONTROL, that is explicitly stated. Sentinel's purpose is not to be a "ranged Tanker." That was never the intended direction of the AT, hence no form of Taunt whatsoever and drastically decreased survivability (compared to Tanker).

 

Why do you bring a Sentinel to a team? It SHOULD be their damage but it really brings nothing special to the table another AT cannot fulfill and do its job better and that just is what it is, doesn't make it outright bad, makes it not competitive. 

Why do you bring a Dominator along? Because the situation or team specifically calls for MEZ, it has a clear role to do its job. 

Then why is nobody comparing Sentinel primaries to Blaster primaries?

 

I think we agree that "it really brings nothing special to the table that another AT cannot fulfill". I just think maybe Sentinels should focus a bit more on the "something special" than just raw damage. I'd love to see an AT that specializes in single-target debuff, and has slightly above average damage/defense.

 

I will confess, though, that I don't have as much experience with Sentinels in high-end content. If their damage is not merely lackluster but downright abysmal, that's a problem that needs to be fixed. All I know is they feel unexceptional at low levels, and it sounds like this problem doesn't go away as they advance. To me, that suggests there is a problem flat across the board.

[oldskool]

1 minute ago, Mechanisto said:

Then why is nobody comparing Sentinel primaries to Blaster primaries?

Um, people have.  Hell, it is one of the most popular versions of "beat the dead horse" that exists on these forums.  

I've said it a few times in this thread, and elsewhere.  Comparing Blaster primaries, or any primary to primary, in a vacuum is a near worthless exercise.  

Despite what the horrible character creator leads people to think, Blasters are not, and never have been, a pure ranged DPS class.  It's goal was to do "damage".  It is supposed to be the master of damage.  It can engage at range, it can do lots of AoE, and/or it can engage in melee.  The secondaries of the Blaster contribute just as much to their overall potential as their primary.  

To compare Blaster range primaries is to assume the vast majority of those players are running */Devices or */TA while simultaneously ignoring all other powers within those particular sets (i.e., Taser, Caltrops, Glue Arrow, etc.).  

Sentinels really don't have that much in common with Blasters besides some powers within their primaries.  However, Sentinels play very differently.  That's due to both the secondary being defense AND the changes made to the blast sets themselves. 

[Mechanisto]

1 minute ago, oldskool said:

Um, people have.  Hell, it is one of the most popular versions of "beat the dead horse" that exists on these forums.  

I've said it a few times in this thread, and elsewhere.  Comparing Blaster primaries, or any primary to primary, in a vacuum is a near worthless exercise.  

Despite what the horrible character creator leads people to think, Blasters are not, and never have been, a pure ranged DPS class.  It's goal was to do "damage".  It is supposed to be the master of damage.  It can engage at range, it can do lots of AoE, and/or it can engage in melee.  The secondaries of the Blaster contribute just as much to their overall potential as their primary.  

To compare Blaster range primaries is to assume the vast majority of those players are running */Devices or */TA while simultaneously ignoring all other powers within those particular sets (i.e., Taser, Caltrops, Glue Arrow, etc.).  

Sentinels really don't have that much in common with Blasters besides some powers within their primaries.  However, Sentinels play very differently.  That's due to both the secondary being defense AND the changes made to the blast sets themselves. 

Aaah no! The dead horse got up and is chasing me!!!

 

Apologies. I was kind of trying to suggest that primary comparisons aren't that useful. I've always thought of Blasters as Ranged/Melee hybrids. I recently made a Devices Blaster with no primary powers at all and I'm liking it more than I thought I would.

 

I like how Sentinels are a different playstyle, and I don't think a pure damage boost will make them stand out in any interesting way. They might still need a damage boost if their damage is outright broken, though. Sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting otherwise.

[oldskool]

3 minutes ago, Mechanisto said:

Aaah no! The dead horse got up and is chasing me!!!

 

Apologies. I was kind of trying to suggest that primary comparisons aren't that useful. I've always thought of Blasters as Ranged/Melee hybrids. I recently made a Devices Blaster with no primary powers at all and I'm liking it more than I thought I would.

 

I like how Sentinels are a different playstyle, and I don't think a pure damage boost will make them stand out in any interesting way. They might still need a damage boost if their damage is outright broken, though. Sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting otherwise.

The perception of "broken" damage is very real.  I think the severity of the issue differs among users, and that is at the heart of the argument.  There are and always have been very valid criticisms of the AT.  There are very valid criticisms of the IO system and how it can be used to expand damage.  Despite what some may think of me personally, I've never felt any different.  I do get tired of hyperbole very quickly and these kinds of threads can get awfully heated.  That doesn't mean I ever stopped recognizing a disparity or stopped respecting others views.  My take is just different, and my perception of how deep the problem is isn't as large as some others.  It is probably my own personal failure to fully capture that in these kinds of discussions over time, but it is something I have always felt.  

Boosting the damage of the Sentinel would be meaningful because it puts them into the same realm as other damage dealers.  Whether or not that is interesting is something entirely different.  Is Scrapper or Stalker critical hits interesting?  Is Defiance interesting?  Is Fury interesting?  Maybe for some folks any one of those are interesting.  To me, they are just mechanics that get used in a game that has a shallow series of options.  

If the Sentinel isn't interesting to anyone right now, that can be potentially attributed to its damage reputation.  Will it be more interesting if it gets a buff?  That's far too subjective to create any meaningful conclusions.  

[Mechanisto]

I think I might be engaging in two separate arguments at once: "Are Sentinels effective?" and "Are Sentinels interesting and distinct?" In my view it's like... well...

 

I remember back on live when Stalkers had a very significant movement penalty while stealthed. It made it frustrating and difficult to get into position while on a large team, so I only played Stalkers solo or on very small teams with close friends. And I loved Stalkers, even then. But it would've been nice to be part of a team. Imagine if somebody had suggested "Well, just get rid of the Stalker's stealth and give them random crits to make up for it."

 

Stalkers aren't Scrappers. They have very similar roles and power sets, but they play completely differently. I'm sure nobody here is arguing that Stalkers are redundant or ineffective, so it's not the best comparison... but I've seen people suggest that the Opportunity mechanic should just be removed, and the Sentinel's damage should be increased. I don't want Sentinels to be turned into nothing more than tougher Blasters.

 

Yes, the Opportunity mechanic is mediocre and clunky. But I'd rather see it fixed than removed.

 

In any case, I'm speaking only as a newcomer to all this. I honestly didn't realize there were such long-standing arguments on the topic. Thanks very much for explaining the finer details, and for being patient with me!

[Zerethon]

5 hours ago, oldskool said:

Boosting the damage of the Sentinel would be meaningful because it puts them into the same realm as other damage dealers.  Whether or not that is interesting is something entirely different.  Is Scrapper or Stalker critical hits interesting?  Is Defiance interesting?  Is Fury interesting?  Maybe for some folks any one of those are interesting.  To me, they are just mechanics that get used in a game that has a shallow series of options.  

If the Sentinel isn't interesting to anyone right now, that can be potentially attributed to its damage reputation.  Will it be more interesting if it gets a buff?  That's far too subjective to create any meaningful conclusions.  

I touched on this before, so i guess I'll bring out my own wall.

Critical hits are interesting, because they're exciting, to be coming so close to death on a scrapper in a hard fight, and then get that crit that finishes off the last guy moments before he would have killed you is exciting. On stalkers, knowing that you constantly have that trump card of a Crit AS or a crit from hide in a fight lets you get those beautiful "SURPRISE MOTHER**" moments of Crit into Crit and just blowing up a single target

Fury is interesting because it rewards you heavily for just staying stuck in fight after fight, no tactics, only punching or your preferred method of applied brutality. Etc. Every passive is interesting or useful in a way, even the current sentinel one.

The problem is this, yes, we could buff sentinels to blaster scale ranged damage, but without a reason to get close (Melee attacks, traps, etc. that blasters have) you now have a blaster level of ST Ranged DPS that can drop a 20%+ Res debuff on a target that ALSO has a scrapper level of survival tacked on

The better solution is twofold, and the one i keep harping on, and I've had 2 major options kicking around:

#1) Turn Opportunity into a click power like domination, your next ST attack applies Vulnerability to the target and you get both of the current buffs for the duration as just "Opportunity".

Additional options include making it so that each successful ST attack on a target during the duration applies vulnerability stacks (7-10% each, up to 3 stacks or something) instead of only the first target hit, or adding basically a chance to "Mini crit" to attacks while it's active, OR adding a stacking self damage buff for each successful application of vulnerability on the multi-stackable version

#2) Do away with the active side entirely, keep the lower passive resist debuff, maybe buff it a bit, and make the bar work like fury instead of domination. the higher the bar, the more health and end you get per attack, and while the bar is at 50% or higher, attacks can do bonus damage

This option makes you tougher still for staying stuck in combat by making the "Defensive" opportunity a passive effect that scales up with your "Determination" or whatever we call the bar, and if you keep fighting, just like a brute, your attacks will start gaining a chance to do a weaker doublehit incarnate or something in the damage type of the set once you pass the halfway threshold

The problem currently is for as good as the debuff actually is (No seriously, -25% or so to all resists is pretty scary as a passive-based effect) and as surprisingly useful as the opportunity buffs are, they have a couple of issues: 1.) To get full effect, you are FORCED to take 2 powers, at least one of which may suck or not fit your theme and 2.) Overall the effects of the buffs and debuffs are not obvious enough or impactful enough to the SENTINEL ITSELF in the way domination, containment, fury, defiance, etc. are

It's kinda like the PB/WS Passive in that sense, the passive is pretty much useless if you're alone. Where the sentinels isn't useless, but it doesn't have such a big impact you pretty much ignore it, but if you bother to use it you're much much scarier (Swapping targets to drop the debuff on a boss instead of killing a weakling with it, etc.)

I mean, creative use of defense opportunity, my armor heal, t9, and debuffs on my Ice/Nin had me tanking a kahn TF where the actual tank left and never came back, including reichsman and the AV's, with basically all SO's. Yeah yeah, i know, your Fire/Fire/Mace blaster with all T4 incarns and a billion inf of IO's can solo it, but we're talking about sentinels here. That was the "Hold up" moment for me

Now i have my Ice/Nin, Dark/Bio, Fire/Invul, DP/Fire, Elec/Elec and others, and honestly i enjoy them as much as my main AT (Stalker) and yeah, they need work to feel "Complete" in a sense, but i wouldn't say the idea needs a major overhaul, we just need the unique ability to not suck and be so tied to attacks in the set

[Mechanisto]

1 hour ago, Zerethon said:

I mean, creative use of defense opportunity, my armor heal, t9, and debuffs on my Ice/Nin had me tanking a kahn TF where the actual tank left and never came back, including reichsman and the AV's, with basically all SO's. Yeah yeah, i know, your Fire/Fire/Mace blaster with all T4 incarns and a billion inf of IO's can solo it, but we're talking about sentinels here. That was the "Hold up" moment for me

I love hearing stories like this. Wish I had some of my own.

 

Another question. Do people think Sentinels should be lone wolf opportunists who stay on the edge of battle and do their own thing? Or should they have a trick up their sleeve that can help the whole team? If they're really just ranged Scrappers that require less babysitting from a Main Tank, then maybe the former is best. But I'd personally prefer to see them function as tough damage dealers with a tactical support gimmick.

 

Stalkers deal massive sneak attack damage, but can also apply a Demoralize/Fear effect to other nearby enemies. It helps a team, sure, but also makes it easier for a solo Stalker to pick them off one by one. They're certainly no substitute for a Controller or Dominator, but it's still a really neat effect that's thematically appropriate and further separates them from Scrappers. It's not a critical ability, but Stalkers would feel a little less satisfying if it were removed.

 

At the very least, I do think that a Sentinel's damage should be equal to a Scrapper's when the Sentinel's special mechanic is active, whatever that mechanic might be. If the mechanic doesn't help the team, it should make the Sentinel's damage slightly superior to a Scrapper's. Kind of how a Brute's damage is equal or slightly superior to a Scrapper's when their fury bar is full, but fury takes more effort to maintain.

 

Wait... is a Brute's damage equal or better than a Scrappers when their Fury is full? Now I'm getting paranoid...

[Zerethon]

I tend to play like my stalkers, especially on my Elec/Elec and Ice/Nin, Focus on the biggest bad with my opener, move in and clear some trash in the process while landing the debuffs, and then pick off any priority targets still standing

EG: Ice storm -> Blizzard -> Bitter freeze ray on the biggest bad, start burning rotation
Or
Thunderous Blast -> Jump in -> Short circuit -> Cages -> Thunderstrike -> DPS

Both of these builds don't really do "Burst" but they do "Annoyingly constant damage and another thing" Ice/Nin has slows/holds/confuse and Elec/Elec is "**** your endurance bar" alongside holds and stuns

The difference with brutes and scrappers is crits vs. fury, scrappers can land a lot more BURST damage, brutes are a lot more CONSTANT damage

Sentinels are in the brute camp, we don't really do burst, but we can constantly lay fire on a target while being a decent threat to groups, since unlike blasters we have the advantage of armor and mez protections (Again, my Ele/Ele pushing 75% Resist to 5 types of damage without incarnates comes to mind) Where blasters fill the "Scrapper" role in the ranged department

Since they have higher damage and more melee options + more self buffs, but like scrapper vs. brute, this comes at the cost of durability in pretty much all cases (A Fire/Nrg blaster can do a TERRIFYING amount of damage, at the cost of being pretty fast to fall if focused on where a Fire/EA Sentinel would be able to keep unloading on targets even under fire.)

It's also worth noting that while we're still talking in a vacuum here, i'm talking in PVE @50 with zero incarnate powers on and just SO's - so no ATO's, sets, IO's or boosted IO's, HO's, etc.

Sets, ATO sets, IO's and boosting combined with incarnates just skews the overall data in favor of the biggest bomb since they can cover all the bases you would normally lack, or the compromises you have to make in a build

'Cause yeah, a Fire/NRG/Something blaster (Mace?) with full sets/purples/superior ATO's and T4 incarnates at 50+1 can do things a "Squishy" shouldn't typically be able to do. And doing comparisons at that level of power is just meta-hounding and that accomplishes nothing.

[oldskool]

9 hours ago, Mechanisto said:

Another question. Do people think Sentinels should be lone wolf opportunists who stay on the edge of battle and do their own thing? Or should they have a trick up their sleeve that can help the whole team? If they're really just ranged Scrappers that require less babysitting from a Main Tank, then maybe the former is best. But I'd personally prefer to see them function as tough damage dealers with a tactical support gimmick.

 

Wait... is a Brute's damage equal or better than a Scrappers when their Fury is full? Now I'm getting paranoid...

TL;DR: This is long, sorry.  This isn't a beatdown session against anyone either.  This is just about perspective.  

 

Here's the deal.  Many months ago when another one of these threads sprouted elsewhere (I think in "Suggestions") one of the devs here chimed in.  That is where the idea of "ranged Scrapper" comes from.  

Furthermore, it was stated that Sentinels will get looked at sometime in the future.  It is also very likely Opportunity is going to go bye bye as it currently exists.  This in turn spawns long discussions about what could be as well as comparisons to what is currently the inherent mechanic.  

So from a dev perspective, Sentinels should be more like a ranged Scrapper.  That would suggest more like a non-babysit team contributor that does damage albeit largely at range vs being largely in melee.  So making them lone wolf opportunists isn't necessarily outside the realm of possibility.  HOWEVER, one of the initial ideas floated was that the Sentinel fulfill a kind of "watcher/spotter" role having some kind of group buff.  That buff initially tossed around had to do with team accuracy/to-hit.  I really doubt this is going to happen, but who knows?  So you may very well get your tactical support gimmick.  

So when the idea of "How to change the inherent" comes up it has me consider that the current implementation of Opportunity is probably going to go away.  That means the current -res is likely to just get replaced by something else.  Does that suck for me?  Yes, yes it does at least potentially.  If it goes as well as it did for Tankers, then I think I'd be pretty happy.  Is it better for the community?  It seems very much like it could be given that I am largely out numbered by those that scream to the heavens about how much they seem to loathe the AT as it is (you can step outside the Sentinel subforum to see that).  

The Tanker buffs recently showcased a series of thought by the HC devs.  That is one where having an inherent that imposes a -resistance debuff shouldn't exist.  The team doesn't seem that enthusiastic about allowing those kinds of things to exist beyond certain procs and support sets (select primaries not withstanding).  What happened with Tankers is that the general damage that Bruising used to provide was rolled into the AT itself.  This turned out to be a net gain for most, if not all, builds.  

So, it stands to reason that if the Sentinel absorbs X percentage of -resistance effectiveness into its core AT damage modifier then its general damage will increase.  This sounds great on paper.  Depending on how high that AT mod goes, it may not be enough.  Hell, even that change alone will likely never be enough for some folks.  Now, I'll see if I can explain why as best as I can.  

Sentinels have modified range set AoE powers.  These powers within the other ATs have target caps of 10 for cones and 16 for spheres.  Sentinels cap at 6 for cones and 10 for spheres.  There are some outlier sets like Sonic Blast where all the cones hit 10 or Water Blast's Steam Spray that hits 10 or other rare powers that may hit something else.  The trend of 6 and 10 holds for most of the AT.  

Right now, I can log in and stare directly at a Blaster that does 243 enhanced damage with a 16 target cap sphere and a Sentinel that does 210 enhanced damage with a 10 target cap sphere (same power, different ATs).  Against 10 targets the total damage dealt is going to be in favor of the Blaster, but not isn't that huge a gulf.  Even with Defiance pushing more base damage, we're not looking at anything that is as drastic as some claim.  That is... until you run in full groups where the possibility of facing off against 16+ targets becomes more common.  Then the Blaster is suddenly hitting 60% more targets, at a high base scalar, includes an escalating damage buff that is consistent, and has potential access to Build-Up in the secondary.  

Sentinels aren't going to catch up to that with a core damage buff. (Note: I'm not sure they even should catch up.  It just happens to be one of the biggest points of argument on Sentinel effectiveness... target caps.  The lack of hitting all the things makes Sentinels less effective and therefore either less fun or outright useless to some.)  There is no implementation of any kind of non-DPS inherent that is going to close that gap.  We're talking about a Blaster moving from doing over 2K damage in that one power to doing over 3K damage.  That's just (ranged) spheres.  (Ranged) Cones can potentially be just as bad.  

Still, when looking at this through a really narrow lens (which is almost all of these discussions) one can total up all potential damage dealt by a Blaster in AoE vs Sentinel in AoE showing the Blaster is going to come out FAR ahead.  That's never going to change with just a damage buff unless the Sentinel's damage buff is so high that it exceeds a Blaster's per target damage.  That would be a horrible decision for game balance though.   It would make Sentinels monsters that could potentially eclipse several ATs in that realm.  

Single target.  Blaster/Corruptors/Defenders gained a lot from the fast snipe changes.  Dominators did too by extension, but their attack routines aren't as easy to make side by side comparisons with.  Any Scrappers or Stalkers incorporating Moonbeam/Zapp made out like bandits too, but they already did in some cases.  Anyway, snipes change things. Even if we brought Sentinel's core AT modifier right up to that of the Blaster (1.125) the Blaster still has an edge.  That is because there are no real apples to apples ST rotation comparisons between Sentinels and Blasters beyond Water Blast.  Sentinel sets that did not have a winner in the "lacks a snipe" set will still be behind their Blaster counterpart.  That's not just because of Defiance (though it is a contributor to that), but also has a lot to do with the innate damage scaling of snipes.    

What I'm getting at is this.  If Sentinels only get a baseline damage increase to their AT modifier, and Opportunity gets replaced by a non-DPS inherent, there is a real good chance threads like this pop up again.  The baseline damage mod is not the only issue at play.  It is target caps, it is certain power DPA ratings, and it also involves a lot of player bias.  The last one is hard, if not impossible, to change, but the others could be carefully addressed.  

Anyway, this is why I have beat the drum of adding critical hits.  Its not because I want something lazy.  It is not because I want Sentinels to be uninteresting.  It is for the following reasons: 

 

1) It is a fairly simple way of improving general damage contribution without allowing core DPA mechanics and design to get out of control. [There is a dev thread about how new powers are created.  Pushing baseline AT damage modifiers higher and higher could cause some serious unintended consequences for future powers.  So I keep it in mind.]

2) It is a change that makes the Sentinel more accessible.  It would remove the need for the inherent to be linked to any specific power.  

3) No other ranged using sets have criticals from 100% health to 0.  Corruptor Scourge is a different animal and its overall contribution is balanced against Defender Vigilance.  One is a more team-oriented damage buff (Scourge), and the other a more solo-oriented damage buff (Vigilance).  

4) Critical hits seems like a simple and fair compromise for a team that is hosting this for free.   

 

I've been very vocal, for quite some time now, that while I am generally happy with my Sentinels I am still OK with any changes that make the broader community happier with it.  I do not think a base damage increase + non-DPS related inherent is going to move the needle.  I do not think many people truly appreciate just how much damage even a 50% up time on a 20% resistance debuff effect actually brings in real play (Edit: I also recognize there is a very fine line from overstating this effect.  So I keep my flame resistant underpants on.).  People cannot immediately see its effects and therefore it gets ignored.  That's how human perception works.  

Critical hits, despite seeming to be uninspired, would allow for the AT to have a very minor baseline damage improvement.  It could either remain at its current 0.95 or shift up to 1.0.  The critical hit rate could be throttled down to whatever Scrappers have.  It doesn't need to be like the Stalker in this regard.  The reason why I have that concern is due to Sentinel T9 powers.  Sentinels with Aim + a critical T9 could do pretty extreme damage.  Still, given that most Sentinel T9's do less than a Blaster's, this wouldn't be too big a deal as long as the overall base damage doesn't go too far from where it is.  [Edit: There has been great contributions from other posters bringing up some Scrapper AoEs on shorter cooldowns that do substantial damage within the time frame of a Sent T9 cooldown.  So again, Sentinels completely wiping the floor against max targets in one power can be a potential concern depending on how it was implemented.  This is also why I fundamentally hate Sentinel vs Blaster circle jerk sessions.  They completely ignore Scrappers and it also trends toward ignoring the conceptual ideal of what Sentinels were supposed to be.]

As to the second quote... Is Brute damage equal to a Scrapper at full Fury?  Generally, no.  Brutes even at full Fury do have substantial sustained damage, but Scrapper critical hits create bursts.  Even without the critical hits Scrappers still have a higher base damage which should give them an advantage.  Now, that isn't to say there aren't going to be variances between the ATs.  Primaries are not created equal.  So a Staff Fighting Scrapper may do less ST than a Brute running War Mace.  The individual player builds also create an X factor.  Still, generally a Scrapper should be doing more (even if slightly) on average.  [Edit: P.S., should and actually do are different things. 😉]

Edit P.S.S.  I know I brought up Blasters a lot here.  I can't express in words how much I despise that comparison game.  Beyond the statement that Sentinels were conceptually ranged Scrappers, there is no other real metric point for comparison.  There hasn't been any stated "DPS ATs are supposed to 300 DPS or that DPS ATs are supposed to 200 DPS".  We've seen "Titan Weapons is going to get looked at" and many of those builds are capable of pushing 400 DPS.  I've seen commentary by the devs that Stalkers are the highest damage single target AT right now.  Many of them can easily hit 300 DPS.  The old forums used to praise numbers like 180-200.  So it is very possible that Sentinel DPS is just fine and that the power creep elsewhere is skewing whatever baseline the devs want.   Frankly, we don't know.

Edited June 3, 2020 by oldskool
so many typos

[Zerethon]

4 hours ago, oldskool said:

😉

 

Edit P.S.S.  I know I brought up Blasters a lot here.  I can't express in words how much I despise that comparison game.  Beyond the statement that Sentinels were conceptually ranged Scrappers, there is no other real metric point for comparison.  There hasn't been any stated "DPS ATs are supposed to 300 DPS or that DPS ATs are supposed to 200 DPS".  We've seen "Titan Weapons is going to get looked at" and many of those builds are capable of pushing 400 DPS.  I've seen commentary by the devs that Stalkers are the highest damage single target AT right now.  Many of them can easily hit 300 DPS.  The old forums used to praise numbers like 180-200.  So it is very possible that Sentinel DPS is just fine and that the power creep elsewhere is skewing whatever baseline the devs want.   Frankly, we don't know.

A Ton of valid info, and your posts are partly the driving force behind some of my ideas. "Just add crits" seems fine but lazy so i've spitballed variants (Inverse scourge, mini-crits during opportunity, etc.)

As much as people probably ignore it, opportunity is actually amazing (Healing for 40+ health every single attack is pretty good) it's just easy to ignore in bigger fights

On the DPS comment, my sents can push 200+ DPS even without being "Proc monster" builds so the damage isn't the problem when we're talking ST DPS, it's when you draw comparisons to blasters or corruptors instead of scrappers. "Ranged attacker" does not equal equivalent.

Compared to a scrapper, we trade crits for extra safety and survival by having ranged attacks, no taunts, and a lack of damage auras generally. but i feel turning the class into LITERALLY just a ranged scrapper by dropping opportunity for crits is just....lame.

Instead, i feel like it should be more a case of "Crab spooder: The AT" Durable ranged DPS with a team and self buff. If we don't want -res on a class passive effect to be a thing, how about making it like inverted defiance? More successful attacks increases our damage and the damage of nearby teammates?

Or i mentioned inverse scourge before, we do more damage to targets at higher HP. Thus meaning we could basically "Crit" on targets over 50% or so health

No matter what though, i don't think the AT should lose it's uniqueness, a large part of our survival and potential trickery comes from our innate healing ability in defense mode, and sets like dark blast that can stack BOTH effects at the same time show us just how good the AT could be if the effect wasn't as clunky to use. Heck i'd be happy with just making both effects part of a dom-type clicky (i'm fully in this camp, giving us a "Permadom" state of the buffs would solve some issues on odd sets) and modifying the -res effect into something more classy

Honestly, anyone who says the crosshair popping up on a boss doesn't do anything hasn't played a sentinel long enough to see first-hand what happens in teams. even a single sentinel adds a surprising amount of DPS to a single target when opportunity hits. not necessarily from themselves though.

Seriously, when i'm in a team beating on an AV that doesn't have a ton of debuffs and i see that little green ring appear on my attacks, it's just "PARTY TIME!" pop aim, spike the boss with it, and watch us suddenly melt a ton of health because that was the push we needed. Nobody but me will really notice, but it feels great.

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, Zerethon said:

your posts are partly the driving force behind some of my ideas.

This is the best compliment I could get.  Sometimes it may not seem like it, but I really don't view my own ideas as gospel.  

1 hour ago, Zerethon said:

dropping opportunity for crits is just....lame.

And this is a fair criticism.  Thankfully for everyone that reads this, I don't talk to the developers.  For all I know, they have no idea I exist and may have never read a word I've written.  So any ideas I throw around are really just that.  Ideas tossed at the wall.  I have 0 expectations that anything I think should happen will actually happen.  😉 

The only thing that seems very likely to happen is that Opportunity as we know it is going to change.  Target caps will likely not change.  Both of these things have been stated before, and those aren't my words.  

[Mechanisto]

Aaah so much interesting discussion! I need to start reading more of this forum in general.

 

And no, I'm not taking any of your responses as a personal attack. There was a reason I established myself as a noob when I first showed up. 🙂

 

1 hour ago, oldskool said:

The only thing that seems very likely to happen is that Opportunity as we know it is going to change.  Target caps will likely not change.  Both of these things have been stated before, and those aren't my words.  

 

I think I'd be fine with it changing. And I'll admit that, right now, it's probably more powerful than I give it credit for. Also, I haven't really used Defensive Opportunity much, so I should probably play around with it before I do any more complaining. On the topic of just giving Sentinels crits, it might be an easy and effective fix... but it does feel a little bit like homogenization. I do like the idea of giving the Sentinel a clicky button for activation, as with Dominators. A toggle would be neat, as others have mentioned... if the toggle is off, you're in Defensive mode. If it's on, you're in Offensive mode. And I do like the idea of Sentinels focusing more on single-target damage and leaving larger group nukes to the Blasters.

 

7 hours ago, oldskool said:

So from a dev perspective, Sentinels should be more like a ranged Scrapper.  That would suggest more like a non-babysit team contributor that does damage albeit largely at range vs being largely in melee.  So making them lone wolf opportunists isn't necessarily outside the realm of possibility.  HOWEVER, one of the initial ideas floated was that the Sentinel fulfill a kind of "watcher/spotter" role having some kind of group buff.  That buff initially tossed around had to do with team accuracy/to-hit.  I really doubt this is going to happen, but who knows?  So you may very well get your tactical support gimmick.  

Hmmm...

 

What if Defensive Opportunity was something you used on an ally? It could link both characters together for a short time, boosting both character's damage/defense/to-hit/whatever and maybe reducing the threat both characters generate. The sentinel's hit cap wouldn't matter as much because the targeted ally is also getting the damage bonus, and it would help take pressure off the team's main tank so he can worry about the larger battle instead of chasing vulnerable stragglers. Sentinels could become a Blaster's best friend

 

Maybe too fiddly to be practical in a really big group where all sorts of chaos is happening at once. But I could see Sentinels focusing more on single-target or small-group damage, so maybe they could serve as a "single-ally tank" as well? Like a bodyguard or something?

 

Now I'm daydreaming again. You're not the only one throwing random stuff at the wall, oldskool. 🙂

 

15 hours ago, Zerethon said:

Both of these builds don't really do "Burst" but they do "Annoyingly constant damage and another thing" Ice/Nin has slows/holds/confuse and Elec/Elec is "**** your endurance bar" alongside holds and stuns

The difference with brutes and scrappers is crits vs. fury, scrappers can land a lot more BURST damage, brutes are a lot more CONSTANT damage

Sentinels are in the brute camp, we don't really do burst, but we can constantly lay fire on a target while being a decent threat to groups, since unlike blasters we have the advantage of armor and mez protections (Again, my Ele/Ele pushing 75% Resist to 5 types of damage without incarnates comes to mind) Where blasters fill the "Scrapper" role in the ranged department

I've said it before, but I think I like Sentinels precisely because they're slow, steady, reliable and consistent. They're cautious and patient. They don't have the massive stand-out advantages of Blasters or Tanks, but they also have none of their crippling weaknesses (Blasters are fragile, Tanks are melee). I really do think there's a place in the game for an AT like that.

 

I'm only making suggestions for a more interesting Sentinel mechanic because that's what sets them apart. In terms of general statistical performance, they're middle of the road. And I'm okay with that remaining the case.