The Apple Transition To ARM

[pauper_ill]

7 hours ago, WanderingAries said:

@pauper_ill, can you try the following for the New launcher? You'll likely need the Rosetta 2 installed I'd imagine,

 

 

 

Rosetta 2 was one of the first things I ended up installing on my M1 Mac, so that's not an issue.

 

When I tried to complete the install using the provided instructions for the Mac installer, I had no issue doing the install, but on launch, I get a minimized CoH window.

 

 

I can hear the login music and I can hear the keystroke beep sounds if I type, but if I expand the minimized window, I get nothing but a black screen.

I'm assuming this has to do with Rosetta not translating OpenGL to Metal, as there are a number of reports that OpenGL libraries are 'broken' on M1 Macs. (it's not specifically a Big Sur thing, but Big Sur is the only supported OS on Apple silicon -- the official dev document notes that OpenGL is 'available' but deprecated on Apple silicon-- https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/porting_your_macos_apps_to_apple_silicon )

 

--

Pauper

Edited January 10, 2021 by pauper_ill

[WanderingAries]

15 hours ago, pauper_ill said:

I'm assuming this has to do with Rosetta not translating OpenGL to Metal, as there are a number of reports that OpenGL libraries are 'broken' on M1 Macs. (it's not specifically a Big Sur thing, but Big Sur is the only supported OS on Apple silicon -- the official dev document notes that OpenGL is 'available' but deprecated on Apple silicon-- https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/porting_your_macos_apps_to_apple_silicon )

 

--

Pauper

Ok then, yeah, that's probably the linch pin for that as it requires the OpenGL. Hopefully someone will decide to write new libraries for general compatibility, unofficially of course.

[WanderingAries]

I guess that leaves someone trying ARM based Bootcamp next.

[pauper_ill]

5 hours ago, WanderingAries said:

I guess that leaves someone trying ARM based Bootcamp next.

Unfortunately, that's likely not going to happen, as Bootcamp as it exists now doesn't run on ARM (it's built for x86 processors), and Apple has already stated that if MS wants Windows to run on ARM, that's up to them:

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/apple-m1-bootcamp-windows-microsoft

 

I can already confirm that I can't configure Bootcamp on my M1 Mac mini.

 

--

Pauper

[Apparition]

Honestly, it's not looking good at all for gaming on Macs as Elder Scrolls Online will not support new Macs and Guild Wars 2 just announced the end of all Mac support completely.

 

In addition, from what I've been hearing elsewhere, Rosetta 2 is a stopgap measure that is only expected to be supported for a couple of years. 

[Flintlock Burnfur]

That sucks, but I guess expected.  Mac's Catalina dropped all 32-bit support which screwed me over when I updated from High Sierra to Catalina.  It tried updating to Big Sur, but I've had my doubts about that system.  Presently waiting for Wine to release something for Catalina that actually works outside of Homebrew and cask.

[pauper_ill]

15 hours ago, Apparition said:

Honestly, it's not looking good at all for gaming on Macs as Elder Scrolls Online will not support new Macs and Guild Wars 2 just announced the end of all Mac support completely.

Yeah, I don't blame you for feeling like it's a return to the bad old days of Mac gaming -- though I will point out that Blizzard has already released an M1-native World of Warcraft client, so it's not as though everyone is abandoning the field.

 

15 hours ago, Apparition said:

In addition, from what I've been hearing elsewhere, Rosetta 2 is a stopgap measure that is only expected to be supported for a couple of years. 

Eh, I'd say less 'stopgap' and more 'temporary utility to give developers time to develop native versions of their apps'. If a developer doesn't want to do an M1 native version (and get the performance benefits that entails), they are likely either not all that enthusiastic about the Mac platform, or their a group like Homecoming that's more volunteer-based and simply doesn't have the resources to do so despite the desire. In the latter case, the community can go far to develop work-arounds, as long as the devs are willing to support them.

 

--

Pauper

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, pauper_ill said:

Yeah, I don't blame you for feeling like it's a return to the bad old days of Mac gaming -- though I will point out that Blizzard has already released an M1-native World of Warcraft client, so it's not as though everyone is abandoning the field.

Yeah, but Blizzard has Stupid Money (aka FU Money) and nearly 5 MILLION subscribers still.

And if they're alone in the field...
If you wanna game on an M1, it's going to be WoW.
Captive audience.

 

 

[Golden Azrael]

Mac and CoH.  Buy a Windows PC.  You'll get a cheap Windows PC that will run it ez.  Same if you want games in general.

 

The Mac Pro is ridiculous.  Price wise.  A joke.  

 

Just get a 3080 Nv and the latest 12 core AMD.  Far cheaper.  And you'll get an 8k display cheaper than their 6k display.  Or save loads by just going for a decent 4k display.

 

Me?  I bought the last 5k Intel iMac.  It doesn't run even a 2004 game without overheating.  An 8 man team or a fire farm will get teh single fan kicking up a fuss.  Why?  I don't know why.  The 10 core Intel?  The 5700 gpu?  Both down clocked.  In fact, stuff my 2012 iMac did cause the fan on this to fuss.

 

Unfortunate timing of when I bought it.  I should have waited and bought a PC tower and the new Mac Mini M1.  I'd had both for the same amount of money.

 

But yes.  I can dual boot Mac PC.

 

I'll go M1 Mac at some point.  Despite what some are saying it will usher in a golden age of gaming.  Eventually.  When you're part of a 1 billion unit eco system...you can see why Apple has done it.  Control.  Hardware and software efficiency and optimisation.  And heat!  You can't push an iMac without it fussing.  Same with the laptops on Intel etc.

 

It's not like the Mac was ever 1st class in gaming even after it went to Intel.  And no NV gpus and yet still some Mac users throw themselves over the Mac coffin to defend that.

 

It's always been 2nd class apart from the early Lucas Games and Bungies Marathon era.  Millions of iPad and iPhone apps will work on the M1 Macs.  And that gravitational effect will usher in the £££ from other developers to do more 'traditional' console/PC games.  Apple have control over the api now.  The store.  The machines.  The cpus.  The gpus.  The new M1 Macs are remarkable.  But that comes with a short term price.

 

And that's CoH.

 

Maybe there will be Open GL to Vulkan to Metal cross polination at some point.  

 

If you like Mac.  Any of the up and coming M1 or M1x or M2 Macs will blow the doors off for what Macs 'do' and when you're outside of that envelop your PC 3080/AMD 12 core will be a multi tasking beast with game streaming whilst you render ray tracing in the background.

 

Azrael.

 

Ps.  There is already plenty of gaming on the new M1 Macs.  WoW was alright.  I've benched it.  Runs ok on the 'last' Intel iMac.  Decent settings and all: Quad HD 100 FPS.  Np.  But it's no CoH.  If you're on an M1 Mac you have access to all those mobile phone and pad games.  Many of which are quite good.  And affordable.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Golden Azrael

[GM Tock]

On 1/11/2021 at 7:36 PM, pauper_ill said:

In the latter case, the community can go far to develop work-arounds, as long as the devs are willing to support them.

And keeping in mind Codeweavers Crossover is the paid version of Wine, it'll be (a non trivial) matter of time before Wine is patched to work on Apple Silicon.  Whether that includes some caveats, if there's a gotcha involved due to Apple-involved changes in the future, or if Codeweavers wants to hold on to monetizing this development for it's own sake for a bit.  All of which are valid.

 

In any case, THANK YOU for giving it a spin on all of our behalf.  I really appreciate it.

[WanderingAries]

Confirmed what's mentioned above on an M1 + Rosetta 2. Upon initial launch you Can try to adjust the size of that "window", but it's all white if you do and the Second the game's login has likely loaded, it snaps to just the controls. If I understood Wine enough to control window sizing or to force the launcher to use Windowed, then I 'might' have a chance at seeing things, but that's a weak might.

 

It's complaining about compatibility as well, but I'm trying the standard Parallels 16 on it when I can get a VM imported. I'm also going to see what happens when I try bootcamp for the hell of it.

[pauper_ill]

20 hours ago, WanderingAries said:

I'm trying the standard Parallels 16 on it when I can get a VM imported.

Today is the last day of my Crossover free trial, so I may try the 14-day Parallels free trial after to contrast and compare.

 

Crossover is $39 with no support, $59 with support, but has been really spotty with other Windows based games thus far on my M1 Mac mini. I suspect Parallels will be a more consistently useful option, but the $79 price tag is a bit steeper for the privilege. (There's also a $99 per year license, but I doubt I'll use that one.)

 

Good luck with Bootcamp -- as I noted above, when I tried to launch the BootCamp Assistant, I got a dialog: "BootCamp Assistant cannot be used. This Mac does not support BootCamp."

 

--

Pauper

[WanderingAries]

6 minutes ago, pauper_ill said:

Today is the last day of my Crossover free trial, so I may try the 14-day Parallels free trial after to contrast and compare.

 

Crossover is $39 with no support, $59 with support, but has been really spotty with other Windows based games thus far on my M1 Mac mini. I suspect Parallels will be a more consistently useful option, but the $79 price tag is a bit steeper for the privilege. (There's also a $99 per year license, but I doubt I'll use that one.)

 

Good luck with Bootcamp -- as I noted above, when I tried to launch the BootCamp Assistant, I got a dialog: "BootCamp Assistant cannot be used. This Mac does not support BootCamp."

 

--

Pauper

We'll see, but I like poking things I shouldn't, so it's more about learning and experience right now. 😛

[Hyperstrike]

20 minutes ago, pauper_ill said:

Today is the last day of my Crossover free trial, so I may try the 14-day Parallels free trial after to contrast and compare.

 

Crossover is $39 with no support, $59 with support, but has been really spotty with other Windows based games thus far on my M1 Mac mini. I suspect Parallels will be a more consistently useful option, but the $79 price tag is a bit steeper for the privilege. (There's also a $99 per year license, but I doubt I'll use that one.)

 

Good luck with Bootcamp -- as I noted above, when I tried to launch the BootCamp Assistant, I got a dialog: "BootCamp Assistant cannot be used. This Mac does not support BootCamp."

 

--

Pauper

Considering the CPU is an entirely different, non x86 architecture, I'd be absolutely FLOORED if BootCamp (which is just an elaborate boot manager for multi-boot) would work.

[WanderingAries]

****This is not a permanent solution****

Testing performed on a M1 Mac Mini / 256 Gb SSD, 8 Gb RAM, HDMI to a 40" HDTV / 1080p Max Rez

 

I'd like to start off with: I didn't come up with most of this on my own! There was some basic Google Researching involved and I basically followed this 9to5 Mac Article.

 

https://9to5mac.com/2020/12/22/run-windows-10-arm-m1-mac-apple-silicon-x64-x86-no-boot-camp-video/

 

The process starts with downloading the beta version of Parallels Desktop 16 that is being tested for M1 compatibility. For now, you only need an account to sign into the site and that is free. The trick here is that at Any point in the future, this will be merged into a live build that WILL be a paid purchase be it one-time or subscription. The beta page provides the file and a beta use only keycode for activation that Everyone uses. Again, this will only work during the testing phase.

 

Once I had that, I had to get the latest Win10-ARM Windows Insider Preview build. Basically, I used my MSFT account to link to a free Insider account and downloaded the file directly to the Mac. With Parallels installed, simply opening the file launched the VM's installer process. After a while it completed, I followed instructions in the Windows Update/Insider page, and restarted the VM. With the VM shut down, I tweaked a few settings even more than what the guide stated so I could get the most out of the Mac and it was obvious that I chose properly. Even with those settings tweaked, I had to toy with my audio settings in Parallels as at first it wasn't coming out of my TV speakers. While I was tweaking I triggered some obvious "did you Really mean to crank that up?" type warnings as I expected.

 

Note: I haven't figured out how to get the x64 to work, so the game only loads in x86 even though it asks you to install the x64 code before proceeding with the launcher opening.

 

Images of the tweaked settings:

 

 

It became Very obvious where the breaking point was with In-Game visuals, but the audio was awesome. I simply drag/dropped all of my CoX user files from my existing installation into the appropriate folders and that aspect was seamless! Gameplay was decent, but even with the tweak, the visuals had a noticeable issue at times. Some things would be off (color mostly) or just random issues with DoF handling (some things turned white in the distance occasionally during redraw).

 

Images from the Launcher:

 

 

The sum of it: Beyond the obvious hurdles, this CAN be done and without "hacking" the machine, but it WILL cost once this version of Parallels exits beta.

 

To do: I still need to test Bootcamp, but I think that may fail as I won't have an ISO of Win10-ARM to install from anyway.

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by WanderingAries
Images

[WanderingAries]

Images from launch:

Edited January 24, 2021 by WanderingAries

[WanderingAries]

Con't

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by WanderingAries

[WanderingAries]

The maximum (ignore the Rez) VFX I could push before the visuals basically exploded (but didn't crash!) are as follows:

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by WanderingAries

[WanderingAries]

One too many

Edited January 24, 2021 by WanderingAries

[Hyperstrike]

5 hours ago, WanderingAries said:

To do: I still need to test Bootcamp, but I think that may fail as I won't have an ISO of Win10-ARM to install from anyway.

And unless you manage to pirate one, you won't be able to get it.

Windows ARM is only sold on pre-installed systems.

[WanderingAries]

15 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

And unless you manage to pirate one, you won't be able to get it.

Windows ARM is only sold on pre-installed systems.

Is there a way to use the Parallels VM I have to create an ISO inside it (that I can pull out for use)?

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, WanderingAries said:

Is there a way to use the Parallels VM I have to create an ISO inside it (that I can pull out for use)?

Don't think so...

 

[WanderingAries]

Consider this a Nail in the Coffin (for now). I just tried running the BC Assistant and it flat says it's not compatible and quits after clicking the confirmation button.

[Shenanigunner]

I am sorry to hear all of this, just as one player to others.

 

But two thoughts occur to me. The first is that expecting ANY 16-year-old game to run on new platforms is a bit... optimistic. There are whole generations of Windows games that won't run on Wi7-10 without converters, OS emulators, etc. Going from 2006 Windows to 2021 Mac is... extreme in any case.

 

The other is that no one has to buy a new ARM Mac, and might want to think the investment through on many points besides the pinnacle one of CoH compatibility. ( 😜 )

 

After all, Apple has a long history of increasingly distancing from "computers" — seen any of the recent iPad ads, where the bright young spark changing the world doesn't even know what a "computer" is? — and absolutely every argument of the past 30 years aside (please!) it might be time to sunset Macs/MacOS and the "you really just want a big mobile device on your desk" mentality and future.

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Shenanigunner

[WanderingAries]

Very good points, but I'd like to throw some personal experience in here

 

5 hours ago, Shenanigunner said:

But two thoughts occur to me. The first is that expecting ANY 16-year-old game to run on new platforms is a bit... optimistic. There are whole generations of Windows games that won't run on Wi7-10 without converters, OS emulators, etc. Going from 2006 Windows to 2021 Mac is... extreme in any case.

Yeah, games aged and platforms change, so expectations should be realistic, but...

 

I have apps apps and games that I've been using since the Release of Windows 3.11 that Still run (albeit begrudgingly) on Windows 10. That's a slightly different beast with Apple as they've flipped platforms drastically two (?) times now and those are the times when pain is felt the most, but there's always been a solution until now.

 

As for the Mac side of long term compatibility, besides testing this and stuff for work, (because I could) I retested the compatibility of the GoG versions of The Journeyman Project Trilogy. I bring this up because because I'd played the game back in the mid 90s (first game is from 93 I think) and had been active in Tommy Yune's Journeyman Project forums. He looked me (and probably others) up somewhere between 5-10 yrs ago (?) to ask if I'd "smoke test" the remake of the first game for Linux/MacOS/Windows as they were secretly planning a rerelease to work on more modern platforms. I think it was about a month or so of testing later and we had viable ISOs that were sold physically and eventually on platforms like GoG (my preferences for PC because I hate DRM). Note: This was Volunteer work, but I did get a signed copy.

 

Why'd I bring that up? Because I managed to get that up and running on my M1 with probably nothing other than Rosetta 2 being installed. I didn't have to tweak anything or do any funky process. Now the older games I had to run within my Parllels/Win10 ARM environment as I didn't feel like finding the MacOS ISOs, but they worked mostly right. Pretty good for something built for 16 bit Windows using Quicktime too boot. Mind you, these likely had a wrapper of sorts to support x64 when on Win10, but ARM felt like a gamble and it was cool to see it pay off.

 

Quote

The other is that no one has to buy a new ARM Mac, and might want to think the investment through on many points besides the pinnacle one of CoH compatibility. ( 😜 )

The big caveat to this argument is that unless you intentionally buy an Intel Mac (assuming you need to get a Mac for reasons). Not to long from now (if not already), Apple will stop producing Intel Macs, period and anyone buying a Mac won't have a choice if their needs require modern/current equipment.

 

Granted, we don't Know how long this game will last either. Especially being a "work of love" as it is, so the reality is that we're already on borrowed time and I'd expect most understand that.