Kinetic Melee Power Siphon

[SableShrike]

This power could use some looking at; as it stands it's a clunky mechanic that prevents you from utilizing the bigger hits in the set effectively.

 

To get the most out of it, you are restricted to using the smaller, faster hits at T1, 2, and 3.  Not many other power sets box you in like Kinetic Melee does.

 

The main way I can think of fixing this; have Siphon stacks last much longer.  Say even for ten seconds.  This would allow you to actually use the slower attacks as they were meant to be used with the set's theme mechanic.

 

An alternative I also like could be similar to Fortify Pack; Power Siphon's -dam/+dam is always active, and clicking the power only gives you a +ToHit buff.

 

Either of these would give you a better uptime for Siphon stacks and keep from pigeonholing the power set.

 

I've currently got it in my build, but took it way later on.  My Brute gets far more value out of Fury which costs no power pick or slots.  Honestly, I could have skipped Siphon altogether but it's thematic to the power set.

 

With Energy Melee getting a rework soon, Kinetic is going to need some similar love to be a unique set with valuable special mechanics.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

the siphon works remarkably well with stalkers. I think the true problem that needs to be addressed is cast times. If your higher T powers had faster cast time they could take advantage of the siphon easier and often. However cast time issues are not solely limited to this powerset. There are other threads that address this issue. 

[SableShrike]

Good point about Stalkers.  We should point out they’re an outlier though as they get a real Build Up instead of the Power Siphon other melee versions do.

 

I was considering suggesting every AT get the Build Up version, but that’s just avoiding fixing what makes the set unique.

 

i like the idea of the Siphon stacks, but the current implementation doesn’t work well in actual gameplay.

 

I do agree about animation times, but that’s kind of a general topic with big implications for melee DPS.

 

Fixing one set’s lacklustre mechanic is probably more likely to get done before a huge melee rebalancing.

Edited June 5, 2020 by SableShrike

[Naraka]

Why not just make it so powers like Repulsing Torrent or Burst providing multiple stacks.  If I'm not mistaken, either of those attacks don't give any Power Siphon stacks while its active.  If you can just reach the max of 5 quicker, you have more time to use Concentrated Strike.  You might even be able to pass off CS having a chance of "refreshing" the stacks' durations in or out of Power Siphon's effect, basically giving you a longer effect that way.

[ShardWarrior]

4 hours ago, SableShrike said:

The main way I can think of fixing this; have Siphon stacks last much longer.  Say even for ten seconds.  This would allow you to actually use the slower attacks as they were meant to be used with the set's theme mechanic.

This 3000 please.  I love my KM/Nin scrapper, but Power Siphon is very lackluster.  Any improvements are welcome.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

4 hours ago, SableShrike said:

Good point about Stalkers.  We should point out they’re an outlier though as they get a real Build Up instead of the Power Siphon other melee versions do.

 

I was considering suggesting every AT get the Build Up version, but that’s just avoiding fixing what makes the set unique.

 

i like the idea of the Siphon stacks, but the current implementation doesn’t work well in actual gameplay.

 

I do agree about animation times, but that’s kind of a general topic with big implications for melee DPS.

 

Fixing one set’s lacklustre mechanic is probably more likely to get done before a huge melee rebalancing.

100% true just pointing out that rebalancing cast times across the board would fix this and a slew of other issues. IMO fixing just power siphon is treating a symptom while fixing cast times treats the disease.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Saiyajinzoningen

[Redlynne]

Power Siphon seems to use the clunkiest game mechanics possible on Brutes, Scrappers and Tankers that is just far too gimicky because of the implementation of the Grant Power buff method it uses.

 

I keep wondering what Kinetic Melee would be like if the whole -Damage to $Target(s) for +Damage to You system were reworked in a way that means while Power Siphon is not in effect, the -Damage to $Target(s) effects of Kinetic Melee powers do not stack from the same caster ... but as soon as Power Siphon is in effect, and for the duration of Power Siphon's effect, that limitation gets altered ... such that with Power Siphon running the -Damage to $Target(s) effects of Kinetic Melee powers CAN stack from the same caster(!) AND those same powers will also add +Damage buffing to the caster which can ALSO stack for the same caster.

 

In other words, Power Siphon would behave more like a "Limit Break" type of release on the +/- Damage potential of Kinetic Melee.

Such a change would (of course) mean that you would get the greatest benefit out of Power Siphon by having greater uptime, so as to be able to work "outside" the limits of the "does not stack from same caster" limitations on the powers.  And at that point, you give Concentrated Strike a reason to exist as an instant recharge of Power Siphon, granting increased uptime on Power Siphon regardless of overall build recharge affecting Power Siphon.  You can either mega global recharge your way to a high proportion of uptime on Power Siphon, or you can "shortcut" your way there with high critical hit chances culminating in Concentrated Strike without mega global recharge.

 

I'm thinking that the whole Do The Same Thing But Without The Limitations™ factor would have been a better implementation of Power Siphon on Brutes, Scrappers and Tankers for the "roller coaster ride" feeling that the powerset was aiming for but didn't quite manage to reach.

[SableShrike]

So if I follow, RedLynne, you’re thinking that one stack of Siphon should always be possible, but activating Power Siphon would let you go as high as five stacks?

 

Pretty interesting compromise of “always on” versus “activated”.

 

Would you agree with increasing Siphon stack duration still?  I’m thinking we’d still need that to make Concentrated Strike not kill your ability to keep max stacks up.

 

The other option of Burst adding multiple stacks was good, too.  Currently it adds one despite number of targets hit.

 

Maybe have the bigger hits add more stacks similar to the mechanic we see in Savage Melee?

Edited June 6, 2020 by SableShrike

[Saiyajinzoningen]

how about making kinetic melee more like the kinetics support powerset.

 

each attacks secondary effect siphons various things from foes something like

 

quick strike = smashing damage + siphons damage 

body blow  = smashing damage + siphons recharge speed

smashing blow = smashing damage + siphons movement speed

Repulsing torrent = still does nothing to do with the set (lol)

power siphon = now functions like a very very long recharging fulcrum shift and is unaffected by by global recharge changes.

burst = smashing damage +siphons regeneration

Focused burst = smashing damage + siphons endurance

Concentrated strike = smashing damage + siphons defense (smashing lethal)

 

Not sure if this would be the best order or if the siphons would stack or how long each buff would last. I'm sure all that could be ironed out in test tho.

[Redlynne]

31 minutes ago, SableShrike said:

So if I follow, RedLynne, you’re thinking that one stack of Siphon should always be possible, but activating Power Siphon would let you go as high as five stacks?

 

Pretty interesting compromise of “always on” versus “activated”.

 

Would you agree with increasing Siphon stack duration still?  I’m thinking we’d still need that to make Concentrated Strike not kill your ability to keep max stacks up.

Misinterpretation of what I was saying.

 

Power Siphon, as a power, would either be ON or OFF.  If you recast before the duration expires, then Power Siphon would simply overwrite itself to extend the duration, rather than any kind of stacking of Power Siphon nonsense.

 

Instead, what would happen is that the other powers in the set would be recoded to do one thing while Power Siphon was OFF and the same thing "but more" while Power Siphon was ON.  It would look a lot like how Swap Ammo works for Dual Pistols (except that's a toggle rather than a click) or how Momentum works for Titan Weapons (works one way without it and a different way with it).

 

So to give you a more concrete example here's how things would restructure.

 

Original Quick Strike (Scrapper) effects

Self:

• Grant power: Power Siphon
  If source.Mode?(kSiphonMode)

Target:

• 39.41 Smashing damage
• 13.14 Energy damage
• 0.7 Knockback (25% chance)
• 0.7 Knockback (25% chance)
• 59.29 Smashing damage
• 19.76 Energy damage
• 79.05 Energy damage (5% chance)
• 52.55 Energy damage (5% chance)
  If (target.arch == Class_Minion_Grunt) or (target.arch == Class_Minion_Small) or (target.arch == Class_Minion_Pets) or (target.arch == Class_Minion_Swarm)
• 52.55 Energy damage (10% chance)
  If not ((target.arch == Class_Minion_Grunt) or (target.arch == Class_Minion_Small) or (target.arch == Class_Minion_Pets) or (target.arch == Class_Minion_Swarm) or (target.enttype == player))
• -5.625% Dmg(Smashing, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative) for 4s

 

Basically, the only thing I would be changing would be the Self (Grant Power) parts and the -Damage part.  Everything else would remain as is.
Here's how that would shift.

 

First, you delete the whole Self (Grant Power) stuff entirely.

 

Second, you do this instead ... and I'm going to write the programming in layman's terms just for clarity of intent.

 

Self:

• +5.625% Dmg(Smashing, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative) for 8s
  if Power Siphon active

Target:

• -5.625% Dmg(Smashing, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative) for 4s
  if Power Siphon not active
• -5.625% Dmg(Smashing, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative) for 8s
  if Power Siphon active

Now I want you to pay attention to the  icon, which if you mouseover you will realize is the "Does not stack from same caster" icon you see on powers at City of Data.

As you can see, the "Does not stack from same caster" attribute is in effect when Power Siphon is NOT active, but then gets removed when Power Siphon IS active, allowing the +/- Damage effect to be stacked when using Quick Strike.  The only other change that I've made here is to double the duration of the +/- Damage effect while Power Siphon is active so as to enable "deeper" stacking of the effect with repeated uses.  The Damage buff/debuff factor is a straight 1 to 1 of debuff them to buff you.

 

Also note that the attack applies the exact same Damage debuff amount per attack whether Power Siphon is active or not.  The only difference is that when Power Siphon is OFF there is no "leeching" of Damage buffing, the duration of the effect is half what it would be with Power Siphon ON ... AND while Power Siphon is OFF the effect does not stack, while with Power Siphon ON the effect DOES stack with itself.

 

 

 

Apply the same formula to all the other Kinetic Melee powers, in which the Damage buff/debuff offers 2x duration and +Damage to Self for that duration in equal measure to the -Damage debuff and the "Does not stack from same caster" limitation is REMOVED while Power Siphon is ON and you've basically created a conditional under which Kinetic Melee behaves one way without Power Siphon ... and a different way with Power Siphon.

 

At that point, you can start to quibble over how long the +/- Damage multipliers to duration ought to be (I'm picking 2x here just for simplicity of illustration of concept) as well as how long the duration on Power Siphon itself (as a buff enabling these changes in all the other powers) ought to be.  Taking a quick perusal of the Scrapper Kinetic Melee powerset on City of Data, I see base durations for +/- Damage effects at 4, 5, 7 and 8 seconds ... which with a 2x multiplier would turn into 8, 10, 14 and 16 seconds of duration under Power Siphon using this framework.

 

Note that the way this would work out in actual gameplay would broadly mimic the ramp up/ramp down of how Power Siphon works currently ... except that by tying it into the powers themselves this way, the ramp up/ramp down would depend greatly upon the "shape" of the attack chain being used while Power Siphon is active, since different chains would result in different ramp up/ramp down stacking and timing behaviors.

 

It might become necessary to rebalance the duration of Power Siphon from 20s down to something like 12-15s due to this enabling of stacking behavior, because those buffs/debuffs will "overhang" beyond the duration that Power Siphon itself remains active.  For example, a power like Burst with a 7s base duration would have a 14s duration if activated while Power Siphon is active ... meaning that if Burst was activated at 14s of elapsed Power Siphon duration, the effects of Burst would take advantage of the Power Siphon "enabling" of effects, which would initiate at 16.67s after Power Siphon activated (due to animation time of 2.67s on Burst).  The +/- Damage buff/debuff effects from Burst would then expire at 14s after that at 30.67s after Power Siphon had begun its effects.

 

-1.93s ... Activate Power Siphon, begin animation

+0s ... Power Siphon animation ends and effects begin

[...]

+14s ... Activate Burst, begin animation

+15s ... Power Siphon buff expires

+16.67s ... Burst animation ends and +/- Damage buff/debuff enabled by Power Siphon begins because power was Activated while Power Siphon was in effect

+30.67s ... +/- Damage buff/debuff enabled by Power Siphon expires

 

So I'm thinking that "shaving" the duration on Power Siphon down from 20s to 15s would be warranted, so as to maintain the 30s overall duration of ramp up/ramp down behavior would remain in force.  You'd be able to stack the +/- Damage buff/debuff higher thanks to the enabled ability to stack those buffs (and the AoEs would be extremely useful for this!) but the amount of +Damage buffing to yourself could potentially diverge from the -Damage debuff stacking on individual $Targets ... because if you switch $Targets, you might still have +Damage buffing stacked from elsewhere but haven't built up as deep a stack of -Damage debuffing onto that specific individual $Target yet.  This would be a differential factor in use of AoEs (due to the "many of them, only one of me" factor) mainly, but also a point to remember when switching single targets.  Just because your +Damage buff is X doesn't mean that the -Damage debuff on anything and everything you hit will ALSO ipso facto be X as well.  Against a single hard target like a GM/AV it probably will be, but against Minions and Rikti Monkeys ... not so much ... so there's some interesting peculiarities in different use cases as to the relative "value" of the +/- Damage buff/debuff element based on how "concentrated" you make your attacks on particular $Targets.

 

 

 

Hope that helps explain better.

[Android Nim]

IMHO rework the mechanics if necessary but make it a toggle

 

If you build it...they will come

[MTeague]

I still want a Support/Melee or a Melee/Support AT, so I can use Kinetics and Kinetic Melee together and Power Siphon Siphon Power or Siphon Power Power Siphon chains.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

18 hours ago, MTeague said:

I still want a Support/Melee or a Melee/Support AT, so I can use Kinetics and Kinetic Melee together and Power Siphon Siphon Power or Siphon Power Power Siphon chains.

this would be a melee buffer type char ergo "paladin" class that has been requested multiple times. There are balancing issues to consider but i'm all for it cause more options means more flexibility and more fun.

[Myrmidon]

On 6/5/2020 at 5:31 AM, SableShrike said:

 

With Energy Melee getting a rework soon, Kinetic is going to need some similar love to be a unique set with valuable special mechanics.