It's time to recognize Domination is bad.

[tidge]

My reason, as I have stated, is to not mess with the core mechanics of the game (this is an AT inherent power, not a pool power choice)... especially when the problem as stated is straightforward to overcome. All Dominators play by the same rules. Now, why did you dodge my question?

[kenlon]

You have not asked any question for me to answer. "Stop asking me things that make me look bad when I can't answer!" is not actually a question. 😛

 

I'm perfectly willing to listen to any argument as to why having Domination work differently than every other power in the game is a good thing - I will almost certainly not agree, but I would at least think that you had some reason for wanting it.

Edited April 17, 2020 by kenlon

[Replacement]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I'm generally not a fan of extra bars, or combo-builders or anything else on the HUD that I'm supposed to pay attention to, but even so I'm less inclined to support changes to the ATs, especially for something so fundamental.  The (relatively) late brouhaha about changes to Bruising in the recent Tanker updates comes to mind. Different kettle of fish perhaps, but I still wouldn't want to poke in it.

This reads to me as "I just want things to stay the same."  Wanting to keep this game as a museum is an acceptable argument.

 

No seriously, I'm sure I haven't come off like this, but I truly feel like this would be a much better received argument.  I wish it hadn't taken you so long to get to it. 

This is why I get frustrated when I see something like this:

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I didn't miss the question, I didn't want to answer it because my reasoning isn't germaine to the beautiful metamorphosis some folks refer to as a cliff!

Which seems to me like you running out of dance floor, trying to dance around your real opposition.  It seems like it's not about any of these reasons you've put forth.  The reason you dodge our questions and ignore our solutions to the issues you raise is because you don't want solutions.

Tidge, I have to warn you that what comes after this point is not a direct indictment against you personally.  I just don't want to break this into two posts.

 

Conclusion.

Over this thread alone, I have been called petty and a liar.  I've been insinuated as lazy.  I've been called overemotional, but I've also been called disingenuous and I'm pretty sure that's because I'm filtering a lot of my emotions.

 

I have no super-secret intent, here.  I gain exactly what I said I would gain out of this: a chafe-less Dominator where I don't feel like I'm making bad decisions when I ignore global recharge.  By contrast, most of the "leave it as it is" camp has instead concern trolled or made vague excuses about what will be ruined.  After 7 pages, I've seen literally 2 good counterarguments:

 

* Current permadoms will have to start rebuilding their bar more (fixable, but curiously, no one wants to hear those solutions)

* Desire to never change anything (valid, if you'd be honest about it).

 

Who is truly being disingenuous here?

 

One other thing I've been accused of is being dismissive.  You have me dead-to-rights on that one. I don't actually like being an ass.  It's not me in real life.  But I will offer an apology on this for what it's worth.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

The reason you dodge our questions and ignore our solutions to the issues you raise is because you don't want solutions.

If you are seeking employment as a mind reader, or as just a reader, you are not demonstrating excellence.

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

Tidge, I have to warn you that what comes after this point is not a direct indictment against you personally.  I just don't want to break this into two posts.

 

Conclusion.

Over this thread alone, I have been called petty and a liar.  I've been insinuated as lazy.  I've been called overemotional, but I've also been called disingenuous and I'm pretty sure that's because I'm filtering a lot of my emotions.

You have to warn me? Am I in trouble? Is something bad going to happen to me? Is what follows an indirect indictment against me? Is it a direct indictment of me but not a personal one?  Your delivery is really uneven. Sometimes it really is better not to put in writing everything you are thinking.

 

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, and I didn't see a lot of those accusations in this thread. (I'm pretty sure it was someone named "jranger" that was called lazy.) You probably could sit out this thread for a while and feel a little better about things. Roll up a new toon go hunt kill skulz.  At the risk of upsetting you further, before returning to the thread maybe you should spend some time googling logical fallacies, starting with the "double-barrelled question" and "false dichotomy".

[Naraka]

On 4/16/2020 at 8:17 PM, kenlon said:

The difference between having 122% recharge and 123% recharge is thirty seconds of downtime on Domination. The difference between 121% and 122% is miniscule, and anything 124% and beyond is irrelevant. 

 

How is it fair that that one percent makes such a large difference? People who build for permadom will still have it, under these proposed changes, and those who don't will have a better, less inconsistent time, especially during leveling. How would it harm you if other people could come closer to what permadom gives you?

When you put it like that, it's basically the same premise people had with snipes.  I personally had no issue needing a couple Tactics bonuses to get fast snipe w/ max damage but apparently that wasn't fair or simple enough so the devs chose to just give fast snipe in combat but gauge the damage up with ToHit.

[MunkiLord]

On 4/15/2020 at 12:02 PM, Replacement said:

But here is the simplest: Dump Domination bar on ability activation instead of buff expiry.

• CON: current permadominators will need to ensure they are refilling their bar again before their bar is up (SEE BELOW**)
• PRO: Losing Domination will no longer completely remove your momentum.
• PRO: Jekyll and Hyde feeling is maintained.  
• PRO: Build requirements to be "good" are eased significantly.
• PRO: Power develops on a curve instead of a sudden spike at the end.

Gonna start by saying I agree that the hard line between perma and non perma Dom is not ideal and overall I'm not opposed to looking at it. But I also don't think it's a big deal. I'm not a fan of this particular suggestion, really because the con you mentioned would have a pretty decent sized impact on me. Not a game breaker or anything, but I wouldn't like it. I did read through the thread, but if this suggestion has been changed I missed it.

 

  

On 4/16/2020 at 7:59 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

As for Domination, let's step away from changing that power itself then and look towards making it work more...

 

Change or add a Dominator ATO that specifically adds duration to Domination, or reduces Domination recharge significantly. 

 

Add +rech to the self buffs you get in Dom secondaries. 

 

Etc

Giving Doms a better ATO proc/ability would be fucking awesome in my opinion and I love this idea. Obviously the details would matter, but this is the kind of suggestion I can get behind.

 

  

10 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

@Replacement: Scrapper RNG criticals are, for me, a whole other barrel of disappointing. Mechanics I have no possible ability to influence, let alone control are the bane to my enjoyment of classes that are given them. It's The (capital T) reason I play Brutes over Scrappers. Same for why I would play Dominators over Controllers if I wanted a Lockdown focused AT.

 

I don't like PermaDom as a concept really, but I'll take it over just rolling a dice any day.

 

You can definitely influence the Scrapper crits with their ATOs, but not as much as Stalker crits and optimizing does require some numbers work that people may or may not want to deal with. Though I get you still may not be a fan of that, which I get. 

[Naraka]

7 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Yeah the more I think of it the more this is a showstopper for me. I've  . . . never liked Fury. I just tolerate it cause I like Brutes. And spines/fire. 😄

So then you don't really like Dominators, you like domination which is likely a distinction no one will outwardly acknowledge as being a distinction at all.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

Gonna start by saying I agree that the hard line between perma and non perma Dom is not ideal and overall I'm not opposed to looking at it. But I also don't think it's a big deal. I'm not a fan of this particular suggestion, really because the con you mentioned would have a pretty decent sized impact on me. Not a game breaker or anything, but I wouldn't like it. I did read through the thread, but if this suggestion has been changed I missed it.

 

  

Giving Doms a better ATO proc/ability would be fucking awesome in my opinion and I love this idea. Obviously the details would matter, but this is the kind of suggestion I can get behind.

 

  

You can definitely influence the Scrapper crits with their ATOs, but not as much as Stalker crits and optimizing does require some numbers work that people may or may not want to deal with. Though I get you still may not be a fan of that, which I get. 

Thank you.  Yes, the CON is a big one to current permadoms.  That's why I wanted to get more data on just how heavily that would impact folks.  Would it be terrible if you could consistently count on having your bar filled by the time you cleared the first mob?  Would you even miss it if you logged in one day and there was no Domination bar (cooldown only)?

 

@tidge  I gave you "it seems" in two preceding sentences to inform the reader this is supposition, and then I tried warning you that I was using your post as a jump-off point to a tirade that wasn't singling you out.  Your issues with my specific adverbs are not worth addressing further.  I will respect you if you vote for "I just don't want things to change" and I will hear other, more concrete reasons to not want changes.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Replacement

[MunkiLord]

14 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Thank you.  Yes, the CON is a big one to current permadoms.  That's why I wanted to get more data on just how heavily that would impact folks.  Would it be terrible if you could consistently count on having your bar filled by the time you cleared the first mob?  Would you even miss it if you logged in one day and there was no Domination bar (cooldown only)?

I'd be all about it if it made my life easier. Really your suggestion I'm not a fan of because I'm lazy and it would require slightly more effort for me since I screw around and take my time a lot. It wouldn't be the end of the world or anything, if it were to go into beta I'd basically just respond in a beta thread like I am here then just deal with, no huge loss. Since it wouldn't require a respec to keep my current effectiveness, I'd just adjust and get over it in like ten minutes. Fifteen if I happened to be a bad mood that day.

[Noyjitat]

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

Gonna start by saying I agree that the hard line between perma and non perma Dom is not ideal and overall I'm not opposed to looking at it. But I also don't think it's a big deal. I'm not a fan of this particular suggestion, really because the con you mentioned would have a pretty decent sized impact on me. Not a game breaker or anything, but I wouldn't like it. I did read through the thread, but if this suggestion has been changed I missed it.

 

  

Giving Doms a better ATO proc/ability would be fucking awesome in my opinion and I love this idea. Obviously the details would matter, but this is the kind of suggestion I can get behind.

 

  

You can definitely influence the Scrapper crits with their ATOs, but not as much as Stalker crits and optimizing does require some numbers work that people may or may not want to deal with. Though I get you still may not be a fan of that, which I get. 

Because changing it would alter someones builds including my own I wouldn't want the current ATOs to be replaced but I do want is a 2nd set of ATOS for dominator secondaries. Something that to me seems to be needed for some ATs anyway. Blasters being the exception since they have ATOs that function in both primary and secondary sets. Doms need something to proc on attacks since you will rarely ever be spamming the same control to even get the benefit of a proc. 

[MunkiLord]

6 minutes ago, Noyjitat said:

Because changing it would alter someones builds including my own I wouldn't want the current ATOs to be replaced but I do want is a 2nd set of ATOS for dominator secondaries. Something that to me seems to be needed for some ATs anyway. Blasters being the exception since they have ATOs that function in both primary and secondary sets. Doms need something to proc on attacks since you will rarely ever be spamming the same control to even get the benefit of a proc. 

Oh yes, I definitely wouldn't want the ATOs replaced for the very reason you state, I'd also like a new set and for it to be focused on secondary/damage powers. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Zeraphia]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

So then you don't really like Dominators, you like domination which is likely a distinction no one will outwardly acknowledge as being a distinction at all.

???

The AT's inherent is literally the DEFINING trait of an Archetype versus another beyond just the scalars of what the sets it has will get. Domination = Dominators. Many people pick Mind Control on Dominators but will not on Controllers. All Dominators have access to Domination, whether you choose to build to achieve it permanently or not is up to your discretion, but most who choose this AT do.  

[The Godchild]

My only issue with perma-dom is this: its fucking BORING. Its active, yes....but its not stimulating in any sense of the word. Perma-dom is boring as hell to play and requires such weird singular focus to do that I've honestly been putting off the 20% to 50 my dom needs to actually hit proper 50 even though she's well above perma dom already.

 

Its just BORING TO PLAY.

 

Seriously...perma-dom requires so much focus that my brain just...shuts off, even faster then normal brain-dead play in the game (54 PI coucil missions, etc). I don't find it fun...straight up. Yes perma-dom is INSANELY OP, instantly locking down bosses is huge deal that even controllers can't compare to since they only have a chance at the +1 mag vs a flat out auto-DOUBLE mag buff? How is that NOT OP as fuck compared to any baseline?

 

I get way more satisfaction outta my controller alts then I do my dom alts because I feel less stress and expectation, controllers are just more 'fun' compared....doms feel like they have an expectation of perma-dom at 50 that's required and if you don't meet it? Might as well just solo because people are gonna give you shit constantly on teams :/

[Naraka]

4 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

???

The AT's inherent is literally the DEFINING trait of an Archetype versus another beyond just the scalars of what the sets it has will get. Domination = Dominators. 

The inherent is the domination button AND the domination bar.  The argument I was making is more a distinction of fury vs domination in that people don't like fury because you have to pay attention to it...basically, some don't want a change to domination because they don't want to pay attention to it.

[kenlon]

14 hours ago, Naraka said:

When you put it like that, it's basically the same premise people had with snipes.  I personally had no issue needing a couple Tactics bonuses to get fast snipe w/ max damage but apparently that wasn't fair or simple enough so the devs chose to just give fast snipe in combat but gauge the damage up with ToHit.

You do still need the +to-hit to get bonus damage on fast snipe, though. Nothing changed for people who had the old fast-snipe builds, but people who were short of that got a usable in-combat attack instead of only an opener.

 

The parallel to my "Just make it a normal click buff" is very relevant, and I can't believe I didn't think of it before. 

[Noyjitat]

16 hours ago, The Godchild said:

My only issue with perma-dom is this: its fucking BORING. Its active, yes....but its not stimulating in any sense of the word. Perma-dom is boring as hell to play and requires such weird singular focus to do that I've honestly been putting off the 20% to 50 my dom needs to actually hit proper 50 even though she's well above perma dom already.

 

Its just BORING TO PLAY.

 

Seriously...perma-dom requires so much focus that my brain just...shuts off, even faster then normal brain-dead play in the game (54 PI coucil missions, etc). I don't find it fun...straight up. Yes perma-dom is INSANELY OP, instantly locking down bosses is huge deal that even controllers can't compare to since they only have a chance at the +1 mag vs a flat out auto-DOUBLE mag buff? How is that NOT OP as fuck compared to any baseline?

 

I get way more satisfaction outta my controller alts then I do my dom alts because I feel less stress and expectation, controllers are just more 'fun' compared....doms feel like they have an expectation of perma-dom at 50 that's required and if you don't meet it? Might as well just solo because people are gonna give you shit constantly on teams 😕

Comparing a controller to a dominator is stupid. Controllers have next to defender level buffs, debuffs and heals and controls that last the longest without the need of a domination power. A dominator has damage less than a blaster/scrapper but better than a controller/corruptor/defender and the doms controls last half as long as a controller but have double mag . A job of a dominator is to control it with that double mag and then kill it before it expires.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Noyjitat

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Noyjitat said:

A job of a dominator is to control it with that double mag and then kill it before it expires.

Or just reapply it before it expires because the duration is long enough to cover the recharge, especially if you have global recharge >_>

[golstat2003]

On 4/17/2020 at 10:17 PM, Naraka said:

So then you don't really like Dominators, you like domination which is likely a distinction no one will outwardly acknowledge as being a distinction at all.

Yeah complete tosh.

 

I like dominators. I don't like having to constantly build up domination, which is why I went perma dom.

 

If I'm forced to constantly build it up like Furty, that's a showstopper for me.

 

Not hard to understand unless the reader doesn't want to.

[golstat2003]

If Domination were just a toggle of some sort I'd be fine with that.

[Naraka]

2 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Yeah complete tosh.

 

I like dominators. I don't like having to constantly build up domination, which is why I went perma dom.

 

If I'm forced to constantly build it up like Furty, that's a showstopper for me.

 

Not hard to understand unless the reader doesn't want to.

I do understand.  I was making a tertiary observation that, as you demonstrated, wouldn't be acknowledged as a distinction within the whole of the AT.

 

Part of the AT is building the domination bar and perma-domination as it currently stands circumvents that.  The AT itself is not merely the result of building the bar but the process itself.

 

But then that's also kind of signing off the differences of fury and the domination bar, one that deteriorates at a very retarded rate vs the hyper fluctuating fury bar...but to the unobservant participant of perma-domination, there is no distinction which is what I was trying to illustrate.  To those, Dominators = Domination and any distinction outside of that is "tosh".

[golstat2003]

10 minutes ago, Naraka said:

I do understand.  I was making a tertiary observation that, as you demonstrated, wouldn't be acknowledged as a distinction within the whole of the AT.

 

Part of the AT is building the domination bar and perma-domination as it currently stands circumvents that.  The AT itself is not merely the result of building the bar but the process itself.

 

But then that's also kind of signing off the differences of fury and the domination bar, one that deteriorates at a very retarded rate vs the hyper fluctuating fury bar...but to the unobservant participant of perma-domination, there is no distinction which is what I was trying to illustrate.  To those, Dominators = Domination and any distinction outside of that is "tosh".

Except you're able to get it to the point where it won't deteriorate ever. That's a playstyle I believe the devs are fine with. Fury WILL, unless you are constantly fighting. As has been mentioned by others they specifically try to avoid that deterioration.

 

When I want to play that play style I play a brute and accept there is no way to avoid that deterioration. When I don't I play a Domination and get it to perma-domination. If there was a way to permanently stop Fury from decaying, I'd do that.

 

Also I'd argue that Dominators aren't as bad as the OP was stating outside of domination.

 

EDIT: One could argue that the original devs intent was not for perma domination to ever be possible (aka you should not be able to avoid the building up part of Domination). But that ship has long sailed, and I don't see the HC devs rolling back the ability to perma dom or get high levels of recharge. And I'll state again if domination were a straight up toggle, that would be fine by me.

 

The current suggest is not fine.

Edited April 19, 2020 by golstat2003

[Naraka]

8 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Except you're able to get it to the point where it won't deteriorate ever.

The efficacy of perma-dom isn't the point I'm making.  There are mixed commentary on that to include players hating dominator before they can keep domination up 100% to players that will repeat similar rhetoric about the AT being garbage if you're not perma-dom to individuals baffled that people would ever say such at all.

 

My point was directed at the AT and its mechanics and those mechanics include the Domination button, the effects it has, the Domination bar and its own speed of deterioration.  The Domination bar doesn't deteriorate nearly as fast as Fury, even after the various changes to its gain and deterioration (off topic, but Fury is more about *gains* than it is about preventing it from decaying).  It's possible that QoL prospects to the Domination bar are being held back merely because the meta focus on eliminating the bar itself.  That's not a subject I was aiming toward with the initial comment but it does spark some interest in that regards to the Dominatior AT as a whole.

 

How much of the AT is being held back because of the effectiveness of the perma-dom?  To take notes of the comments here, enough that non-perma doms won't be able to receive as much benefit from their global recharge until they join the club.

[golstat2003]

6 minutes ago, Naraka said:

The efficacy of perma-dom isn't the point I'm making.  There are mixed commentary on that to include players hating dominator before they can keep domination up 100% to players that will repeat similar rhetoric about the AT being garbage if you're not perma-dom to individuals baffled that people would ever say such at all.

 

My point was directed at the AT and its mechanics and those mechanics include the Domination button, the effects it has, the Domination bar and its own speed of deterioration.  The Domination bar doesn't deteriorate nearly as fast as Fury, even after the various changes to its gain and deterioration (off topic, but Fury is more about *gains* than it is about preventing it from decaying).  It's possible that QoL prospects to the Domination bar are being held back merely because the meta focus on eliminating the bar itself.  That's not a subject I was aiming toward with the initial comment but it does spark some interest in that regards to the Dominatior AT as a whole.

 

How much of the AT is being held back because of the effectiveness of the perma-dom?  To take notes of the comments here, enough that non-perma doms won't be able to receive as much benefit from their global recharge until they join the club.

If Domination were made into a toggle it would be an interesting change. Will it happen, who knows? 

The Domination bar deteriorates fast enough that it pushed folks to find way to make it perma, when IOs first made it possible to get enough recharge to do so.

 

One other suggestion I've previously seen (not in this thread) is to take all the benefits and move it into the AT's various powers. I"m not sure how feasible that is with the amount of manpower HC has.

 

EDIT: Domination reminds me of Champions Online's mechanic of having to build up END to be able to use your stronger powers. (Even more so than Fury). Which I don't like. Interestingly in that game players find a way around that mechanic also.

Edited April 19, 2020 by golstat2003

[tidge]

7 hours ago, Naraka said:

The efficacy of perma-dom isn't the point I'm making.  There are mixed commentary on that to include players hating dominator before they can keep domination up 100% to players that will repeat similar rhetoric about the AT being garbage if you're not perma-dom to individuals baffled that people would ever say such at all.

[...]

How much of the AT is being held back because of the effectiveness of the perma-dom?  To take notes of the comments here, enough that non-perma doms won't be able to receive as much benefit from their global recharge until they join the club.

As I wrote earlier in the thread, there is a positive feedback between Global Recharge and being an awesome Dominator aside from the magnitude of the controls:

 

1) Golbal Recharge -> Frequent Domination -> Endurance refill -> More Control/Attacks, and

2) Global Recharge -> More Control/Attacks

 

The other two effects of Domination ALSO contribute positively to being an epic Dominator, but not as much IMO

 

3) Domination -> Higher Magniutude Controls -> Higher Ratio of Attacks to Controls

4) Domination -> Mez resistance -> Lower likelihood of having an attack/control chain broken

 

I feel that the 'under-performance of non-perma' argument is really sidestepping (3) and (4). I see the last step in the chain as being something that most support ATs build towards as part of the game progression... it's just that Dominators have the unique AT inherent that allows them to get to it using the mechanic of Global Recharge. Part of what I see as a core misunderstanding of Permadom is that it focuses on the increased Magnitude of controls... sure this is a positive, but it is the short-timed reliable Endurance bar refill that is the true benefit.

 

Most other character ATs are specifically trying to achieve (1) and (2) through standard build techniques: Procs which rebuild Endurance, Accolades that increase Endurance, Hasten to increase Global Recharge, IO choices for Endurance Reduction/Recharge reductions, IO sets with bonuses, etc. Dominators have a wonderful trick available to them.

 

The suggestion to just make Domination a click power with no bar at all really wouldn't change the power at all, except in this way:  All Dominators (regardless of level) wouldn't have to build the 'charge' for Domination.  This seems to me to be overkill, as once the bar is filled Domination is already a 'click power'... you don't have to use it immediately! Having played Dominators through a lot of low-level content: part of learning the AT is to learn the optimal time to use Domination...it's so much more than just Build Up or Aim.

 

 

[ScarySai]

8 hours ago, Naraka said:

How much of the AT is being held back because of the effectiveness of the perma-dom?  To take notes of the comments here, enough that non-perma doms won't be able to receive as much benefit from their global recharge until they join the club.

 Not really that much, one shotting bosses with control is nice, but it's hardly unplayable. Global recharge doesn't JUST benefit domination.

 

As for the ATO thing, it would be nice if the fiery orb was actually useful, or replaced with something useful.