Nature/Dual Pistols shenanigans (Proc Monster lite)

[Erydanus]

I'm working on my Nature/Dual Pistols defender's build and I'm at the point of musing about how I want to slot some of the attacks, including whether I want to use Defender ATOs and if I want to go down the Proc Monster path which is a steep path indeed.   I have looked at Redlynne's No Escape builds for soul & time already for some inspiration. I'm kind of surprised there aren't more topics in this forum about dual pistols - it's not the highest damage set but it's pretty fun, and the numbers from the devs have shown a lot of people take it. I even went looking in the blaster forums and did not see much talk there, much less a proc monster topic (that seems weird, my search fu may be weak today)  but the No Escape thread had a lot of great proc discussion.

 

 

Currently I'm still deciding how I want to approach this overall. And one thing that didn't come up in the No Escape build was discussion of straight up damage procs for some of these powers because Redlynne was theorycrafting more of a leveraging build. The weird thing about pistols that I discovered this week when I went onto the beta server is that apparently all the procs that are eligible to be slotted into the attacks are eligible to fire regardless of if swap ammo is used, and that I just did not expect.  I was literally seeing Lady Grey's chance for negative energy damage firing off and thought, "Oh I meant to test the slow damage proc first with cold rounds … wait I am using chemical rounds right now..." and yeah I was seeing procs from knockback, defense debuff, and slow sets all firing with chemical rounds on, or off, or with other elements selected.  So I'm just assuming everything valid actually does function. I guess my assumption was that the pistol powers would work like pets where procs only function when the pet uses the appropriate power; but in this case it seems like swap ammo is just selectively activating bonus perks and the procs are going off the base powers all the time. 

 

Anyway the upshot of this is that there are so many procs eligible for these powers it's nuts. My general sense is that the faster, low tier powers probably will not proc often enough that replacing damage enhancement value with procs would be a good idea, but filling in extra slots with procs will still add damage.  And that sort of was borne out by my testing, I was shooting some random Freakshow for just a couple minutes and unslotted even the damage procs were firing off every 4 or 5 attacks and doing a big hit but divided over time was less damage gain than just sticking a damage IO in (Tier 1 defender power after all.) The bigger question is the mid and upper tier powers. Again, my gut feeling not backed up by Doing The Actual Math yet is that the high damage powers probably are on the other side and do enough damage on their own they'd outperform damage procs. That means the powers in the middle with the 10-15 second cooldowns are the sweet spot and competing for attention. Also, if the damage generated by a proc is roughly equivalent to the damage generated by about 32% damage enhancement, I'd still consider it valuable if it's a less common damage type. I.E., if a damage IO increases lethal damage by 30 and a proc grants on average 30 points of toxic damage, I'd consider the proc superior.

 

The ancillary issue too is that I want to stick both Defender ATO sets into my build. I've been using parts already and I'm super underwhelmed with the absorb proc and assume the heal proc is likewise mere sprinkles on the glazed donut, so I'm only slotting those pieces for set bonuses. I'm doing Defender's Bastion 6 part for its recharge bonus, but I want to split Vigilant Assault in half to reap two recharge bonuses which means some powers are gonna get really messy slotting. The enhancement values for those sets are way overkill for low tier powers but I could see shoving them into low tier powers just to get them out of the way. Though, more likely, since I often don't love the enhancement mix in PBAOE sets, it's more likely I'd split Vigilant Assault into Bullet Rain and Piercing Rounds and franken around them. 

 

Anyway, looking at Executioner's Shot it can actually take: (red damage, purple debuff, green self-buff)

 

Decimation - Chance of Buildup (1 PPM)

Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Toxic Damage (3.5 PPM)

Impeded Swiftness - Chance of Smashing Damage (3.5 PPM)

Pacing of the Turtle - Chance of -Recharge (not seeing PPM in Mids Reborn)

Achilles Heel - Chance of -Resistance (not seeing PPM)

Touch of Lady Gray - Chance of Negative Energy damage (3.5 PPM)

Explosive Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage (3.5 PPM)

Force Feedback - Chance for Recharge bonus (not seeing PPM)

Shield Breaker - Chance for Lethal Damage (3.5 PPM)

Analyze Weakness - Chance for +ToHit bonus (2 PPM)

 

Not including the ATOs, Winter, extra rare or purple sets.  I mean holy crap that list is nuts. And that power is typical for the set. The AoEs get Positron's energy proc and Annhilation's resist debuff proc, for instance. I think there's at least 3 damage procs that can go into every power.

 

So at this point I'm trying to figure out which power to just shove all pieces of Defender's Bastion in for its set bonus and I'm thinking it's Hail of Bullets but I'm not set on that;

my next priority is getting 2 copies of Force Feedback into my build because I think that would be a nice amount of bonus recharge. I'm thinking Empty Clips and Bullet Rain seemed good in the No Escape build so I was working from there.

Overall … and this feels weird … I have slots available in this build. I've got my nature affinity powers taken care of already and I put about 4 slots in all the attacks other than Hail and got them slotted with adequate accuracy and close to 90% damage and as little recharge as I could, and currently still have a whopping 10 slots available. So that means 1-2 procs in almost every attack if they'll be worth it. 

 

The other factor adding tension to the build is it's concept limited. Sorcery will not be available, so I've tentatively got Acrobatics in this build at the cost of most of the Leadership pool. (Holds have been a problem and the character is 38 right now so Incarnate powers and Clarion are a long way off.) The epic power pool is dead locked as Power Mastery and I took Power Build-Up at 35. And I put a Gaussian proc there. Which means if I use Overgrowth and then follow it up with Power Build-Up and I'm solo, I hit 272% damage buff briefly and then drop down to 82% for the rest of the minute that Overgrowth lasts for.  So my gut feeling is my 2nd priority is actually upping my damage resistance (and I'm not ignoring Corrosive Enzymes from my primary either!) 

 

But after that then my next thought would be to top up every power I can with non-lethal procs with a preference for the toxic and negative procs as space and cash allow. It just all feels like a lot to ask to gel all at once. Oh and if you were wondering I have procced the hell out of Entangling Aura and Suppressive Fire in this build. I have never seen the Lockdown proc fire as much as it does with Entangling aura I'm constantly surrounded by minions in lightning balls. 

 

Anyway that's my theorycraft dump for today. Allez cuisine.

 

 

 

[oldskool]

So I have the following Pistol using characters:

 

DP/Nin Sentinel (working on a DP/SR to replace - I just like SR more)

Dark Miasma/DP Defender

Dual Pistols/Traps Corruptor

 

In all of those cases they all use very similar strategies.  I 6 slot Pistols, Executioner's Shot, and 1 other power for ST damage.  The AoE powers usually get 5-6 slots depending on what I need in the build. That 1 other power is Dual Wield for Defenders/Corruptors and Suppressive Fire for Sentinels.  The Sentinel version of Suppressive Fire can out perform Dual Wield when considering the Unbreakable Constraint PPM 4.5 damage proc.  For Defenders/Corruptors, Suppressive Fire can be a hard hitting power with all of the Hold procs but the base recharge is very long (20 seconds vs 8 for Sentinels). 

I'll typically devote 3 slots to cover Accuracy, Damage, and Endurance.  Then 3 slots go to procs.  I tend to favor Executioner's Shot for Achilles' Heel and Pistols for Decimation: Build-Up.  The other two slots get damage procs (Apocalypse goes to Executioner's).  Dual Wield can take Impeded Swiftness, Explosive Strikes, and Gladiator's Javelin.  The Traps Corruptor swapped out the more utility procs for another damage since things like Acid Mortar can take Achilles' Heel instead. 

Hail of Bullets can take Armageddon with the Chance for Fire proc.  Also, it can take Fury of the Gladiator: Resistance Debuff.  I think you can see the trend...  Stack resistance debuff in multiple sources and abuse the hell out of it.  

Piercing Rounds, even if you want 5x Positron's Blast, is a pretty good place for Annihilation's resistance debuff (only 12.5% though).  The Defender version of Piercing Rounds using default lethal ammo gives you a -20% resistance debuff.  I find it worthwhile it to keep this utility for Defenders but I don't bother with it on the other ATs (Corruptor's get a -15% version and the "DPS" ATs get -9.6%). 

 

Piercing Rounds - Pistols - Executioner's Shot - Pistols  would want Piercing Rounds to recharge in 4.224 seconds.  This is possible with a lot of recharge but running standard lethal rounds gets you -resistance (plus procs) and -defense from both Pistols and Executioner's Shot (plus procs). 

Executioner's Shot (if running Achilles' Heel) - Pistols - Dual Wield - Pistols would want Executioner's Shot to recharge in 4.224 seconds too... This is far easier to accomplish on less global recharge.  The damage can also be surprisingly good on a Defender especially considering Intuition Radial and the possibility for Soul Drain.  I'd recommend using some form of elemental ammo since Dual Wield will KB.  Unless you like KB. 

 

This leaves Empty Clips and Bullet Rain.  I often use these two as my set bonus carriers.  They absolutely can take on procs and that is a possibility too.  I just happen to like building up my ST damage since I feel DP does decent, but not great, on AoE by default.  These two powers can be available quite often once you enhance their recharge BUT Force Feedback procs do work. 

 

I've experimented with FF procs in Hail of Bullets, Bullet Rain, and Empty Clips.  It works, but I dropped the idea for other general build considerations. 

When you start looking at the buffet table of procs with this set it is totally open ended.  Go NUTS with it!

Edited March 11, 2020 by oldskool

[Redlynne]

9 hours ago, Erydanus said:

Force Feedback - Chance for Recharge bonus (not seeing PPM)

2 PPM

9 hours ago, Erydanus said:

My general sense is that the faster, low tier powers probably will not proc often enough

Depends on your attack chain ... and what you're slotting into those attacks.  Depending on how your attack chain "flows" it IS possible to deliberately "go too low" on the proc chance and wind up with a net higher proc chance than you ought to be getting out of the power so long as you use it frequently enough.  I exploited this behavior EXTREMELY THOROUGHLY on my Ninja/Time/Mace Mastermind build so as to "overproc" the Decimation Build Up (1 PPM) slotted into Snap Shot (fast animation/fast recharge) in a way that actually nets a greater than 1 PPM proc rate (18.2% chance to proc Build Up EVERY 7.128s(!!!) ... or ... 12.5% chance to proc Build Up EVERY 7.392s(!!!) ... depending on which attack rotation is being used) simply via the Chuck Lots Of Dice™ method of using a small chance to proc A LOT.  Exactly HOW that performance was achieved is (more than) a bit ... wonky ... so you'd want to read carefully what I found and do some theorycrafting with your build and slotting before you can figure out how to exploit the edge cases most effectively with a fast animating/fast recharging attack power like Pistols.  The key point however is that you won't need Pistols to recharge any faster than the arcanatime of other attacks in your attack chain, so if you're repeatedly using Pistols as a "filler" attack so as to proc Decimation Build Up procs you'll want to ... design ... the shape of your attack chain from the start so as to know how much recharge is "useful" to get with your Pistols attack.

[Erydanus]

You actually covered that in the No Escape build too. I'm not going to mess with a build up proc in pistols though, I don't see it being useful when I actually have a 1 minute long build up type buff (Overgrowth) and Power Build up.  Lots of force feedback tho? mwahahaha.

 

I would slot pistols with like a toxic or dark proc if I thought they'd fire much, and had extra slots left over. Which I might.

[Redlynne]

Build Up procs are multipliers ... if you can chain AoE attacks after the attack with the Build Up proc slotted into it.  The real kicker is when you can get the Force Feedback procs going in the AoEs so that you can do something kind of insane where you can animate the AoEs and have them recharge to use AGAIN before the 5.25s buff from the Build up proc runs out.  That way you can get extra bites at the apple (so to speak) from every Build Up buff.

 

But hey, to each their own ...

[oldskool]

10 hours ago, Erydanus said:

You actually covered that in the No Escape build too. I'm not going to mess with a build up proc in pistols though, I don't see it being useful when I actually have a 1 minute long build up type buff (Overgrowth) and Power Build up.  Lots of force feedback tho? mwahahaha.

 

I would slot pistols with like a toxic or dark proc if I thought they'd fire much, and had extra slots left over. Which I might.

As I allude in my response, there is no reason at all why you can't do both.  Pistols with 2x PPM 3.5 damage procs should trigger at least 1 of those 30% of the time assuming 0 recharge enhancement in the power.  Decimation: Build-Up would have something like an 8-10~% chance to trigger per activation.  The floor on triggering (heh) that event chance, as pointed out by Red before, is 5%.  So even enhancing recharge to the point where it would drop the Build-Up proc chance from its native rate to less than 5% will still yield 5%.  Then the Chuck Lots Of Dice™ method of using this attack frequently gives you more opportunities over time to try and get the event to happen.  Powers like Executioner's Shot, Dual Wield, or even Suppressive Fire all have 1.848 second Arcanatime animations.  It isn't that hard to get Pistols to recharge within that time frame and you can skip Hasten to do it too.  How fast you want to hammer out powers like Piercing Rounds or Executioner's Shot become the guiding lights on where your final recharge needs to be.  Obviously, that ignores other core powers like Overgrowth where you may want it to be active as close to perma as feasible.

All of that is exactly why I use Pistols between each attack and it is also why I put it in this thread here.  The Defender has the opportunity to make use of multiple sequence types depending on how you're approaching the slotting and what the goals are. 

 

Also, in other words, the Build-Up proc in Pistols is worth it and it doesn't matter much if you enhance its recharge.  So that's an option to run 5 pc Decimation for a recharge bonus OR just frankenslot the hell out of it.  Nature can cover you on endurance costs and to hit if you can get Overgrowth on all the time. I was toying with ideas on this last night since the pairing is really interesting. 😉

 

Edit: Some more food for thought.  On the 3 characters I mentioned before these run either Musculature Core (Sentinel) or Intuition Radial (Defender and Corr).  In all cases 3 slots are devoted to granting me enough accuracy to guarantee hitting +4's even in exemplar content and some slight endurance modification to reduce costs.  My damage modifier on my Sentinel in all of my attacks with procs is still 132%.  With Pistols having a rough 30% chance to proc on a PPM 3.5 proc that's still adding an average 20 pts of damage per attack.  That's pretty considerable damage given the baseline of the power itself while also having the option to meet or exceed ED in damage modification with the right Alpha Incarnate. 

I also checked my Defender and I did change my split slots on the ATO to just parking them in Empty Clips and Bullet Rain.  I have another 5x set in Piercing Rounds and Hail of Bullets.  On my Defender I only have 2 frankenslotted powers (Pistols and Executioner's Shot) as Dual Wield is a coin toss power for me.  I leverage Piercing Rounds for the debuff more than I care about personal DPS. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by oldskool

[Erydanus]

I actually did a quick & dirty respec last night at 40 because I just could not take not having knockback protection and had to put in combat jumping and a karma to deal with that and fiddled a lot of slots around to do some live experimenting.

 

It was pretty monstery tbh. Even just thrown together with a lot of cheap filler. I ended up with an extra slot in Pistols and just shoved in a Lady Grey I had for now. It actually fired more than I thought it would but I'm still not sure if it's more bang for the buck than just slotting a generic damage IO would. (The only recharge in it is the 1/2 recharge from Vigilant Asault recharge/absorb proc).  I just find I don't use pistols until "bigger" attacks have been used, at least while teaming. In other words instead of using pistol as a filler attack I'm more likely to use it on the 1 guy smart enough to run away when everything else is dead and even then only if executioner's is not up. The character is 40 and it was actually my first chance to use his nuke, now fully slotted with Defender's Bastion. I was playing with 2 friends who are quite casual and honestly I was shredding everything.

 

You know when I put this build together it was based on a pun and a concept. I had been playing a MM with Nature and I thought the set was so powerful I wanted to see the full horror of a defender using it. So I think I had been looking over the pools and I lit up on the name Field Medic, because the guy is literally healing people with a field of grass. From the there the concept was obvious: an army medic using special equipment. Bam! That means he's probably using guns. I had been wanting to play DP again and it seemed like I could fire and forget a lot of the nature powers and then entertain myself enjoying the gunkata-inspired animations of dual pistols. (I did consider the other gun sets for like 0.5 seconds.)

 

So, uh, I totally did not clock to the synergistic elements of this combo! I thought it might be a little discordant since the buffs are PBAOE and the direct heal is a cone but actually the mix of aoe and cone in both sets meshes well. Nature's Entangling Aura is insane now that I have a lockdown proc in it. The minion lockdown rate was good before but I swear every few seconds I'm surrounded by mobs in electric cages from the proc stacking. I also have 2 psionic damage procs in it which I assume are shredding things but I haven't looked at the combat log in detail. But it's quite easy to wade in to melee and drop my buffs point blank on the melee if they need them, and my nuke is PBAOE as well but it's pretty safe for me to just jump in and do Hail of Bullets. 

 

As far as direct damage, well overgrowth + power build up + I put the Gaussian's proc in power build up, so I'm dropping the nuke at 272% damage enhancement, it's just utterly rude. I'll have to do a few tip missions to get a feel for how he's doing now; I suspect it's a combo of slots being increased plus a few more procs added in. 

[Pzn]

Thanks for making this thread.  I made a nature/pistols right after reading it.  I finished his build last week and I'm really enjoying it.  Soft cap s/l, 33-58% resistance to all damage types, and over 2k HP when you add the +absorb from wild bastion.  It feels like I'm playing a tank.

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Nature Affinity
Secondary Power Set: Dual Pistols
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Corrosive Enzymes -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Pistols -- Dmg-I(A), Dmg-I(3), GldJvl-Dam%(3), ShlBrk-%Dam(5), TchofLadG-%Dam(5), AchHee-ResDeb%(7)
Level 2: Regrowth -- Pnc-Heal/Rchg(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(11), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(13), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(13), Pnc-Heal(15)
Level 4: Wild Growth -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(15), UnbGrd-Max HP%(17)
Level 6: Empty Clips -- HO:Centri(A), ImpSwf-Dam%(17), PstBls-Dam%(19), ExpStr-Dam%(19), TchofLadG-%Dam(21), AchHee-ResDeb%(21)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(23), Rct-ResDam%(23)
Level 10: Swap Ammo
Level 12: Wild Bastion -- Pnc-Heal/Rchg(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(25), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(25), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(27), Pnc-Heal(27)
Level 14: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(29), Ksm-ToHit+(42)
Level 16: Spore Cloud -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Bullet Rain -- Rgn-Dmg(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(29), JvlVll-Dam%(31), ExpStr-Dam%(31), ImpSwf-Dam%(31), PstBls-Dam%(33)
Level 20: Boxing -- AbsAmz-Stun/Rchg(A), AbsAmz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(33), AbsAmz-Acc/Rchg(33), AbsAmz-Stun(34), AbsAmz-EndRdx/Stun(34)
Level 22: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 26: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(36), StdPrt-ResKB(36), ResDam-I(36)
Level 28: Executioner's Shot -- Apc-Dmg(A), ImpSwf-Dam%(37), Apc-Dam%(37), GldJvl-Dam%(37), TchofLadG-%Dam(39), ExpStr-Dam%(39)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(39)
Level 32: Overgrowth -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(40), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 38: Hail of Bullets -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg(A), ScrDrv-Dmg/Rchg(42), ImpSwf-Dam%(42), Erd-%Dam(43), Arm-Dam%(43), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(43)
Level 41: Entangling Aura -- UnbCns-Acc/Hold/Rchg(A), UnbCns-Acc/Rchg(45), UnbCns-Hold/Rchg(45), UnbCns-Hold(45), UnbCns-EndRdx/Hold(50)
Level 44: Piercing Rounds -- SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(46), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(48), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 47: Dual Wield -- SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(48), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(50), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(50)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Hct-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), Hct-Acc/Rchg(9), Hct-Dmg(9), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(11)
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
Level 10: Chemical Ammunition
Level 10: Cryo Ammunition
Level 10: Incendiary Ammunition
Level 50: Clarion Core Epiphany
------------



 

 

Only difference between this and my current build is the proc choices.  The last update released a new damage proc for targeted AoEs (bombardment chance for fire) so I replaced the lethal damage proc in bullet rain and one of the smashing damage procs in empty clips.

Edited April 7, 2020 by josh1622

[Erydanus]

I'm glad I inspired you to try out a fun build!!

 

It's a very survivable build just with the primary buffs. I don't play at higher difficulty (usually) so I didn't bother with tough & weave.  I got to 50 and am working on incarnates, I want to get Clarion before I fiddle with my build further. (Note that I did crank up the spawn size for that Fake Nem farming mission in Pandora's Box and it was no prob. I just tend to want to bang out more missions faster on this guy.)

 

I took power build up and stuck a Gaussian's buildup proc in it so if I want to do damage the combination of Vigilance + Assault + Overgrowth + Power Build Up + Gaussian's Proc = 300% damage buff, which is capped. If I unload the T9 pistol attack in that 5 second window, almost everything dies and if it doesn't the T9 comes with a defense buff which is power boosted anyway. Most of my attacks are slotted for about 66% damage and 2 procs so anything I use in that window is really pretty insane.  I also took Force of Nature as an ohshit power because it just fit thematically with me too.

 

I see you didn't have room for suppressive fire. Too bad, it's really insane. I have 3 procs in it (and there's a 4th I could get if I move a slot) and they all fire almost every time. With my global recharge and haste I think the power's up every 10 seconds or so and deals 5+ (3x70 proc damage) which makes it one of my highest if not the highest DPA power I have. (I could probably stick more procs in, I've made more money since then....)

 

Oh yeah some friends were on and were kinda jaw dropped at how powerful the team became when I joined them. They had been duoing without a support character. Bwahaha.

[Pzn]

5 hours ago, Erydanus said:

I'm glad I inspired you to try out a fun build!!

 

It's a very survivable build just with the primary buffs. I don't play at higher difficulty (usually) so I didn't bother with tough & weave.  I got to 50 and am working on incarnates, I want to get Clarion before I fiddle with my build further. (Note that I did crank up the spawn size for that Fake Nem farming mission in Pandora's Box and it was no prob. I just tend to want to bang out more missions faster on this guy.)

 

I took power build up and stuck a Gaussian's buildup proc in it so if I want to do damage the combination of Vigilance + Assault + Overgrowth + Power Build Up + Gaussian's Proc = 300% damage buff, which is capped. If I unload the T9 pistol attack in that 5 second window, almost everything dies and if it doesn't the T9 comes with a defense buff which is power boosted anyway. Most of my attacks are slotted for about 66% damage and 2 procs so anything I use in that window is really pretty insane.  I also took Force of Nature as an ohshit power because it just fit thematically with me too.

 

I see you didn't have room for suppressive fire. Too bad, it's really insane. I have 3 procs in it (and there's a 4th I could get if I move a slot) and they all fire almost every time. With my global recharge and haste I think the power's up every 10 seconds or so and deals 5+ (3x70 proc damage) which makes it one of my highest if not the highest DPA power I have. (I could probably stick more procs in, I've made more money since then....)

 

Oh yeah some friends were on and were kinda jaw dropped at how powerful the team became when I joined them. They had been duoing without a support character. Bwahaha.

Even with 5 damage procs in it (including a purple) it's still lower DPA than proc'd out pistols and executioners shot.  Pistols and executioner's shot alone don't make up a complete attack chain but I fill in the gaps with either empty clips/bullet rain or envenomed daggers depending on the target.  I would have liked to fit suppressive fire in the build but I couldn't manage to without sacrificing something else I wanted more.

 

You should mess around with procs in hail of bullets if you haven't yet.  You can make a defender nuke hit more like a blaster nuke.  And the proc damage happens as soon as you click it so lots of mobs will die instantly instead of attacking you during the long animation.

 

Self capping your damage sounds fun.  I went with mace mastery just for the survivability.  If power build up affected any of the nature buffs I would have definitely went that way.  Force of nature is just too perfect.

Edited April 7, 2020 by josh1622

[Xandyr]

On 3/11/2020 at 11:01 AM, Erydanus said:

I The weird thing about pistols that I discovered this week when I went onto the beta server is that apparently all the procs that are eligible to be slotted into the attacks are eligible to fire regardless of if swap ammo is used, and that I just did not expect.  I was literally seeing Lady Grey's chance for negative energy damage firing off and thought, "Oh I meant to test the slow damage proc first with cold rounds … wait I am using chemical rounds right now..." and yeah I was seeing procs from knockback, defense debuff, and slow sets all firing with chemical rounds on, or off, or with other elements selected.  So I'm just assuming everything valid actually does function. I guess my assumption was that the pistol powers would work like pets where procs only function when the pet uses the appropriate power; but in this case it seems like swap ammo is just selectively activating bonus perks and the procs are going off the base powers all the time. 

 

 

 So, you can confirm, on the Live servers, that any Procs that can be slotted will fire, REGARDLESS of which Swap Ammo/Round you're using?

This might make me do a respect. I was thinking that the Touch Of Lady Grey would only fire when "standard" ammo is used. If I am using Cold or Fire Ammo, and that Proc will STILL have the chance to fire.....this might be a game changer for me...

  On a side note, has anyone tested to see if it's actually worth slotting the Procs? Does the chance of damage/debuff/etc outweigh damage you would get by just slotting another IO?

[Redlynne]

On 4/10/2020 at 4:43 PM, Xandyr said:

So, you can confirm, on the Live servers, that any Procs that can be slotted will fire, REGARDLESS of which Swap Ammo/Round you're using?

Yes.

On 4/10/2020 at 4:43 PM, Xandyr said:

This might make me do a respect. I was thinking that the Touch Of Lady Grey would only fire when "standard" ammo is used. If I am using Cold or Fire Ammo, and that Proc will STILL have the chance to fire.....this might be a game changer for me...

On a side note, has anyone tested to see if it's actually worth slotting the Procs? Does the chance of damage/debuff/etc outweigh damage you would get by just slotting another IO?

Well, Time Stop is a known proc monster power, provided you don't slot (much) recharge reduction into it.

 

3.5 * ((16 / ( 1 + 20.67 / 100 )) + 2.17) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000))) = 89.997853% @ 20.67 recharge reduction slotted.

 

So what happens with Suppressive Fire, which can slot all the same Hold damage procs (plus a few more sets)?

 

3.5 * ((20 / ( 1 + 45.37 / 100 )) + 1.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000))) = 89. 996648% @ 45.37% recharge reduction slotted.

 

Hmmm ... you can put more recharge enhancement into Suppressive Fire (hello Entomb proc) and still achieve a 90% proc chance on 3.5 PPM damage procs slotted into Suppressive Fire.

4x 71.75 = 287 damage when 4 damage procs hit, which is 2.88x the damage production of Executioner's Shot (and is 2.16x the damage production of Executioner's Shot if only 3 out of 4 damage procs hit for 71.75 each).

 

Hmmm.  I might need to do a respec of my own Dual Pistols build now ...

 

 

 

And ... yes I am going to need to look at doing a respec of my own Time/Dual Pistols/Soul build.

This is yet another example of how asking the right question(s) can sometimes lead to new discoveries.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Redlynne

[Xandyr]

On 4/10/2020 at 6:04 PM, Redlynne said:

Yes.

Well, Time Stop is a known proc monster power, provided you don't slot (much) endurance reduction into it.

 

3.5 * ((16 / ( 1 + 20.67 / 100 )) + 2.17) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000))) = 89.997853% @ 20.67 recharge reduction slotted.

 

So what happens with Suppressive Fire, which can slot all the same Hold damage procs (plus a few more sets)?

 

3.5 * ((20 / ( 1 + 45.37 / 100 )) + 1.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000))) = 89. 996648% @ 45.37% recharge reduction slotted.

 

Hmmm ... you can put more recharge enhancement into Suppressive Fire (hello Entomb proc) and still achieve a 90% proc chance on 3.5 PPM damage procs slotted into Suppressive Fire.

4x 71.75 = 287 damage when 4 damage procs hit, which is 2.88x the damage production of Executioner's Shot (and is 2.16x the damage production of Executioner's Shot if only 3 out of 4 damage procs hit for 71.75 each).

 

Hmmm.  I might need to do a respec of my own Dual Pistols build now ...

 

 

 

And ... yes I am going to need to look at doing a respec of my own Time/Dual Pistols/Soul build.

This is yet another example of how asking the right question(s) can sometimes lead to new discoveries.

 Glad I could help get some more thoughts planted into your brain lol. I'm actually a Dark/DP/Psychic Defender. I went Psychic just for the extra hold. I have -to hit debuff( -29.53% from Darkest Night), Fearsome Stare, 2 Holds (Petrifying Gaze and Dominate...not to mention the control/soft control that Dark Servant brings to the table) and 2 of my attacks have Devastation: Chance to Hold. I sometimes feel like I'm a controller with all the holds/controls. It comes in handy. 

[oldskool]

On 4/10/2020 at 5:43 PM, Xandyr said:

 So, you can confirm, on the Live servers, that any Procs that can be slotted will fire, REGARDLESS of which Swap Ammo/Round you're using?

I can confirm this too.  Not only they can be slotted, but they also fire off regardless of ammo type.  

I've been running procs in pistol powers since last Summer.

[Deadshot7]

Besides DP, what other set(s) can capitalize the most on Force Feedback's Recharge? I would like to make a magic themed Nature/ hero but without guns.

 

Proc Gurus - I seek your guidance (and ask you to please be gentle). I have been reading @Redlynne's  Time/DP Bullet Time Prayers build, but I don't fully understand the math....yet. It appears that Empty Clips' 10 second recharge = 18.13% change (per target?).

 

For example, Water has 2 attacks--and these don't require slotting KB->KD conversion. The recharge of one (Geyser) is long. So if Water Burst has a 16 second recharge, I presume the probability is a little higher than Empty Clips? And Geyser will have a quite high chance? How many procs are needed for perma Hasten and/or perma (nearly) Overgrowth, and can you get multiple procs from one AOE attack (i.e. is the check done per target and can fire for all that proc)?

 

Are there other powersets you could recommend? Like is water good? Are there others? And for power sets that only have 1 KB type ability (e.g. Dark's Torrent or Sonic's Shockwave), is 1 attack not going to be not enough? And if yes, would working in Wall of Force (with Weaken Resolve and Mighty Leap) fill in that gap?

Thanks!

[Darkir]

56 minutes ago, Deadshot7 said:

Besides DP, what other set(s) can capitalize the most on Force Feedback's Recharge?

As your other questions suggest, water is the answer to this.

 

56 minutes ago, Deadshot7 said:

And Geyser will have a quite high chance? How many procs are needed for perma Hasten and/or perma (nearly) Overgrowth, and can you get multiple procs from one AOE attack (i.e. is the check done per target and can fire for all that proc)?

1. Yes.

 

2. For hasten you need an average recharge of about 290-310%, you can get about 95-105% from enhancements (more with an alpha but that will hurt proc chances elsewhere, and the rest will come from set bonuses and 70% from hasten itself. For overgrowth it's a lot, getting overgrowth to about a 65-70 second recharge is relatively easy, getting it to be perma is quite difficult, even with FF procs (assuming you want decent defenses too).

 

3. No matter how many targets are checked for the proc, you will only ever get one +100% recharge buff for 5 seconds. But in 5 seconds you can use another water burst to refresh it.

 

 

Water is a fantastic powerset, good ST, very good AOE, and a heal. My only complaint is that it isn't fire, but it has a heal so I'm ok with it.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Darkir

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Deadshot7 said:

I would like to make a magic themed Nature/ hero but without guns.

In that case, you're wanting a combination of Nature Affinity and Water Blast ... or Ice Manipulation and Water Blast.

 

This might help you decide ...

[Deadshot7]

Thanks, @Darkirand @Redlynne. Presumably, Energy would work, too (@Sir MyshkinMad King), except it has 1 AOE and multiple single targets.

 

As to my other question---would a 1 KB set like Dark + Wall of Force do the job?

[Darkir]

40 minutes ago, Deadshot7 said:

As to my other question---would a 1 KB set like Dark + Wall of Force do the job?

Sorry, remind me, what is the job we are trying to accomplish? A mage themed nature toon without guns? Go water/nature. Are we trying to get perma overgrowth? This will be difficult if we want more defenses than just s/l. 

 

If you want the most recharge procs, dp is the way to go, barring that, water. Dark will not help you get more recharge than water and water will do more damage. Dark has -tohit, but I am not a fan of debuffing my way to the -acc cap, you can't always hit everyone or another mob aggros, leaving you on the floor looking foolish. That being said, I really like -tohit as a way of protecting my team, I just don't think it works well to protect me. This may be a play style thing, as I like being in the fray on all my toons and I've always found it faster than the alternatives. I've never been able to clear missions or farms faster hover blasting for example, I've found being in the middle has always given faster times even though hover blasting builds typically have more recharge than M/R def toons.

[War_L0ck]

26 minutes ago, Darkir said:

Sorry, remind me, what is the job we are trying to accomplish? A mage themed nature toon without guns? Go water/nature. Are we trying to get perma overgrowth? This will be difficult if we want more defenses than just s/l. 

 

If you want the most recharge procs, dp is the way to go, barring that, water. Dark will not help you get more recharge than water and water will do more damage. Dark has -tohit, but I am not a fan of debuffing my way to the -acc cap, you can't always hit everyone or another mob aggros, leaving you on the floor looking foolish. That being said, I really like -tohit as a way of protecting my team, I just don't think it works well to protect me. This may be a play style thing, as I like being in the fray on all my toons and I've always found it faster than the alternatives. I've never been able to clear missions or farms faster hover blasting for example, I've found being in the middle has always given faster times even though hover blasting builds typically have more recharge than M/R def toons.

My take was the "job" was to answer which powersets work with Force Feedback (in addition to DP) to get recharge low enough for near perma Overgrowth (and still have room for good defenses). And for those powersets that only have 1 AOE that can take FF, can Wall of Force be used to get another FF into the build to hit the number of procs needed.

 

Water--as was answered by both you and Redlynne--is a good option out of the box. The followup was to again ask if Sonic or Dark (that each only have 1 power that takes FF) could use Wall of Force to get more FF into the build--presumably because bonus -resist or -to hit would be a great team support debuffs. We all know a lot of Defenders do like to take Sonic.

Edited May 22, 2020 by War_L0ck

[Darkir]

52 minutes ago, War_L0ck said:

The followup was to again ask if Sonic or Dark (that each only have 1 power that takes FF) could use Wall of Force to get more FF into the build--presumably because bonus -resist or -to hit would be a great team support debuffs. We all know a lot of Defenders do like to take Sonic.

Ah, ok. Well, wall of force will proc FF, but not at the rate of water burst (10 second recharge vs water burst's 16 second recharge). Shockwave has the same problem, it's 8 second recharge is not ideal for proccing FF either. Compare this to Water burst's 16 second recharge (it goes down to about 4 seconds) and geyser's 125 recharge (which you can get down to a little more or a little less than 30 seconds depending on recharge). So it will work to replace it to some extent, but not that well. Another problem is getting the same overall recharge and still getting to the def softcap without combat jumping/stealth/hover. Defense powers serve as a kind of double use in today's IO world, you get recharge and defense out of them (7.5% for LoTG or 5% for red fortune 5 slotted or both for 12.5%). So I would say shockwave and wall of force are poor FF proc replacements for water's options.

[Deadshot7]

@DarkirThank you for your answer.

 

I found this Nature/Water build you posted back in October of last year. Would you still recommend it? I don't know what all might have changed since, but I think about patches sometimes having an impact on build viability (like Darkness Affinity losing Power Boost on Fade).

[Darkir]

41 minutes ago, Deadshot7 said:

@DarkirThank you for your answer.

 

I found this Nature/Water build you posted back in October of last year. Would you still recommend it? I don't know what all might have changed since, but I think about patches sometimes having an impact on build viability (like Darkness Affinity losing Power Boost on Fade).

Yes, with some slight changes.

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.1.15
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Science Defender
Primary Power Set: Nature Affinity
Secondary Power Set: Water Blast
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Dark Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Corrosive Enzymes -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Aqua Bolt -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(3), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(3), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(25)
Level 2: Regrowth -- Heal-I(A)
Level 4: Water Burst -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(7), FrcFdb-Rechg%(7)
Level 6: Wild Growth -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(9), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), UnbGrd-Max HP%(15), GldArm-3defTpProc(17), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(17)
Level 8: Lifegiving Spores -- Heal-I(A)
Level 10: Whirlpool -- Artl-Acc/Dam(A), Artl-Dam/End(11), Artl-Dam/Rech(11), Artl-Acc/Dam/Rech(13), Artl-Acc/Rech/Rng(13), Artl-End/Rech/Rng(15)
Level 12: Wild Bastion -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(19), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(19), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(21), NmnCnv-Heal(21), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(23)
Level 14: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(34), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(50)
Level 16: Tidal Forces -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(33), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(33), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(33), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(34), GssSynFr--Build%(34)
Level 18: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Dehydrate -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(43), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 22: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(23), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(27), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(25)
Level 26: Entangling Aura -- Lck-%Hold(A)
Level 28: Water Jet -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(29), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(31)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 32: Overgrowth -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 35: Dark Consumption -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(36), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(37), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Obl-%Dam(40)
Level 38: Geyser -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(39), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(39), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(40), FrcFdb-Rechg%(40)
Level 41: Dark Embrace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(42), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(42), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 44: Soul Drain -- SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(46), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(46)
Level 47: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(48)
Level 49: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(50)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(48)
Level 1: Combo Level 1 
Level 1: Combo Level 2 
Level 1: Combo Level 3 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
------------

 

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[War_L0ck]

Question about Lifegiving Spores, I notice youj(nor RedLynne in her Mind over Vegetables Build) slot end modification into it. Is it really that bad? Because usually Endurance Giving abilities are a good thing (one of the reasons I like playing Electric Affinity).

[Redlynne]

22 minutes ago, War_L0ck said:

Question about Lifegiving Spores, I notice youj(nor RedLynne in her Mind over Vegetables Build) slot end modification into it. Is it really that bad? Because usually Endurance Giving abilities are a good thing (one of the reasons I like playing Electric Affinity).

In my case, the reason for the slotting in the Mind Over Vegetable(s) build was to put the Panacea Proc into it (because that will proc boost everyone buffed by the power!) while also scoring the full 6-slot set bonus into the bargain.  That's why I didn't put any Endurance Modification into the power.  Besides, in most scenarios (not all, granted, but most) it's more valuable to have stronger healing/regeneration in a power like Lifegiving Spores than endurance modification, simply because under most scenarios people have "solved" their endurance issues and there are relatively few NPCs that will drain it (Malta Sappers being merely one of the more notable exceptions).  Conversely, healing/regeneration is almost always useful, whether soloing or in groups, as a way of mitigating incoming damage (which tends to happen, even when playing City of Statues).

 

So to summarize, the "need" for endurance recovery boosting is often times not as ... pressing ... as the need for healing/regeneration can tend to be.