Monos King & Galaxy Brain's Mastermind Changes

[Redlynne]

4 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

To arrive at what would be the "same" damage. How painfully convoluted. Good old CoH. 

This is why I went to all the effort of demonstrating that although the damage multiplier gets increased, it doesn't mean that the absolute number "throughput" on damage suddenly ramps up higher than what Blasters can do.  You have to look at it in terms of the holistic package, not just merely ONE isolated component, so as to cross-check your work by cross-comparing absolute value "throughput" through the formulas.

 

 

 

As for painfully convoluted, have you seen the proc chances and accuracy/defense formulas?

 

PPM * ((BaseRecharge / ( 1 + RechargeBoost from Enhancements and Alpha / 100 )) + CastTime) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + Radius * (11 * Arc + 540) / 30,000))) = Proc Chance

Clamp(AccMods * (1 - TargetElusivity) * Clamp(BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods))) = HitChance

[Naraka]

19 hours ago, Nowea said:

The issue that comes to mind immediately here for me... The MM doesn't meaningfully interact with their primary powers while actually playing. You summon before combat (maybe during if it's worth resummoning corpses)... 'equip' as tedious 'bookkeeping' before combat...

This is where the adjustments can be made, and adjustments should be made based on what the MM is supposed to DO. The MM HAS pets that (in the end) are a means to an end of damage/support/control/whatever. The MM seems to be intended as a Damage + Support character that provides said damage and support through their pets. The MM could be a great character for dynamically 'sliding' between Support and Damage as the situation needs

I like this line of thinking, myself.  I'm pretty noob at MMs as I only recently started playing them to any capacity so my knowledge of the AT is overall lacking but I do have ideas and said ideas are kind of free of the direction of meta-game variants of MMs which can be bad since I don't know personally how the AT functions in late game builds (I've got 1 MM in the 30s and 1 in the 40s).  It could be a good thing when coming up with ideas outside the box though.

 

I made this post after getting my 1st MM into the 30s:

It's a suggestion for a Mastermind primary that uses Animus Arcanum as pets but I went a little off the beaten path by exchanging the 2 upgrade powers for something unique.  Instead of upgrade powers you cast on your pets, you get a passive that randomly pushes out a *short term* upgrade to some of your pets.  Of course, the pets are meant to be balanced so they function without the upgrade (just adding attacks/summons to them for a time) but also, those pets buff your attacks.

 

It's a far reach from your standard idea of a Mastermind primary with it's fluctuating style.  You occasionally boost your pets with extra attacks, your pets upgrade your personal attacks from the set, you using your upgraded attacks increases the chance you boost your pets.  Or at least that was the intent behind the idea.  It would be a unique flow of combat compared to other primaries.

 

That all said, I think it would have been cool if all of the primaries had unique flows of combat, relying on the different pieces of the primary (pets, pet upgrades, personal attacks and utility effect power) to more varied degrees than they are now.  Probably too late for that now but would have been cool. 

[Monos King]

I'm definitely interested to see how the damage/end discussion unfolds, but it makes me again curious about debuffs for the primary attacks. They definitely make engaging in combat with the pets more exciting.

 

In regards to having something to do though, wouldn't the pool and epic abilities suffice if you really want to jump into combat, or is that just not the same as what people are hoping for?

Edited May 10, 2020 by Monos King

[Monos King]

3 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Probably too late for that now but would have been cool. 

Probably for the existing MMs, but if we end up getting new MM primaries, we should definitely try to see unique interactions and mechanics exclusive to them, like your animus idea. For instance, I could see an elemental themed MM totally ditch equips or even rearrange the order of getting the pets. Getting your ultimate pet before level 17 for instance, or only having one permanent pet and just bumping it up as you level. I saw a few suggestions like that too.

[Galaxy Brain]

8 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I'm definitely interested to see how the damage/end discussion unfolds, but it makes me again curious about debuffs for the primary attacks. They definitely making engaging in combat with the pets more exciting.

 

In regards to having something to do though, wouldn't the pool and epic abilities suffice if you really want to jump into combat, or is that just not the same as what people are hoping for?

They have the same problem. MMs have increased end costs on all powers for relatively less output.

[Monos King]

15 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

They have the same problem. MMs have increased end costs on all powers for relatively less output.

There are a few who would rather see the equips removed (or combined) in exchange for more attacking. I was more addressing those who wanted additional powers for the sake of greater participation. It's an interesting approach for sure.

[Nanolathe]

46 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I'm definitely interested to see how the damage/end discussion unfolds, but it makes me again curious about debuffs for the primary attacks. They definitely making engaging in combat with the pets more exciting.

 

In regards to having something to do though, wouldn't the pool and epic abilities suffice if you really want to jump into combat, or is that just not the same as what people are hoping for?

I think it comes down to theme, as well as the "less bang for you buck" MMs are bound to. Pool Powers are underpowered in the first place, so that's not helpful, but also they're limited to mostly punches and kicks, or at least they have been until Sorcery and Experimentation. While those are interesting pools, the attacks don't often fit the theme I'm going for with a character. And in my opinion, the APPs and PPPs just unlock too late in the game for them to make a meaningful contribution to the overall levelling experience. Better range of character concepts catered for, and slightly better secondary effects for the more offensive choices, but still lacklustre damage output for cost. Knockout Blow is fun though, despite all that!

Edited May 10, 2020 by Nanolathe
s'pling

[Redlynne]

32 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I'm definitely interested to see how the damage/end discussion unfolds, but it makes me again curious about debuffs for the primary attacks. They definitely make engaging in combat with the pets more exciting.

Well, the key to that parallel track for putting debuffs on the primary personal attacks is that whatever gets "stacked" onto them ought to be something both thematic (and therefore plausible/appropriate) and something that can harmonize/synergize with how your Pets "work" (and protect themselves) such that the Mastermind is able to "support" their Pets through both the primary (attacks) and secondary powersets.

 

The example I'm most familiar with are Ninjas (for what should be obvious reasons) and their Bow attacks do Lethal damage ... and that's it.  No damage over time, no debuffing, no self buffing, no nothing ... just raw Lethal damage (and not much of that, to be honest).

 

I've raised the prospect of "poisoning" those personal attacks (you ARE playing a Ninja Mastermind, right?), although not with anything as powerful as the Poison powerset.  In this case, I'm angling for something which is more "debilitating" than something that hastens defeats, so a debuff that weakens $Targets without increasing the damage that they're taking (and is therefore damage throughput "neutral" as far as that goes).  That means no DoTs or -Resistance debuffing.  It should also be something relatively minor, rather than obnoxiously overpowered (like a -500% Regeneration or anything similarly ridiculous).

 

The option that I've raised previously would be poisoning Ninja primary personal attacks with a minor Slow (-Movement and -Recharge) which can be enhanced (with sets!) so as to represent a "debilitating poison" that makes $Targets sluggish so they can't fight at (default) max capacity.  The alternative to that option (which I just thought of) would be to add a minor -ToHit debuff to Snap Shot, Aimed Shot and Fistful of Arrows which can be enhanced (with sets!) so as to represent a "debilitating poison" that impairs the senses (blurry vision, numbness leading to poor proprioception, sloppy judgement of depth perception, etc.) ... which would directly synergize with the Defense protection scheme that Ninjas use to avoid taking damage.  Ideally speaking, both debuffs would be added (thus enabling access to both enhancement sets!) with the direct design intent for the Mastermind to be able to STACK the debuffing to "useful" quantities with repeated attacks, but still being limited in effectiveness by the "depth" of that stack.

[Nowea]

 

7 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Which will lower the damage as a consequence, as damage is a calculated number based on a power's endurance cost and recharge time (and probably other factors), multiplied by the AT's damage scale, rather than something input directly. Apparently this damage-as-derived-number is a real pain to work around. Or at least that's what I've always been under the impression of being the case having lurked on the old forums, and here. 

Well ok then

2 hours ago, Monos King said:

In regards to having something to do though, wouldn't the pool and epic abilities suffice if you really want to jump into combat, or is that just not the same as what people are hoping for?

That's... kinda a bandaid instead of fixing the underlying issue though. The main issue is that the MM primary sets feature very little active play and it's often 'very' weak to actually use the attacks that you can grab from them. Ideally anything you're grabbing from pools (and possibly epics?) are actually extra things as opposed to being things to grab for your character just to have something to do.

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Well, the key to that parallel track for putting debuffs on the primary personal attacks is that whatever gets "stacked" onto them ought to be something both thematic (and therefore plausible/appropriate) and something that can harmonize/synergize with how your Pets "work" (and protect themselves) such that the Mastermind is able to "support" their Pets through both the primary (attacks) and secondary powersets.

This is definitely the route to be going down. I'd prefer to see some method implemented for the attacks only making the MM's pets fight better (be that more damage, more survivability, whatever), so as to thematically and 'interesting gameplay' differentiate the primary sets from the secondary... and possibly open up being able to have stronger effects on the attacks since they won't be helping everyone directly.

That being said, I could see there being issues with implementing this on a technical or balance level and that some of my example ideas are probably more difficult to implement than they'd be 'worth'

[Nanolathe]

The issue that I can see, and have had personal experience with, is that some players will be reticent to take personal attack powers for thematic reasons, and of course, from being a shake up to the status quo, especially if you make the personal attack powers more essential for playing a MM at post50 content. So a hybrid approach would seem to be the best, between giving extra utility to the current mandatory 3 pets + 2 upgrades that is geared towards helping with post50, and making the remaining 4 powers better so that they can at least compete with the alternatives outside the set (pool powers and ancillary/patron powers). This split method would help the journey to 50 become a more engaging experience for those that desire it, without it outclassing the MMs secondary powerset, and not force the players that don't want them to feel like they are obligated to take personal attacks to tackle the extreme late game

 

I suppose the thing to do is to go through each primary and think about what it lacks in the late game and see if the Upgrade powers can be altered to be something that helps, as a power that must targeted on one of your pets. And/Or to consider what the personal attacks could provide in lieu of, or in addition to that, but have to function as an early game "bonus" that can scale to the late game, but be pretty much non essential for those people who don't want personal attacks?

 

There seems to be two distinct problems that exist, the pre50 doldrums and the post50 wall.

 

Come at it from both angles?

Edited May 10, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Monos King]

4 hours ago, Nowea said:

That's... kinda a bandaid instead of fixing the underlying issue though. The main issue is that the MM primary sets feature very little active play and it's often 'very' weak to actually use the attacks that you can grab from them. Ideally anything you're grabbing from pools (and possibly epics?) are actually extra things as opposed to being things to grab for your character just to have something to do.

I'm of the same mind, actually. The big issue is trying to fit something to do in the existing MM primary format, without making them immediately far too powerful since the pets are already there to effectively compensate for said constrained participation. If it's only a matter of giving reason to pick up the existing powers, then debuffs are the way to go. That's why we'd like to see ninjas get some -def and -dmg between their last two abilities. 

 

Something like thugs, however, is so potent currently that any additional changes would just elevate it to over-potence. 

 

4 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Upgrade powers can be altered to be something that helps, as a power that must targeted on one of your pets.

I like that idea, giving the upgrades something special. As you know we're currently in favor of embedding the auras with the equips, but seeing a thematic improvement or temporary boost of some sort (access to a unique move for a little bit perhaps?) would be really engaging and fun.

Maybe using upgrade on the assault bot gives it temporary use of the gas missiles for instance.

 

But what's important to keep in mind is that we can't just give increase after increase without considering the actual need for said changes in real performance. If we look at changes that are pretty much mandatory like level increase for t1s, the updates will immediately improve aspects across the board and render the validity of things like small damage buffs quite little. MMs do need to have limitations still, and while I'm certainly down to encourage the use of the personal powers I know that if they become too effective it will become a balance issue, as beyond all else, MMs are a pet class. Although the player might want to feel more impactful, if we're putting the pets into a position where they finally already are...it might not seem pertinent to do much with primary personals outside of the most minor things.

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

The issue that I can see, and have had personal experience with, is that some players will be reticent to take personal attack powers for thematic reasons, and of course, from being a shake up to the status quo, especially if you make the personal attack powers more essential for playing a MM at post50 content. So a hybrid approach would seem to be the best, between giving extra utility to the current mandatory 3 pets + 2 upgrades that is geared towards helping with post50, and making the remaining 4 powers better so that they can at least compete with the alternatives outside the set (pool powers and ancillary/patron powers).

You're trying to have it both ways.

 

Your stance is basically that you want the personal attacks to be BETTER than they are right now, but NOT GOOD ENOUGH to become NECESSARY.  Except, the whole point of the exercise is to make them BETTER ENOUGH to become desirable ... which will overturn the Conventional Wisdom™ that skipping the personal attacks is the only "Sensible" option.

 

Will you still be able to skip them entirely?  Of course, it will be perfectly possible to create builds that still include zero personal attacks from the Mastermind primaries.

Will it still be as much of a slam dunk "smart" decision to continue to skip them entirely?  The whole point of the exercise is to put the WISDOM of that option up for debate so as to make it a close(r) call than it is right now, where the consensus opinion is that taking the personal attacks (let alone slotting them) is waste of power picks and slots better invested elsewhere.

 

You can't make a choice more competitive and NOT expect to have it compete more strongly when the paradigm shifts.  You can't have it both ways.

[Nanolathe]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

You're trying to have it both ways.

 

Your stance is basically that you want the personal attacks to be BETTER than they are right now, but NOT GOOD ENOUGH to become NECESSARY.  Except, the whole point of the exercise is to make them BETTER ENOUGH to become desirable ... which will overturn the Conventional Wisdom™ that skipping the personal attacks is the only "Sensible" option.

 

Will you still be able to skip them entirely?  Of course, it will be perfectly possible to create builds that still include zero personal attacks from the Mastermind primaries.

Will it still be as much of a slam dunk "smart" decision to continue to skip them entirely?  The whole point of the exercise is to put the WISDOM of that option up for debate so as to make it a close(r) call than it is right now, where the consensus opinion is that taking the personal attacks (let alone slotting them) is waste of power picks and slots better invested elsewhere.

 

You can't make a choice more competitive and NOT expect to have it compete more strongly when the paradigm shifts.  You can't have it both ways.

I want personal attack powers to be a completely viable part of players' builds that can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with those that focus on non-attacking builds. It's just at the moment they can't, bar a very few possible exceptions. I want the choice of whether the character I'm playing needs all the personal attacks, or choose to skip them all. I apologise if that wasn't clear from my previous posts.

 

I do not want to just swap one paradigm for another. That'd be just pushing my own agenda, rather than actually trying to solve a problem. I want to choose personal attack powers on a MM and not feel like I'm massively sacrificing my ability to play well in post50 content. Likewise I'd also like the AT to be balanced enough so that my choice not to pick any of the personal attack powers isn't hampering my ability to play to a different strength within the Archetype. Two different styles of Mastermind that function at similar levels of overall capability, but that will certainly differ in moment to moment gameplay and player interaction with their pets, the targets, their secondary, the team, etc. The way in which the powers are picked and then given enhancement slots, or left as one-slot-wonders is what makes picking powers and developing a build interesting, and by extension, the Archetype interesting.

 

I'm wanting the different feels of both the aloof, stand-back, pinpoint and exploit aspect of the AT, as a contrast to the one that wants to get stuck in and dish out good round of punches along side the boys (or bots, or corpses, or unholy hellspawn, as the case may be). As I see it, there's the potential for at least two different and distinct kinds of Masterminds possible within the system, it's just that one is currently criminally under served. As I've said many times before, I like the MM personal attacks and I want them to be good, but I don't want the underdog to suddenly overshadow what I see as a perfectly viable way to alternately play the class, despite the fact that they've had the run of the playground up to this point.

 

So yes, I want it both ways. I'd prefer that each player's Mastermind can be one of two kinds of Mastermind, and that your power picks and slotting dictate which side you end up favouring, rather than one side being the clear favourite, or as is the current reality, the only "real" way to play. The command of Henchmen is the only constant between the two; but using them as a bodyguard and a distraction, or making them your cat's paw are two different ways the AT could be played. I'd like to see both.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Monos King]

31 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

So yes, I want it both ways. I'd prefer that each player's Mastermind can be one of two kinds of Mastermind, and that your power picks and slotting dictate which side you end up favouring, rather than one side being the clear favourite, or as is the current reality, the only "real" way to play. The command of Henchmen is the only constant between the two; but using them as a bodyguard and a distraction, or making them your cat's paw are two different ways the AT could be played. I'd like to see both.

I'm a bit confused. There will only ever be one type of mastermind; the one that controls pets. You just want powers to be somewhat useful on their own right?

[Replacement]

Statement:

 

Even if your pet powers are mandatory, all the other powers in your set should be viable -- in competition with all your viable but not mandatory secondaries, and your viable but not mandatory pool selections. 

 

Briefly: Viable and mandatory are not the same thing.

 

Consider: Leadership toggles. Manipulation set melee attacks. Controls in melee sets.

These are good picks, but they won't make the cut for every build and that's ok. I don't think it's unreasonable for @Nanolathe to want all their options to be reasonable.

 

I'm frankly not sure there's anyone here disagreeing with this, but I'm hoping maybe this will help clarify the position.

 

[Nanolathe]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

I'm a bit confused. There will only ever be one type of mastermind; the one that controls pets. You just want powers to be somewhat useful on their own right?

Controlling pets as wave upon wave of disposable minions, controlling pets as dependable allies you keep alive as long as possible, controlling pets as if you're a buff bot with your own personal AI team, controlling pets as though they're just a different kind of "shield" power. 

 

All of these Masterminds would be controlling pets. All of them would play as very different Masterminds. Maybe not every concept would be possible within the current restraints of 9 primary powers, but I'd at least like to have the option of playing more than just 1 of these styles by picking powers and enhancement slotting choices.

[Hopestar]

As a supporting argument to this, the ability to have disposable minions/shield minions and not completely tank your end would greatly benefit secondaries with no real defensive capabilities like /Kin and /Storm. Of course the huge culprits of this problem are long recharge times and the ridiculous endurance costs where summoning minions still cost at max Endurance ED, around 10 endurance per power.

[Redlynne]

The closest I can come to allaying @Nanolathe's fears on this point concerning the personal attacks is that you wouldn't want to alter/update the personal attacks to such an extent that as a Player you would have to be an ID10T Error personified not to take them.  In other words, they can't become "SO GOOD" that they become "mandatory" to take for that primary because they overshadow every other possibility.  If I'm interpreting the objection correctly (not always guaranteed), then the concern is a matter of DEGREE of improvement, rather than an objection to improvement happening AT ALL.

 

As matters stand with the legacy structure of Mastermind primaries, the common consensus is that not only are the personal attacks "worthless" but are actually detrimental to take and slot and use.  So the pendulum for that is pushed pretty hard over into the "This is wrong tool, never use this!" camp on this point.  Whatever happens in this regard cannot then OVERCOMPENSATE for this initial condition by swinging the pendulum SO FAR in the other direction that you wind up in a place of "If you skip these you are DUMB!" due to being so tightly (or perhaps too tightly) integrated into the primary powerset's performance.

 

THAT is something that I would also agree would be a mistake ... to push things "that far" and to that degree.

So what you're looking for is a kind of Goldilocks Point™ where the improvements to the personal attacks are "enough but not too much" for increasing their usefulness and "value" to their respective Mastermind primaries.

 

But then again, you're going to run into trouble if you take a One Size Fits All™ approach for doing that.  The "newer" Mastermind primaries (Demons, Beasts) are "better balanced" than the originals from Issue 6 were/are, and Demons and Beasts have personal attacks that ARE rather more tightly integrated with their primary powersets (Beasts in particular having the procs to increase Pack Mentality system integrated into the personal attacks).  Likewise, Demons and Beasts aren't "proliferating" their personal attacks from other existing powersets, since they were made whole cloth "new" for their respective primaries.  So any sort of "rule" you come up with for the other older primary powersets (Ninjas, Mercs, Robots, et al.) you need to be making a judgement call as to whether or not the newer primary powersets ought to (or even "need to") partake in similar buffing of the personal attacks for them too ... or are the newer primary sets In A Better Place™ simply because they got developed later and therefore don't suffer (as badly) as the older primary powersets do?

 

In other words, there are judgement calls to be made on the "reach" of any changes, and how globally they ought to be applied.  THAT is a sensible stance to take.

 

 

 

However, taking the stance that ANY changes to the older primary powersets to make their personal attacks more useful will ipso facto DEMAND that they MUST be taken (or you're an ID10T Player) ... so don't change ANYTHING ... while simultaneously insisting that they're crappy game design and need to be improved ... is just inherently self-defeating.  There's no way to change what the powers DO without changing the meta of their VALUE in builds.  If you make the personal attacks better, then their value in builds will rise.

 

I can agree with the position that you don't want to overcompensate and make the personal attacks TOO GOOD (such that they then become "mandatory" picks due to the rise in their value).  The challenge is to find a balance point where the personal attacks become COMPETITIVE picks with other alternatives, without making them "win by default" on (increased) value in builds.

 

 

 

And THAT is the challenge of making Good Game Design Decisions.  😎

The objective is to open up new possibilities without foreclosing on others in exchange.

[Galaxy Brain]

Looking into the upgrade powers, we have the following:

 

• Cast times are between 1-2.3 seconds, this could be standardized (weird how they're not... beasts have like 1 second and Demons have >2s on each upgrade)
• Both upgrade powers cost 22.75 end (yikes)
• T1 recharges in 6s, T2 in 10s
• Range of 50ft, 30ft radius around target

 

That has some wiggle room for additional benefits.

 

 

As for personal attacks, one thing to look at is how much do we expect the MM to contribute with DPS? For example, the propositions will make each tier of pet roughly even in damage contribution (30% on minions, then >30% each on the LTs and Boss). Should the MM be = a pet tier? A portion?

 

 

[Redlynne]

10 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Cast times are between 1-2.3 seconds, this could be standardized (weird how they're not... beasts have like 1 second and Demons have >2s on each upgrade)

Probably because it was all about making COOL™ animations at first, and then only later the devs realized that Players cared about animation times (at which point it was FAR TOO LATE to do anything to fix it all).

11 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

As for personal attacks, one thing to look at is how much do we expect the MM to contribute with DPS?

I'm of the opinion that anything above zero is "gravy" on top of whatever the Pets are doing.  It's not like I'm trying to hit a percentage marker ... I'm just trying to DO SOMETHING to make the fights end faster (so my Pets take less damage, meaning less need for healing).

[Nanolathe]

 @Redlynne, I don't quite follow where you got that I object to buffing MM personal attacks at all. I was always in favour of buffing them from the very first post I made in the thread. Now, I'm not much of a numbers person, so I'm not going to put hard numbers down for how much each primary set needs improvement, changes or more substantial re-works. I can make suggestions based on theme and some general "effects" that might be thematic, but the nitty-gritty of the exact percentages for power effects, damage changes and so forth, I will leave to better minds.

 

And I am aware that any changes would result in a potential shift in the meta surrounding MM power picks. The tightrope-walk of making them competitive, rather than mandatory, or even "probably the best choice" is a matter of tweaking the numbers, not an issue with the concept (at least that's my opinion). Initially I was of the view that just buffing the MM personal attacks was the way to go, but I have since learnt that doing so wouldn't affect late game as much as I would hope due to how the Purple Patch affects your Henchmen's abilities in both survivability and damage. However, I am still strongly of the opinion that just buffing the T1 pets to +1 level doesn't go far enough in fixing the underlying problem that I personally (and others have also stated, including you) have with playing a MM, minute to minute. It's kind of dull unless you spice it up with attacks. For reference, the most fun I've had on a MM was taking the entire fighting pool, and Bile Spray + KO blow from Leviathan, and making a ghetto attack chain out of those powers. He's not very good at mixing it up in melee, sure, but it sure beats the alternative of sitting about waiting for my debuffs to come off cooldown so I can put on a second application.

 

I like the MM personal attacks, and giving me a reason to take them would be great! But, I understand that some players would see that as removing the "core" of what the MM is to them. In fact some of them have told me so on the Discord. So I'll temper my expectations and ask only that the powers be made acceptable, rather than needing them to be exceptional... which is another stance I'm not taking, either.

 

Again, I dislike the one-way-to-play mentality. I want the option of playing a MM with attacks that isn't gimping my overall efficacy, and I want the option that not taking the powers would also not harm the overall efficacy of the Archetype. I want it both ways.

 

...

 

Or I want a new Archetype that does specifically cater to my need to smash face, while also having fawning minions at my beck and call.

But that would be a topic for another thread entirely.

😉

[Redlynne]

Well, Masterminds can be played Petless.  It's sub-optimal, but people can (and do) play that way anyway.

Masterminds can be played without personal attacks from the primary.  Even if the personal attacks are buffed into being acceptable/useful, that will remain the same.

 

As for what the Conventional Wisdom™ will settle upon as the "right way to play" after making any changes ... well, there aren't all that many ways to "control" that with perfect certainty from the get-go.

52 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

Initially I was of the view that just buffing the MM personal attacks was the way to go, but I have since learnt that doing so wouldn't affect late game as much as I would hope due to how the Purple Patch affects your Henchmen's abilities in both survivability and damage. However, I am still strongly of the opinion that just buffing the T1 pets to +1 level doesn't go far enough in fixing the underlying problem

This is true.  It isn't just ONE thing that needs to be fixed.  There's no "silver bullet" for Mastermind problems in this regard.  There's multiple pieces to this puzzle.

 

What needs to happen is a collection of SMALL tweaks to a variety of elements so as to give Masterminds the overall tune up that they need.  It's not a case of moving ONE thing by A Lot ... but rather a matter of moving a LOT of things by A Little Bit in order to settle Masterminds into a new paradigm of how they ought to be built and played, while making sure that such a paradigm shift does not eliminate all of the options we've enjoyed up until now.  So you want to expand without creating outright obsolescence.  The problem with that is that as far as the min-max crowd is concerned (and they're the "loudest" crowd) as soon as something becomes non-optimal (which they will term "non-viable") they will kick that option to the curb (and sometimes curb stomp on it for good measure) just to border guard against anyone ever thinking it might be in any way useful ever again.  They'll be wrong (of course), but when has that ever stopped anyone from feeling self-righteous about what they (purport to) "Know" better than anyone else?

 

There is wisdom in crowds ... but crowds can also be stupid.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

9 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

What needs to happen is a collection of SMALL tweaks to a variety of elements so as to give Masterminds the overall tune up that they need.  It's not a case of moving ONE thing by A Lot ... but rather a matter of moving a LOT of things by A Little Bit in order to settle Masterminds into a new paradigm of how they ought to be built and played, while making sure that such a paradigm shift does not eliminate all of the options we've enjoyed up until now.

Exactly this. As outlined in the OP and the attached threads, there are only a couple of "massive" changes with regards to individual powers here or there, but it's all in the context of all the changes put together. 

[Razor Cure]

Good ideas. The data backs it all up.

I dont really like the one ATO becoming a damage proc though. MM attacks suck (which your ideas kinda redress, but still) and I have NEVER been tempted by any, besides perhaps whip ones, cause they look awesome. But the MM themself should NOT be about doing (much) damage..so a damage proc? I dont know.

Love the change for kb prot one, but something else in place of damage.

[Galaxy Brain]

12 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Good ideas. The data backs it all up.

I dont really like the one ATO becoming a damage proc though. MM attacks suck (which your ideas kinda redress, but still) and I have NEVER been tempted by any, besides perhaps whip ones, cause they look awesome. But the MM themself should NOT be about doing (much) damage..so a damage proc? I dont know.

Love the change for kb prot one, but something else in place of damage.

The damage proc could go on pets too