[Afterburner] +def -fly protection ... only effecting self?

[Grouchybeast]

There's no high enough cost, because squishy characters like Blasters are not meant to have access to powers that give them 18.8% Def to all.  That is why they are called squishy characters.

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, Joshex said:

nice finds, ok then. thats because it's Mag 9 and debuffs, recharge, movement and stealth to 50 and 65%! massive cost for massive power. maybe I underestimated the cost of the end that would be a fair trade for "in combat" in this case. I would appreciate a second opinion on what sort of end cost/sec would be sufficient. From where we could divide that up into end cost damage debuff and accuracy debuff or to hit or something.

You’re asking for a toggle available to Everyone at level 20 that does more than almost the entire Super Reflexes set combined. It’s not going to happen. At any end cost.

 

 The power you want, in a not ridiculously OP form, already exists and it’s called Unleash Potential.

[Joshex]

59 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

You’re asking for a toggle available to Everyone at level 20 that does more than almost the entire Super Reflexes set combined. It’s not going to happen. At any end cost.

 

 The power you want, in a not ridiculously OP form, already exists and it’s called Unleash Potential.

what pool? or do I have to be a certain At or pick a certain primary or secondary? if so, that's why they made pool powers. so you could pick any power-sets and make it work. costs make things valid, it's the rule of the game. it's how they built and then balanced the powers, don't believe me, ask Arcana the stats genius. there can be an in battle cost thats different and substantially so that many builds can't afford it except squishies.

 

Edit: the way it worked in this game while it was live and the devs were adding powersets and pool powers was; come up with a neat power/set idea> make it> listen to player grievances> Balance/nerf.

 

given that Afterburner really isn't that old, and given the state of paragon studios at the time, I'd venture a guess that Afterburner was never balanced or nerfed. so it still has the dev's original idea for balancing cost. maybe that's also why it's so OP. maybe this power needs a bit of balancing.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Joshex

[Wavicle]

24 minutes ago, Joshex said:

what pool? or do I have to be a certain At or pick a certain primary or secondary? if so, that's why they made pool powers. so you could pick any power-sets and make it work. costs make things valid, it's the rule of the game. it's how they built and then balanced the powers, don't believe me, ask Arcana the stats genius. there can be an in battle cost thats different and substantially so that many builds can't afford it except squishies.

 

Edit: the way it worked in this game while it was live and the devs were adding powersets and pool powers was; come up with a neat power/set idea> make it> listen to player grievances> Balance/nerf.

 

given that Afterburner really isn't that old, and given the state of paragon studios at the time, I'd venture a guess that Afterburner was never balanced or nerfed. so it still has the dev's original idea for balancing cost. maybe that's also why it's so OP. maybe this power needs a bit of balancing.

Unleash potential is in the force of will set. It is available to everyone at level 20, just like afterburner which is totally fine as is.

[Apparition]

As quite a few of us have been trying to tell you, Afterburner is not the problem.  It does its job and is fine as is.  Your build is the problem.

 

A friend of mine made an Electric/Energy/Cold Blaster build last night out of boredom.  The build is not mine to share, but:

 

 

 

 

The damage output is also very decent.  So, what you want is easily doable on an Electric/Energy Blaster, without any changes to make Afterburner completely overpowered.

[Joshex]

10 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Unleash potential is in the force of will set. It is available to everyone at level 20, just like afterburner which is totally fine as is.

Click type != toggle.

5 minutes ago, Apparition said:

As quite a few of us have been trying to tell you, Afterburner is not the problem.  It does its job and is fine as is.  Your build is the problem.

 

A friend of mine made an Electric/Energy/Cold Blaster build last night out of boredom.  The build is not mine to share, but:

 

 

 

 

The damage output is also very decent.  So, what you want is easily doable on an Electric/Energy Blaster, without any changes to make Afterburner completely overpowered.

532% regen? I tried adding and taking away 2 slotted LOTG and it wouldn't budge above 308%... must be a bug in my mids version.. seems I will need new mids to make any sense of this.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Joshex

[MTeague]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Unleash potential is in the force of will set. It is available to everyone at level 20, just like afterburner which is totally fine as is.

Unleash Potential is one of the 10 minute cooldown / lasts about a minute buffs. 

It's by no means meant to be up all the time. 

It's meant to be an "Oh-Sh**" button, or something you pop right before an AV.

 

You may also want to check out Adrenal Booster in Experimentation pool.

(Just be aware you can't have both)

 

[Wavicle]

You could also just make a Sentinel with a Defense based secondary. I think this kind of request is pretty much why Sentinels exist in the first place.

[The Godchild]

9 hours ago, Joshex said:

Travel does come into consideration when the game decides whether you are in or out of battle.

...yeah it does actually. Fly, super jump and super speed ALL get their speeds heavily suppressed the moment you attack something...that's the games answer to knowing when you're in or out of combat in relation to travel powers.

 

As for this whole thread....I clicked on it knowing I was gonna have a laugh but damn...seriously? Not gonna touch on the get gud/bad build BS...I'm just gonna point out the obvious like several others already have: Afterburner is NOT for combat purposes...alpha soak, sure...but even then if that's your reason for taking it....you've probably got bigger underlying issues you should look at first before investing in an incredibly situational +def source >.>

 

The big thing about Afterburner is that it forcefully increases the flight speed cap...considerably, while its active. Fly's fly-speed caps out at a fairly low number (50-60ish kph range I think) and Afterburner adds about +15-20 to the speed cap as well as increasing your air control (though I find combat jumping does a similar/better job of that). The fact it gives defense is baffling to me since snipers are rare in all but the highest level zones (where you have defenses and survival options) and if that was the reasoning...it's a pointless feature of the power. 

 

tl;dr version: Afterburner is either there to be a proc mule since it does';t require any slots to be effective or for people that just need to fly somewhere that little bit faster because they're in that much of a hurry to get from point A to point B. If you're only taking if for the +def...don't. Waste of a power pick you could put towards something better and usable all the time...rather then a situational janky power you'll have to keep turning on and off because that's not its intended purpose.

[Joshex]

5 hours ago, The Godchild said:

...yeah it does actually. Fly, super jump and super speed ALL get their speeds heavily suppressed the moment you attack something...that's the games answer to knowing when you're in or out of combat in relation to travel powers.

 

As for this whole thread....I clicked on it knowing I was gonna have a laugh but damn...seriously? Not gonna touch on the get gud/bad build BS...I'm just gonna point out the obvious like several others already have: Afterburner is NOT for combat purposes...alpha soak, sure...but even then if that's your reason for taking it....you've probably got bigger underlying issues you should look at first before investing in an incredibly situational +def source >.>

 

The big thing about Afterburner is that it forcefully increases the flight speed cap...considerably, while its active. Fly's fly-speed caps out at a fairly low number (50-60ish kph range I think) and Afterburner adds about +15-20 to the speed cap as well as increasing your air control (though I find combat jumping does a similar/better job of that). The fact it gives defense is baffling to me since snipers are rare in all but the highest level zones (where you have defenses and survival options) and if that was the reasoning...it's a pointless feature of the power. 

 

tl;dr version: Afterburner is either there to be a proc mule since it does';t require any slots to be effective or for people that just need to fly somewhere that little bit faster because they're in that much of a hurry to get from point A to point B. If you're only taking if for the +def...don't. Waste of a power pick you could put towards something better and usable all the time...rather then a situational janky power you'll have to keep turning on and off because that's not its intended purpose.

That's why I asked people who use it, it may be baffling to us how the 18.8% def on a only effecting self travel booster is worth taking it, again, an MM could probably profit the most from it. but yeah some squishies find it makes them waste less time and take less chances of being sniped to death before they get barrier or such incarnate powers.

 

and that really is the core problem with it as is, people here are saying it's got no problems as is, thats untrue. it gives an unfair advantage to Masterminds who can easily attack with pets while only effecting themselves, that means it grants them insane amounts of def, all they need to do is give up attacks and focus on pets.

 

MM's aren't even that squishy to begin with..

 

So yeah I'd say afterburner as is, is highly broken after thinking about it clearly.. It benefits a single AT more than any others and gives that AT an unfair advantage. only time they'd have to turn it off is if their pets die, or to resummon them.

 

so yeah it will need some "in combat" nerfing, either automatic pet de-summon when activated, or allow it used in battle for an insane end cost per second, or supply damage or accuracy debuffs in battle while active, or Automatically lower the def it provides in battle to something more "normal".

 

Any other ideas how to fix it?

 

 

edit: I think I'm inspired to go make a tankermind just to hammer the point home.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Joshex

[The Godchild]

1 hour ago, Joshex said:

MM's aren't even that squishy to begin with..

 

...sorry, that made me laugh pretty hard. >.>

 

MM's have the lowest possible HP of any AT by a considerable margin and without bodyguard...HA! Fully kitted-out MM in BG mode can still get 2-shot because their hp is just that low compared to other ATs. Yes they can be durable (like every other non-melee AT can with sets n'work) but typically at the cost of other core powers to get the survival levels a tankermind would have/need. Same can be said for tank-fenders, scrankers or whatever hogwash names people come up with for these non-tank tank-builds.

 

Either way, pretty sure a MM under an 'only affecting self' power can't actively command their pets (not 100% sure on that since I hate playing MM's, go figure :P), you'd be relying 100% on just aggroing into things and hoping they kill the most dangerous stuff first otherwise you're gonna be floating there...all by yourself in a pile of dead pets and very angry mobs. None of your leadership would work...none of your debuffs would work...any powers like dispersion bubble would only affect you...you can't heal your pets...all for a measly +10% def? Remind me why MM's get the best benefits again?

 

The continued push you're trying to do to get afterburner turned into something its not isn't getting anywhere and won't get anywhere because the power is working as intended as it has been since live. Its a travel power, not a combat defense power. Who the actual fuck cares if only mm's get the (questionably) 'best' benefits? It still comes at a price, and that's 1 of what....15 ATs we have access to presently?

 

This has gone on for 3 pages now and the same points keep getting made and explained quite clearly...not sure why you're still arguing to get it changed when you seem to be the only person that's convinced it needs to be changed for your benefit, not for anyone else.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by The Godchild

[Joshex]

1 hour ago, The Godchild said:

 

...sorry, that made me laugh pretty hard. >.>

 

MM's have the lowest possible HP of any AT by a considerable margin and without bodyguard...HA! Fully kitted-out MM in BG mode can still get 2-shot because their hp is just that low compared to other ATs. Yes they can be durable (like every other non-melee AT can with sets n'work) but typically at the cost of other core powers to get the survival levels a tankermind would have/need. Same can be said for tank-fenders, scrankers or whatever hogwash names people come up with for these non-tank tank-builds.

 

Either way, pretty sure a MM under an 'only affecting self' power can't actively command their pets (not 100% sure on that since I hate playing MM's, go figure :P), you'd be relying 100% on just aggroing into things and hoping they kill the most dangerous stuff first otherwise you're gonna be floating there...all by yourself in a pile of dead pets and very angry mobs. None of your leadership would work...none of your debuffs would work...any powers like dispersion bubble would only affect you...you can't heal your pets...all for a measly +10% def? Remind me why MM's get the best benefits again?

 

The continued push you're trying to do to get afterburner turned into something its not isn't getting anywhere and won't get anywhere because the power is working as intended as it has been since live. Its a travel power, not a combat defense power. Who the actual fuck cares if only mm's get the (questionably) 'best' benefits? It still comes at a price, and that's 1 of what....15 ATs we have access to presently?

 

This has gone on for 3 pages now and the same points keep getting made and explained quite clearly...not sure why you're still arguing to get it changed when you seem to be the only person that's convinced it needs to be changed for your benefit, not for anyone else.

 

nah, I had stopped arguing, till other good points were added, then I started supporting those points only. then it hit me that from the start if it was supposed to be equal to everyone, because of pets it's not, MMs can just drag summoned pets into a mob and have at them. they just have to basically walk through stuff.

 

I've just been playing around in old mids and didn't even finish slotting stuff. I'm getting over 100 def to most and 99.8 or 95.8 def to the rest, 57% SL res, 40% else except toxic crap tonnes of regen and recovery. to hit, haste and damage is low but, hey, better than nothing. and I slotted like 4 powers. haven't even placed all the slots yet 42 to go no enhancements in most. oh and I barely have all my toggles on atm.. so.. wow. this is not a squishy AT at all. masterminds are solid.

 

but they can get afterburner in combat. how broken is that?

 

yet I'm asking for another 18.8% def in combat on my blaster and you freak out like it's going to destroy the game.

[RogerWilco]

There are my two cents:

 

1. I always liked games like this, and the pen-n-paper games like GURPS and Star Wars: SAGA Edition, because they decoupled your powers and abilities from your backstory and how you got them. Things like the Patron powers are only linked to the in game missions if you want to. If your headcannon makes how your character got them different, then that's fine too. It's a strong superhero trope to be the odd one out. Think Blade and all the "other vampires".  You can be the Daywalker.
   SW: SAGA edition stressed in it's chapter on classes that you could be a Jedi without any levels in the Jedi Class, or have many levels in the Jedi Class and not be a Jedi or Sith, but Chirrut Imwe.
   I see City of Heroes in the same way.
2. I always understood City of Heroes to not be a game that tries to achieve "balance". I think in games like World of Warcraft, it was the death of the game when PvP was introduced and everything had to be viable and balanced. City of Heroes wants to give you freedom of choice and fun options. And that means some options are weaker or have gaps in what they can do. It's not designed to make every option equally viable. I have a friend who plays really whacky characters as a result, and we have a lot of fun, but solo he would struggle at -1. (I think one has Plant Control/Nature Affinity).

[The Godchild]

1 hour ago, Joshex said:

yet I'm asking for another 18.8% def in combat on my blaster and you freak out like it's going to destroy the game.

 

Because blasters shouldn't have access to that much defense from a single power outside of an epic? Blasters are suppose to be squishy...they've always been that way. If you want defense on a blaster, you have to put in the work and effort for the sets...not grumble about a power that has no use in combat because its purpose is intended for out-of-combat.

 

Or roll a Sentinel if you're so determined to get defense...the whole reason for that AT is pairing ranged with survival.

 

Also, can a mod just lock this thread already? Points have been made...now its just arguing semantics. Please and thanks.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by The Godchild

[Joshex]

24 minutes ago, The Godchild said:

 

Because blasters shouldn't have access to that much defense outside of an epic defense power? Blasters are suppose to be squishy...they've always been that way. If you want defense on a blaster, you have to put in the work and effort for the sets...not grumble about a power that has no use in combat because its purpose is intended for out-of-combat.

 

Or roll a Sentinel if you're so determined to get defense...the whole reason for that AT is pairing ranged with survival.

 

Also, can a mod just lock this thread already? Points have been made...now its just arguing semantics. Please and thanks.

actually new points are being made as the conversation goes forwards.

 

in the last page we covered that we could lower the def output of the power in battle

 

On this page we clarified that MM's can actually use it in battle technically (which is a major accidental hack that I'm sure the devs didn't consider when they made it.)

 

I mean if we lowered the def output to 6% def base in battle, I think only masterminds would complain, and even then, not really. I mean it's the difference between like 150% def and 170% for them. I mean I just slapped stuff on there and it's ridiculous, sl and psi are capped at 75% res, everything else is either high 60s or toxic which is 30's. and I haven't even activated force of nature yet..

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Joshex

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Joshex said:

On this page we clarified that MM's can actually use it in battle technically (which is a major accidental hack that I'm sure the devs didn't consider when they made it.)

Well firstly, a MM can do this without Afterburner or PFF or Rest active.  It's called "Attack My Target" and they can sit leisurely in an adjacent room 100% safe.

 

Secondly, those MMs that do that (send their pets to attack stuff or sit in a safe bubble with only affecting self effect) get their inherent turned off.  That is, those pets get 0 from your Supremacy buffs.

 

Thirdly, because of the way pets work, they are -1/-2 levels to the MM so any foe that is +1 or +2 to your MM, they will be +2 or +4 to your pets.  Any foes that are +4 to you are +5 to +6.  Basically, in any circumstance that you can keep yourself safe and have your pets do the work like in the above examples, your pets are practically useless because they won't be able to hit anything, they'd hardly do any damage and they will die without any of your auras and/or buffs.

 

I don't think it was an accidental hack.  MMs have their own shortcomings and advantages they get with their powers.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Naraka

[Joshex]

14 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Well firstly, a MM can do this without Afterburner or PFF or Rest active.  It's called "Attack My Target" and they can sit leisurely in an adjacent room 100% safe.

 

Secondly, those MMs that do that (send their pets to attack stuff or sit in a safe bubble with only affecting self effect) get their inherent turned off.  That is, those pets get 0 from your Supremacy buffs.

 

Thirdly, because of the way pets work, they are -1/-2 levels to the MM so any foe that is +1 or +2 to your MM, they will be +2 or +4 to your pets.  Any foes that are +4 to you are +5 to +6.  Basically, in any circumstance that you can keep yourself safe and have your pets do the work like in the above examples, your pets are practically useless because they won't be able to hit anything, they'd hardly do any damage and they will die without any of your auras and/or buffs.

 

I don't think it was an accidental hack.  MMs have their own shortcomings and advantages they get with their powers.

it's an accidental survival hack. with the numbers I'm seeing here, +4 or even +5 probably wont actually be able to take out this MM, he could just sit in a mob of them and not die. He could tank lord recluse...

 

for killing mobs, all it'd have to do is just drop the "only effecting self" toggles summon all the pets,  put the toggles up and continue. mobs wont be able to strike it, sure they can kill the pets after a bit, but.. it'd be a futile endeavor.

 

I mean even without it, MMs are OP. 45 def to all, SL res capped, swinging in with pets. very OP. add 20 def all.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Joshex

[Naraka]

30 minutes ago, Joshex said:

it's an accidental survival hack.

Like I said before, it's not.  This "hack" was something MMs could always do ever since pet commands were introduced.  Was probably the desired structure of the AT before Bodyguard mode was implemented, actually.

 

32 minutes ago, Joshex said:

with the numbers I'm seeing here, +4 or even +5 probably wont actually be able to take out this MM, he could just sit in a mob of them and not die. He could tank lord recluse...

I think you don't understand the circumstances here.  Yes, a Blaster can also pick up PFF or Hibernate and "tank" Lord Recluse, but they won't be doing any damage.  A MM can sit in a bubble and not die but neither will the foes.  And when you finally do decide to take out your foes, you'll likely have more pets to resummon.

 

Have you, by chance, played a Mastermind before?

 

36 minutes ago, Joshex said:

for killing mobs, all it'd have to do is just drop the "only effecting self" toggles summon all the pets,  put the toggles up and continue. mobs wont be able to strike it, sure they can kill the pets after a bit, but.. it'd be a futile endeavor.

How would it be a futile endeavor?  Once your pets are dead, not only are you more vulnerable without bodyguard mode, but your means of doing damage is now gone and the only way to rectify such a situation is to run away and resummon.

 

But lets not mince words here, if this was an "accidental survival hack", why did such an effect remain in the power Personal Force Field or Phase Shift since the AT's inception without some review of this combo being done to fix it?  I feel, any benefit MM gets from Afterburner because of the circumstances of its use are wholly intentional.

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, Joshex said:

I mean even without it, MMs are OP. 45 def to all, SL res capped, swinging in with pets. very OP. add 20 def all.

Oh man.  I just literally laughed out loud for a good minute there.  I needed it.  Thanks!

[The Godchild]

3 hours ago, Joshex said:

45 def to all, SL res capped, swinging in with pets. very OP. add 20 def all.

Uhhhh....now I REALLY have to ask: why are you assuming soft cap s/l def AND res cap? Pretty sure that's flat out impossible to do since the majority of your set bonuses are gonna be geared towards +def...not +res to any degree beyond the 'norm' of probably landing around 40% unless you take a +res epic...and then your defense would drop considerably. Even taking powers like force field or sonic res can't get your numbers up 'that' high unless you intentionally gimped your build to take a bunch of +def powers, the situational 'oh shit!' clickies from the newer pool sets or invest in PFF which is pretty much double AB's defense but still has the 'only affecting self' tag and gives you +res ontop of that.

 

Only true melee AT's (and sentinels) can pull def soft caps and res caps at the same time..and even then its quite a bit of set work effort to get those kinda numbers since no single armor set is perfectly setup to give you optimal of both stats, its either resistance or defense as the primary focus depending on the set.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by The Godchild

[Joshex]

1 hour ago, The Godchild said:

Uhhhh....now I REALLY have to ask: why are you assuming soft cap s/l def AND res cap? Pretty sure that's flat out impossible to do since the majority of your set bonuses are gonna be geared towards +def...not +res to any degree beyond the 'norm' of probably landing around 40% unless you take a +res epic...and then your defense would drop considerably. Even taking powers like force field or sonic res can't get your numbers up 'that' high unless you intentionally gimped your build to take a bunch of +def powers, the situational 'oh shit!' clickies from the newer pool sets or invest in PFF which is pretty much double AB's defense but still has the 'only affecting self' tag and gives you +res ontop of that.

 

Only true melee AT's (and sentinels) can pull def soft caps and res caps at the same time..and even then its quite a bit of set work effort to get those kinda numbers since no single armor set is perfectly setup to give you optimal of both stats, its either resistance or defense as the primary focus depending on the set.

 

uhh, ok, you go have fun with that.

https://imgur.com/EBeIC

I could actually trade for a few more slots on attacks, the def powers alone are pretty good, as you can see I didn't even have to turn on any epics. I could trade them for attacks and rearrange things. as I said I was just messing around to see how far on the def side I could go. the res seemed to come on it's own.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Joshex said:

uhh, ok, you go have fun with that.

https://imgur.com/EBeIC

I could actually trade for a few more slots on attacks, the def powers alone are pretty good, as you can see I didn't even have to turn on any epics. I could trade them for attacks and rearrange things. as I said I was just messing around to see how far on the def side I could go. the res seemed to come on it's own.

You have PFF turned on dude.

[Joshex]

Ok so yeah, MM's have powers that grant insane def. some are only effecting self. but Afterburner is a pool power available to all ATs seems a bit unfair to make it a MM def power..

[Joshex]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

You have PFF turned on dude.

yeah it came with the MM secondary. it's "only effecting self" yes. but it's a secondary. not a pool power, so as a secondary it's understandable it'd be built for an MM to take advantage of. where as pool powers should be for everyone not just a single AT.

[Wavicle]

So now afterburner is OP? Your argument seems to be incoherent.