Mastermind Question

[hyacathinose]

Guys I am running Thugs/FF, but may switch to Thugs/Dark for the extra pet...

 

Should I slot 4-5 of these entire sets, or just slot my gang war slot with the resistance/defense auras from the individual sets, sacrificing the set bonuses completely...?

 

Call to Arms. Expedient Reinforcement. Sovereign Right. Command of the Mastermind. Mark of Supremacy. Edict of the Master

 

Which option would be better?

[TheSpiritFox]

For thugs I would recommend the following slotting. 

 

T1 Thugs - 5 slot with one pet set and drop a second pet unique into the last slot for 2 defensive uniques

 

Enforcers - 3 slot hamidon acc/damage 1 LOTG +def/Global Recharge or defense IO, 2 defense debuff damage procs (enforcers do nuts proc damage)

 

Bruiser - 5 slot with pet set with pet def unique, soulbound allegiance damage proc

 

Gang war - 3 pet def uniques, 2 50+5 recharge IOs, Overwhelming force KB proc. 

 

This fits all the pet uniques into the build. You sacrifice a bit of set bonuses to make your pets pretty tanky. 30% base resistance for all of them, 10% melee/ranged defense and 20% aoe defense, gang war recharges fast, and overwhelming force KD proc makes it useful as something other than an aggro/damage sponge. Enforcers do nuts DPS with procs, 4 of their attacks can proc the 2 damage procs you put in them and each attack has a different proc counter on it so they proc ALOT. 

 

With that setup your thugs should be able to do some nuts damage while being strong defensively. Match it with dark or any defense based secondary and you should be able to softcap them all. This is the slotting I have with my thugs/time and they're all softcapped to all positions so long as they're in range of me and the enforcers and pretty damn sturdy, 30% resistance even on your T1s makes them very rarely get one shot and the bruiser has his own resistance so he's actually really goddamn tanky after that. 

[hyacathinose]

1 hour ago, TheSpiritFox said:

For thugs I would recommend the following slotting. 

 

T1 Thugs - 5 slot with one pet set and drop a second pet unique into the last slot for 2 defensive uniques

 

Enforcers - 3 slot hamidon acc/damage 1 LOTG +def/Global Recharge or defense IO, 2 defense debuff damage procs (enforcers do nuts proc damage)

 

Bruiser - 5 slot with pet set with pet def unique, soulbound allegiance damage proc

 

Gang war - 3 pet def uniques, 2 50+5 recharge IOs, Overwhelming force KB proc. 

 

This fits all the pet uniques into the build. You sacrifice a bit of set bonuses to make your pets pretty tanky. 30% base resistance for all of them, 10% melee/ranged defense and 20% aoe defense, gang war recharges fast, and overwhelming force KD proc makes it useful as something other than an aggro/damage sponge. Enforcers do nuts DPS with procs, 4 of their attacks can proc the 2 damage procs you put in them and each attack has a different proc counter on it so they proc ALOT. 

 

With that setup your thugs should be able to do some nuts damage while being strong defensively. Match it with dark or any defense based secondary and you should be able to softcap them all. This is the slotting I have with my thugs/time and they're all softcapped to all positions so long as they're in range of me and the enforcers and pretty damn sturdy, 30% resistance even on your T1s makes them very rarely get one shot and the bruiser has his own resistance so he's actually really goddamn tanky after that. 

Could you tell me the exact name of all the enhancements? When I search hamidon in auction house I'm only seeing salvage materials, not enhancements?

[plainguy]

This what I am considering.. 

I have a modified version of this build but on a defense cap semi petless masterind ( just the last Pet ). 

 

I am more of a defense cap player. 

Its Range capped.

Darkest night will help you get the melee and aoe defenses very close to Defense cap.  Incarnates will cap you out if you go support.

I did like the gang war slotting from TheSpiritFox so made the changes. Much more recharge.

 

Oppressive Gloom is helpful in keeping mobs stunned when your in the mix. 

How I would start off with fearsome stare followed by Darkest Night on Boss mob as my anchor, then Petrify Gaze on that boss. 

I might Howling Twilight for another stun. 

Tar patch to try to keep them together. 

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Dark Miasma
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Thugs -- BldMnd-Acc/Dmg(A), BldMnd-Dmg/EndRdx(3), BldMnd-Acc/EndRdx(3), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), BldMnd-Acc(5), BldMnd-Dmg(7)
Level 1: Twilight Grasp -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(45), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(46), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(46), NmnCnv-Heal(50), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(50)
Level 2: Tar Patch -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Darkest Night -- CldSns-ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(43), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(43), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(45), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(46), CldSns-%Dam(48)
Level 6: Equip Thugs -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Maneuvers -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(9), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(9), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(11), RedFrt-Def(11), RedFrt-EndRdx(17)
Level 10: Howling Twilight -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Call Enforcer -- BldMnd-Dmg(A), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg(13), BldMnd-Dmg/EndRdx(13), BldMnd-Acc/EndRdx(15), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), BldMnd-Acc(17)
Level 14: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(27), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(29), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(29), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(31), GssSynFr--Build%(31)
Level 16: Shadow Fall -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(23), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(25), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(25), RctArm-EndRdx/Rchg(27), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 18: Gang War -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19), SvrRgh-PetResDam(19), EdcoftheM-PetDef(21), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(21), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(23)
Level 20: Fearsome Stare -- Ngh-Acc/Rchg(A), Ngh-EndRdx/Fear(48), Ngh-Acc/EndRdx(48), Ngh-Fear/Rng(50)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 24: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel(34)
Level 26: Call Bruiser -- SprMarofS-Dmg(A), SprMarofS-Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg(33), SprMarofS-Acc/EndRdx(33), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(34), SlbAll-Build%(34)
Level 28: Petrifying Gaze -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(37), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(40), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(40)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(36), LucoftheG-Def(37), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(37)
Level 32: Upgrade Equipment -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Night Fall -- Empty(A), Empty(40)
Level 38: Dark Servant -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(39), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(39), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(39)
Level 41: Dark Embrace -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(42), RctArm-EndRdx/Rchg(42), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42), RctArm-ResDam(43)
Level 44: Oppressive Gloom -- Empty(A), Empty(45)
Level 47: Burnout -- Empty(A)
Level 49: [Empty] 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A), Empty(36)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A), Empty(7)
Level 1: Punk 
Level 1: Arsonist 
Level 12: Enforcer 
Level 26: Bruiser 
------------

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Edited March 20, 2020 by plainguy

[TheSpiritFox]

8 hours ago, hyacathinose said:

Could you tell me the exact name of all the enhancements? When I search hamidon in auction house I'm only seeing salvage materials, not enhancements?

lol hold on lemme go log in

 

Alright its like nucleus exposure? Easiest way to find it is in the actual menus. Go to enhancements on the left side, then scroll to special enhancements (4th category). They're for level 50s so before that either put in a cheap set or just like 1 acc 2 damage IOs until then. 

[hyacathinose]

1 hour ago, TheSpiritFox said:

lol hold on lemme go log in

 

Alright its like nucleus exposure? Easiest way to find it is in the actual menus. Go to enhancements on the left side, then scroll to special enhancements (4th category). They're for level 50s so before that either put in a cheap set or just like 1 acc 2 damage IOs until then. 

Thanks!

 

Could you help me out with one more thing?

[TheSpiritFox]

1 hour ago, hyacathinose said:

Thanks!

 

Could you help me out with one more thing?

?

[hyacathinose]

1 hour ago, TheSpiritFox said:

?

Help me come up with a Beast/Kinetics build with good defense, resist, and healing of my pets? (Idc about damage.)

[TheSpiritFox]

8 minutes ago, hyacathinose said:

Help me come up with a Beast/Kinetics build with good defense, resist, and healing of my pets? (Idc about damage.)

 

Aww post a thread about that. Kinetics is one of the sets I don't fuck with with MMs because most of what it does doesn't benefit pets. It's a below average MM secondary choice and works better on Corrs and Defenders which get higher buff/debuff numbers. There's no way to get beast/kin to good defense numbers, beasts don't have good innate resistance like demons do, demons/kin would be a better overall choice but even that isn't great. Healing would be ok, melee pets with a melee range heal. 

 

I'd have to figure it out from scratch cause I've never fucked with either beasts or kinetics. But I will tell you it will be a bitch of a build to make, because beast NEEDS it's personal attacks to perform fully and there are a limited number of sets which are actually good to take personal attacks with. Beast/traps would be a decent choice, beast/time would probably be your best overall bet. 

[hyacathinose]

1 minute ago, TheSpiritFox said:

 

Aww post a thread about that. Kinetics is one of the sets I don't fuck with with MMs because most of what it does doesn't benefit pets. It's a below average MM secondary choice and works better on Corrs and Defenders which get higher buff/debuff numbers. There's no way to get beast/kin to good defense numbers, beasts don't have good innate resistance like demons do, demons/kin would be a better overall choice but even that isn't great. Healing would be ok, melee pets with a melee range heal. 

 

I'd have to figure it out from scratch cause I've never fucked with either beasts or kinetics. But I will tell you it will be a bitch of a build to make, because beast NEEDS it's personal attacks to perform fully and there are a limited number of sets which are actually good to take personal attacks with. Beast/traps would be a decent choice, beast/time would probably be your best overall bet. 

Would beasts/ice be any good?

[TheSpiritFox]

Just now, hyacathinose said:

Would beasts/ice be any good?

It would be pretty solid, the one issue beast/ice is going to have is healing. Aid pool would be necessary and beasts are not the most durable of MM pets to begin with. Without an AOE heal of some kind it'll be hard to keep your pets alive all the time especially in any higher level content, cold has no heal at all. Great buff/debuff, but not a single healing power in the set. 

[hyacathinose]

Just now, TheSpiritFox said:

It would be pretty solid, the one issue beast/ice is going to have is healing. Aid pool would be necessary and beasts are not the most durable of MM pets to begin with. Without an AOE heal of some kind it'll be hard to keep your pets alive all the time especially in any higher level content, cold has no heal at all. Great buff/debuff, but not a single healing power in the set. 

What about beasts/dark? I think that had both defense aura, debuffs, and healing in it, not 100% sure though.

Edited March 21, 2020 by hyacathinose

[TheSpiritFox]

1 hour ago, hyacathinose said:

What about beasts/dark? I think that had both defense aura, debuffs, and healing in it, not 100% sure though.

Beasts/dark would be a solid choice in part because dark is such a badass secondary. It's got an amazing aoe heal, it's got heavy debuffs to help keep any pets alive, its got an aoe stealth that helps you manage aggro. It's got more debuffs coming from a pet stacking massive -tohit and a ton of -damage. 

 

Dark, time, and traps are my 3 top teir sets for MMs tbh. Nature is very close but being very healing focused is more support than debuff and dark, traps, and time all focus more on buff/debuff than healing. 

[Force Redux]

Kinetix works well with beasts. Beast can self pump up  defence to soft cap levels. Only primary that can do it.

 

I'll try to post a build later this week.

[BGSacho]

Here's how I start off slotting Thugs:

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 49 Technology Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Time Manipulation

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Thugs -- MarofSpr-Acc/EndRdx(A), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(3), SprMarofS-Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg(5), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(5), ExpStr-Dam%(7)
Level 1: Time Crawl -- Empty(A)
Level 2: [Empty] 
Level 4: [Empty] 
Level 6: [Empty] 
Level 8: [Empty] 
Level 10: [Empty] 
Level 12: Call Enforcer -- MarofSpr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprMarofS-Dmg(13), HO:Cyto(13), ShlBrk-%Dam(15), AchHee-ResDeb%(15), TchofLadG-%Dam(17)
Level 14: [Empty] 
Level 16: [Empty] 
Level 18: Gang War -- SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), SprCmmoft-Rchg/PetAoEDef(19), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), EdcoftheM-PetDef(21), SvrRgh-PetResDam(23)
Level 20: [Empty] 
Level 22: [Empty] 
Level 24: [Empty] 
Level 26: Call Bruiser -- SlbAll-Build%(A), ExpStr-Dam%(27), CmmoftheM-Acc/Dmg(27), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx(29), SlbAll-Dmg/EndRdx(29), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(31)
Level 28: [Empty] 
Level 30: [Empty] 
Level 32: [Empty] 
Level 35: [Empty] 
Level 38: [Empty] 
Level 41: [Empty] 
Level 44: [Empty] 
Level 47: [Empty] 
Level 49: [Empty] 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Punk 
Level 1: Arsonist 
Level 12: Enforcer 
Level 26: Bruiser 
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon 
------------

The Gang War slotting is pretty much set in stone. The enforcers depend a bit on the rest of the build - if the build caps pet defense without it, I would replace the cyto with something that gives acc/dmg. You can also try to squeeze in the small res aura from expedient by dropping overwhelming force or explosive strike in thugs.

If you don't need the def/accuracy bonuses from 4-slot Supremacy, or want some extra recharge, swap the 2p Command in Bruiser with the matching 2p Supremacy in Thugs.

[Zeraphia]

On 3/20/2020 at 9:22 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

 

Aww post a thread about that. Kinetics is one of the sets I don't fuck with with MMs because most of what it does doesn't benefit pets. It's a below average MM secondary choice and works better on Corrs and Defenders which get higher buff/debuff numbers. There's no way to get beast/kin to good defense numbers, beasts don't have good innate resistance like demons do, demons/kin would be a better overall choice but even that isn't great. Healing would be ok, melee pets with a melee range heal. 

 

I'd have to figure it out from scratch cause I've never fucked with either beasts or kinetics. But I will tell you it will be a bitch of a build to make, because beast NEEDS it's personal attacks to perform fully and there are a limited number of sets which are actually good to take personal attacks with. Beast/traps would be a decent choice, beast/time would probably be your best overall bet. 

I'm about to make a thread actually on the absurd synergy of a beasts/kinetics MM. This poster is accurate for general cases, but NOT the specialized case of Beasts/Kinetics.

 

-Beasts are unique in that is is the *only* MM primary that can softcap itself. Every single pet has 11% base positional defense. Fortify Pack at 5 stacks (it is stupid easy to get 5 stacks) gets to around 23.6% and can be made permanent with high recharge (more on this later). Further, the two unique pet IO's that provide 5% defense to all, Edict of the Master and Call to Arms bring in 10% defense as well. All of this combined gives you 44.6% defense, they legitimately SOFTCAP themselves. Right off the bat, this user is completely inaccurate about defense numbers being "bad" they're actually quite exceptional and makes them able to run a secondary that does not provide defense or -to hit mitigations whatsoever. 

 

-Beasts have actually pretty nice innate resistances. 

 

Howlers (T1):

• 18% Smash/Lethal/Cold Resist

Lions + Dire Wolf (T2):

• 29% Smash/Lethal/Cold Resist

Tankiest off the bat? No, but they don't really need to be because once you slot up Increase Density you can have your pets receive 28.9% S/E resistance. You can also slot the following sets to make them tankier: Superior Mark of Supremacy (MM ATO gives 15% resistance to all), Sovereign Right (10% resistance to all), and Expedient Reinforcement (another 10% resistance to all)... That leaves them with:

T1: Psi-35% Fire-35% Cold-53% Negative-35% Toxic-35% Lethal-53% Smashing-81.9% Energy-63.9%

T2+: Psi-35% Fire-35% Cold-53% Negative-35% Toxic-35% Lethal-64% Smashing-90% (overcapped) Energy-63.9%

-Considering this is one of the few instances where the pets actually receive great Energy resistance and still manage to keep the softcap at all times, this makes this combination extremely tanky but that is not all, you also deal -dmg another form of damage mitigation beyond even just defense and resistance that works on *everything.* -15% damage in addition to all the defense and resistance... these pets are not only going to be at the damage cap permanently, they're also going to be extremely tanky. 

-The T1's are indisputable proc monsters for Achilles heel. That damage easily spreads to a mob of enemies and they have a huge amount of proc damage off of their hits, arguably better than even Thug's Enforcers. 

-This Kinetics' Speed Boost helps these wolves immensely, it allows them to very quickly run into mobs at the run speed cap and it allows them to easily receive the Fulcrum Buff. 

-The attacks Beasts offer is supplementary but VERY worth it in comparison to EVERY other primary bar absolutely none. Even Demons. The immense amount of procs they can receive and improve on the MM to help you feel more "active" is definitely no joke.

-I do not see how Demons pairs better than Wolves with Kinetics for the reasons above. Demons are quite decent, but they cannot softcap themselves in the way Fortify Pack can nor can it apply the procs with their T1's nearly as well as Beasts can. 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Zeraphia

[BGSacho]

Pets cap at 90% resistance, not at 75%. Increased Density is actually one of the best buffs for pets, mainly because it provides mez protection(KB especially). This is something interesting to think about, but the problem is Fortify Pack disables Pack Mentality, which is where Beasts get a lot of their damage.

[TheSpiritFox]

1 hour ago, BGSacho said:

Pets cap at 90% resistance, not at 75%. Increased Density is actually one of the best buffs for pets, mainly because it provides mez protection(KB especially). This is something interesting to think about, but the problem is Fortify Pack disables Pack Mentality, which is where Beasts get a lot of their damage.

Interesting back and forth. I didn't know beasts could hit those numbers defensively. At the same time I did know that fortify pack is a trade off, you ideally don't want it up all the time to maximize damage. Fulcrum shift helps and I can see why beasts is the one pet set you might actually want to use Kin on, I still just generally dislike Kin as a set tbh and would prefer almost anything else for an MM. My Kin is a Kin/Sonic defender, because if I'm going to have a Kin it's going to be one designed to get the absolute maximum out of the set and Kin/Sonic is actually a solid defender pairing both for buff/debuff and personal damage. Just a purely group oriented toon, but it's not like I have ANY trouble finding groups. 

[Zeraphia]

2 hours ago, BGSacho said:

Pets cap at 90% resistance, not at 75%. Increased Density is actually one of the best buffs for pets, mainly because it provides mez protection(KB especially). This is something interesting to think about, but the problem is Fortify Pack disables Pack Mentality, which is where Beasts get a lot of their damage.

For normal secondaries, I agree, but for Kin, because of Fulcrum Shift and their proc ability, they really don't need it at that point anymore, and it actually is very nice for the pets to be able to be shifted between doing criticals for extra damage with fulcrum shift to clear trash at an astronomically fast rate versus playing against harder content and being able to still play much harder content with still very good and speedy damage. You can legitimately pick how fast you want to play and it doesn't make too much of a drawback given a ton of the damage is in the T1 pet's absurd proc ability + fulcrum.

[BGSacho]

The problem is that it's not an astronomically faster rate. Pets by default have roughly 150% enhanced damage - ~120% from ED + Alpha Incarnate, and 25% from Supremacy. This leaves a maximum of 150% ED on top. Let's assume Fulcrum Shift is always adding that, then it is *at most* a ~60% damage increase(400% vs 250%). Then you have to factor in procs and interface, and the overall maximum number FS can contribute to pets becomes much lower. 




 

Edited March 24, 2020 by BGSacho

[Force Redux]

@Zeraphia Ty for posting, this is exactly what I wanted to share but haven't had the time to do this week 🙂🙂

[Redlynne]

On 3/24/2020 at 1:42 AM, Zeraphia said:

I'm about to make a thread actually on the absurd synergy of a beasts/kinetics MM.

Okay, now I'm going to have to find out if I can do for Beasts/Kinetics what I was able to do for Ninjas/Time ...

[Dixa]

just a heads up when talking about increased density - the mez protection is only applied to your target, the resistances is applied to target and everyone around it. it's possible to keep it up on all of your pets to keep them from being knocked around, but that's a lot of very frequent recasts. 

[tjknight]

On 3/27/2020 at 7:26 PM, Redlynne said:

Okay, now I'm going to have to find out if I can do for Beasts/Kinetics what I was able to do for Ninjas/Time ...

Hmmm...interesting.  Those posts you shared actually have me wondering if Necro/Kin might actually be comparable to Beast/Kin.  I have a Demon/Kin I lost interest in sitting in limbo, and I used Increase Density on them quite a bit. 

[Redlynne]

4 minutes ago, tjknight said:

Hmmm...interesting.  Those posts you shared actually have me wondering if Necro/Kin might actually be comparable to Beast/Kin.  I have a Demon/Kin I lost interest in sitting in limbo, and I used Increase Density on them quite a bit. 

To be fair ... _*/Kinetics Masterminds ought to be able to make use of this trick, it doesn't have to be Beasts.