What Would You Change About Dominators?

[Mezmera]

10 minutes ago, kiramon said:

 

I give up. You don't understand. 

 

It's not a matter of what's possible -- it's a matter of the difference between

 

0 Cooldown 

0.1 + (Time to Build Bar).

 

Do you know the percentage increase .1+(30s) is over 0? 
Hint: The formula would be (30.1-0/0)*100; guess what number you can't divide by, and for good reason?

I do understand.  You're tossing up your hands saying doms are an impossibility.  You want Domination to be made easier which'll likely lead to a nerf to something within the mechanic compared to how it is currently because with every action there's an opposite and equal reaction.  

 

There's consequences with anything you do in this game, good and bad.  

 

I feel like I'm Schroeder from Charlie Brown trying to play you this symphony and you're Lucy complaining it's not right until I play some dull base 3-noted jingle.  😟

[kiramon]

1 minute ago, Mezmera said:

I do understand.  You're tossing up your hands saying doms are an impossibility.  You want Domination to be made easier which'll likely lead to a nerf to something within the mechanic compared to how it is currently because with every action there's an opposite and equal reaction.  

 

There's consequences with anything you do in this game, good and bad.  

 

I feel like I'm Schroeder from Charlie Brown trying to play you this symphony and you're Lucy complaining it's not right until I play some dull base 3-noted jingle.  😟

Nope, definitely don't understand.

Has nothing to do with Perma-Dom being an impossibility, and definitely has nothing to do with nerfing anything. 

[oedipus_tex]

Domination is a mechanic with a crash. Keeping it "perma" has more importance than keeping other kinds of powers, like Hasten, AM, Indomitable Will, etc. 

 

If I miss a Domination cycle, a few things happen. I don't get my bar refilled. The strength of my mezzes drops both in duration and magnitude. And I won't have mezz protection until I rebuild the bar.

 

I've found its the mezz protection that is the most punishing. The other two things are nice features, but are possible to work around. Losing mezz protection drops me about two difficulty levels down. I then have to rebuild the bar by fighting things, which is mainly done by using ranged blasts. Closing to melee at at a time when I 1) lack mezz protection and 2) have lost the ability to mezz bosses is not a productive approach. If I am on a difficult mission with lots of dying, that means most or all of it is spent playing keep away. This is also how I approach iTrials--it is counterproductive to engage in melee.

 

What it boils down to for me is that the mezz protection in Domination is precious and I should preserve it by avoiding getting too close. Against very easy enemies, say like the level 50s that hang out in the parking lots of Peregrine Island, it's fine. Against stuff tailored to kill Tankers and Scrappers, I drop like a Scrapper who forgot to turn on his or her armor powers. Faster, actually.

 

Psi Assault is the main exception, because of Drain Psyche. With that power I can engage directly and do okay. Combined specifically with Electric Control to sap endurance, I can lower the rate of incoming attacks enough to stand toe to toe with Scrappers, as long as circumstances are controlled. Getting hit with any amount of -Recharge and its lights out the moment Domination drops and I lose mezz protection.

 

Basically, with Domination as it is, if any piece of the puzzle is removed, I'm back to a midling Blaster with mezzes. Even with the massive Regen boost in Drain Psyche I sometimes die. Getting mezzed is a triple punishment--toggle powers drop, Domination bar stops building, and the control I'm supposed to be using as armor are unavailable. Have you ever tried using Arctic Air on a build without mezz protection? Brutal stuff.

I realize that the Dominator class will likely always be dangerous to play. But where it resides right now, its dangerous in a way that encourages "safe play." I'd like to have more reasons to use these various melee and PBAoE attacks. Right now I just don't feel they deliver reward for the risk. 

Edited July 31, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Mezmera]

1 minute ago, kiramon said:

Nope, definitely don't understand.

Has nothing to do with Perma-Dom being an impossibility, and definitely has nothing to do with nerfing anything. 

v

4 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

You want Domination to be made easier which'll likely lead to a nerf to something within the mechanic compared to how it is currently because with every action there's an opposite and equal reaction.  

 

[oedipus_tex]

I've had time to digest the idea a few folks posted above about removing the "bar build up" from Domination and making it a straight Recharge power. Doing that would mean it no longer crashes, so there would be no concept of "missing" a cycle. Domination breaks you out of mezz, so if it happened to recharge while you are mezzed, you'd break out.

 

Great idea, to the people who mentioned it. 

 

Here's an another idea: On Dominators, instantly fill the Dom bar if the player uses their AoE Hold. Or put mezz protection for the caster in the AoE hold. 

Edited July 31, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Chrome]

i am not understanding why people want to change it at all, remove the build up bar??? wtf?? how does that make it more fun, i propose adding those types of build up bars to all ATs that way they are more how i want to play.

[kiramon]

31 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

v

 

 

See this lovely chart?

 

See how that 45% goes up? That's actually the increases in number of hits taken (out of 1000) at 45, 44, 43 etc % defense. 

 

See how 223 to 222% has that HUGE gap?  That's dom recharge... 

 

HUGE. Difference. So huge, I can't even show you how much %  more 30.1 is over 0. 

 

Recharge	Dom Cooldown	Time Before Use	Bar Assumption
223%	0.0	0	0
222%	90.1	30.1	+30
221%	90.5	30.5	+30
220%	90.9	30.9	+30
219%	91.3	31.3	+30
218%	91.7	31.7	+30
217%	92.2	32.2	+30
216%	92.6	32.6	+30
Defense	% to be Hit	1000 hits-#Hits	% Diff
45%	5%	50	0%
44%	6%	60	20%
43%	7%	70	40%
42%	8%	80	60%
41%	9%	90	80%
40%	10%	100	100%
39%	11%	110	120%
38%	12%	120	140%

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by kiramon

[kiramon]

6 minutes ago, Chrome said:

i am not understanding why people want to change it at all, remove the build up bar??? wtf?? how does that make it more fun, i propose adding those types of build up bars to all ATs that way they are more how i want to play.

If perma dom didn't "refresh" the build up bar, sure.  If you use Dom, make it consume the build up bar then with +0 dom build up while Dom buff is active. (or allow you to build it in between so dom is "always ready", though I feel that's worse).

 

But it does. That's why we want to remove its polarizing nature. 

Edited July 31, 2020 by kiramon

[oedipus_tex]

4 minutes ago, kiramon said:

If perma dom didn't "refresh" the build up bar, sure.  If you use Dom, make it consume the build up bar then with +0 dom build up while Dom buff is active. (or allow you to build it in between so dom is "always ready", though I feel that's worse).

 

But it does. That's why we want to remove its polarizing nature. 

 

Although I'm unsure I'm entirely behind it and there may be other ways to achieve similar results, that's an excellent explanation. Thanks for that.

 

A possible alternative that meets half way would be powers that instantly or at least quickly recharge the bar. The AoE Holds and the T5 Assault self-buffs both have a lot of potential for that.

 

Even if the developers feel totally removing the bar is too extreme, would it be possible for the bar to be built in better/faster ways?

 

Right now the way it's built is pretty silly. You get it for activating attack powers. Powers that have no target give it to you even if they hit nothing. 

[Mezmera]

4 minutes ago, kiramon said:

If perma dom didn't "refresh" the build up bar, sure.  If you use Dom, make it consume the build up bar then with +0 dom build up while Dom buff is active. (or allow you to build it in between so dom is "always ready", though I feel that's worse).

 

But it does. That's why we want to remove its polarizing nature. 

We do understand everything you're saying.  It's polarizing to you because you find it polarizing, others don't.  One persons trash is another's treasure.  

 

Again everything you're saying boils down to: 

48 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

You want Domination to be made easier which'll likely lead to a nerf to something within the mechanic compared to how it is currently because with every action there's an opposite and equal reaction.

 

[kiramon]

8 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

Although I'm unsure I'm entirely behind it and there may be other ways to achieve similar results, that's an excellent explanation. Thanks for that.

 

A possible alternative that meets half way would be powers that instantly or at least quickly recharge the bar. The AoE Holds and the T5 Assault self-buffs both have a lot of potential for that.

 

Even if the developers feel totally removing the bar is too extreme, would it be possible for the bar to be built in better/faster ways?

 

Right now the way it's built is pretty silly. You get it for activating attack powers. Powers that have no target give it to you even if they hit nothing. 

 

Personally I don't think we need the button. You could create a scaling bar that has a % of the current dom stats (probably a little higher) that encourages, well, dominating. This would give a linear scaling to domination, where recharge is still valued but lacks any huge drop offs (except at 0 bar from doing, well, nothing.)

 

0 bar - 10 bar

1 bar = 1 mag, 2.5% Hit, 5 End reduction

10 Bar = 10 mag prot, 25% hit, 50% end reduction

 

*This is outside of the rest of this conversation with mez-dude, just a random idea

Edited July 31, 2020 by kiramon

[kiramon]

2 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

We do understand everything you're saying.  It's polarizing to you because you find it polarizing, others don't.  One persons trash is another's treasure.  

 

Again everything you're saying boils down to: 

 

Nobody wants domination to be easier. I don't understand why you are continuing suggest that people want it to be easier.  I think for some reason you think domination is hard. It's not. Nor is getting the recharge, we've already established that.

 

But why is there a TIMES INFINITY increase in amount of time to use dom between 122% and 123% recharge?  

[Mezmera]

4 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Right now the way it's built is pretty silly. You get it for activating attack powers. Powers that have no target give it to you even if they hit nothing. 

You can use your pbaoe's which require no target.  You can go find a far off target and interrupt snipe, unless you're somewhere like Khalisti or Ouro.  And my favorite, the p2w vendor sells thee snowball attack which you can use on targets, enemies and allies alike.  Solo it takes a few more seconds to fill and the larger the team the bar fills back up stupid fast.  Then yeah you can be a villain for the auto bar fill.  

[oedipus_tex]

The button has one useful feature that I feel like I should understand but don't. It seems to break you out of your current mezz even if it is stronger than your actual mezz protection. The only place I've noticed it is in AE content, when mobs are given the Dark Armor rezz power Soul Transfer that stuns nearby players, Mag 30. If Domination happens to recharge while you're stunned, you'll be unstunned. Then if another Soul Transfer goes off, you'll be restunned. I'm pretty sure this is how the boss guy at the end of the ITF works too.

 

Overall this is probably not a huge deal. It's just one of the weirder elements of Domination, and I've encountered it so rarely I'm not even sure if my observations are correct. 

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Mezmera said:

You can use your pbaoe's which require no target.  You can go find a far off target and interrupt snipe, unless you're somewhere like Khalisti or Ouro.  And my favorite, the p2w vendor sells thee snowball attack which you can use on targets, enemies and allies alike.  Solo it takes a few more seconds to fill and the larger the team the bar fills back up stupid fast.  Then yeah you can be a villain for the auto bar fill.  

 

I didn't know about the snowballs. I'll need to check it out.

 

If that's possible just giving us a power to instantly fill the bar should be justifiable.

[Mezmera]

3 minutes ago, kiramon said:

Nobody wants domination to be easier. I don't understand why you are continuing suggest that people want it to be easier.  I think for some reason you think domination is hard. It's not. Nor is getting the recharge, we've already established that.

 

But why is there a TIMES INFINITY increase in amount of time to use dom between 122% and 123% recharge?  

Okay then if it's not hard what's the complaint to change it?

 

There's set value goals to optimize just about anything.  The universe is made up by math.  

[Mezmera]

6 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

I didn't know about the snowballs. I'll need to check it out.

 

If that's possible just giving us a power to instantly fill the bar should be justifiable.

 

9 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Then yeah you can be a villain for the auto bar fill.

Sure what do I care if they'd like to just copy paste this to the Hero side. Or change it to Rogue and Vigilante whatever.  Never said I was against tweaks to other things within the dominator AT, just that Domination is fine as it is and has been.  

Edited July 31, 2020 by Mezmera

[oedipus_tex]

3 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Sure what do I care if they'd like to just copy paste this to the Hero side. Or change it to Rogue and Vigilante whatever.  Never said I was against tweaks to other things within the dominator AT, just that Domination is fine as it is and has been.  

 

It's fine if you believe that. Just it seems a lot of contributors do not. I realize this is a subject a lot of people are passsionate about so we appreciate your comments either way.

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Mezmera said:

I do understand.  You're tossing up your hands saying doms are an impossibility.  You want Domination to be made easier which'll likely lead to a nerf to something within the mechanic compared to how it is currently because with every action there's an opposite and equal reaction.  

 

There's consequences with anything you do in this game, good and bad.  

It's humourous because it is actually you that is arguing that domination should remain unfairly easy  to maintain for anyone that hits the magic 123% recharge. 

 

Hey I can understand why you don't want the devs to look too closely at domination, that bar that needs to be actively filled was probably put in there for a reason. I mean perma doms don't even have to fill the bar, you just stand at wentworths maintaining domination which is likely not what was originally intended.

 

but I can assure you doms are safe. they underperform in nearly every metric in nearly every combination.

 

So why does it need to be filled for non-perma doms again? explain it like we are 5. 

[kiramon]

7 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

It's fine if you believe that. Just it seems a lot of contributors do not. I realize this is a subject a lot of people are passsionate about so we appreciate your comments either way.

He just thinks the value of +Recharge (in regards to dom) should be useless from 166% to 222% and then +agabillion at the 222 to 223% threshold. 🙂

 

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by kiramon

[Greycat]

<--- just reiterating, since I probably said it somewhere.

Dom player.

0 permas.

0 desire for perma.

 

And yet I enjoy them immensely.

[Mezmera]

4 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

It's humourous because it is actually you that is arguing that domination should remain unfairly easy  to maintain for anyone that hits the magic 123% recharge. 

 

Hey I can understand why you don't want the devs to look too closely at domination, that bar that needs to be actively filled was probably put in there for a reason. I mean perma doms don't even have to fill the bar, you just stand at wentworths maintaining domination which is likely not what was originally intended.

 

but I can assure you doms are safe. they underperform in nearly every metric in nearly every combination.

 

So why does it need to be filled for non-perma doms again? explain it like we are 5. 

And defense builds are so much easier at the magic 44% and for incarnate content 56% numbers than when you're less than that cap, and no Kira it doesn't scale 1 to 1.  What other value would you like me to use as an example, faster recharging crashless blaster nukes?  You can take issue with any optimization of a "magic" number.  

 

Before IO's I would bring along 2 kins on a LRSF and have perma.  The mechanic has been what has been for a looooong time and that dev team never found reason to change anything but normalizing the damage across the mechanic, deservedly so.  

 

For starters one reason the bar needs to be filled is the full bar of endurance recovery you get when you click that power every single time.  There's the tohitt boost you get for 15s every time you activate domination.  The mez shield you get.  I mean where do you begin?  Bake these things into the base of the AT, that'd be called Defiance I believe so then why not just play a blaster?

 

You're asking for specifics compared to general statements from the other side so if you want to take that as explaining it to a 5 yr old that's your issue.  

 

Like I've said come play with me some time so you can see for yourself what I get to see every time I log on, there's no underperformance issues with my doms.  

[oedipus_tex]

Defense is not a good stat to compare to Recharge IMO. You can eat a Purple and raise your defense, so having baseline Defense in the 32.5 range is useful.

 

Recharge is more limited. For Dominators there's mainly Destiny Ageless and the the workshop buff. 

 

That's an idea though. You could put +Recharge in the T5 self buffs.

 

I've seen what this dev team has done with other classes/powersets and been very impressed. Hopeful Doms get that look too, ideally in a full look at the Control sets.

Edited July 31, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Mezmera]

11 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Defense is not a good stat to compare to Recharge IMO. You can eat a Purple and raise your defense, so having baseline Defense in the 32.5 range is useful.

 

Recharge is more limited. For Dominators there's mainly Destiny Ageless and the the workshop buff. 

 

That's an idea though. You could put +Recharge in the T5 self buffs.

 

I've seen what this dev team has done with other classes/powersets and been very impressed. Hopeful Doms get that look too, ideally in a full look at the Control sets.

But defense bonuses are much harder to come by.  +Recharge bonuses fall into your lap mostly with any curiosity to build yourself with IOs.   Almost every power selection has a set associated with it that you can get a 5th bonus that has a +recharge bonus.  

 

Or you can cap your defenses and carry reds, oranges, more greens.  Yes there's not a +recharge inspiration but there are base boosts you can do or not waste your time going to and from and slot some easy to get global bonuses.  

Edited July 31, 2020 by Mezmera

[Frosticus]

Perma doms dont have to fill their bar. If perma doms is super easy to achieve like you say, then why have the bar? Shouldnt all doms have to fill the bar? why only some?

 

Is it so doms have a larger death penalty than every other AT? That seems unfair.

 

You need to separate the argument from you. We already gathered that your dom can out tank tanks and out damage blasters. It's as easy as 1-2-3 😉

 

Clearly not everyone can use mids as well as you, or play at your level. But why are you gatekeeping the AT  and holding that over people? I have no doubt you are a great player, you have mentioned it without end. But you assume other people are not capable players too. But player skill is nearly irrelevant to this discussion.