Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[ScarySai]

I wouldn't say it's 'held hostage', if they removed the bonus effect I doubt it would cause any problems at all.

 

But that's boring. I'd like the option to use it, there's just no reason to. Nerfing ET isn't going to be a good idea there. More focus generation could be nice, perhaps targets hit by focused bone smasher are 'marked', and slapping them around a bit can potentially generate focus?

 

I don't really have any ideas for how to fix it, just want to highlight the problem for the powers that be. I don't want to cause a massive balance shift with the set, because it's basically close to perfect. If buffing focus came at the cost of nerfing throughput, I would be worried about gimping throughput.

[Wavicle]

What if Bone Smasher had a chance to proc EF or a conditional means of generating it?

[ScarySai]

1 minute ago, Mystic_Cross said:

Bolded part by me. Tanks have an 18 level wait between getting TF and getting ET, and a 15 level wait for Power Crash... so it's not that quickly for us. That said, I really do think there should be at least one other way to generate focus at the very least. Build Up is a good candidate IMO

If nothing else, nothing else at all - Brutes and tanks especially need another way to generate focus.

 

They can't do the crit shenanigans that stalkers and scrappers can.

[Super Atom]

Rolled a level 20 Energy Melee / Dark Armor brute

 

At this level i had Total Focus, though only 2 slots for it. I slotted for endurance and used only SO's. I had no endurance issues unless i needed to pop my heal, which was not often or at the end of the mission against the boss, even then I had plenty of endurance to fight and finish the boss. EF on BS from my TF helped a lot, It was up often and used often to stun enemies it felt really good. Gotta say, at this level EF works amazing for brutes. My endurance was not 100% perfect, but it's early game and not only shouldn't it be 100% perfect, it wasn't bad either. If you can make Dark Armor be tolerable through a whole mission without stopping too much, you can do it to any set.

 

On Bone smasher, I think it's important for balance and It's also really strong. Early game aside, you could easily maintain enough EF to use ET every single time as quick and use BS after ET or PC to maintain it's place in a rotation.

 

Edit; i still think EP/BA should have a chance to cause focus.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Super Atom

[ScarySai]

I don't really see a problem with that, outside of things being tuned down to compensate for it, which is why I don't really want to push that idea too much.

 

Watching for focus procs and firing off an ET is the kind of thing I like, considering how fast ET is now, It's rather rewarding for me to maximize that and it keeps me on my toes.

Edited October 27, 2020 by ScarySai

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

I don't really see a problem with that, outside of things being tuned down to compensate for it.

 

Watching for focus procs and firing off an ET is the kind of thing I like, considering how fast ET is now, It's rather rewarding for me to maximize that and it keeps me on my toes.

Haven't played DB or STJ too much to remember, but do they have giant red text that say "Combo 1" or anything of the sort like EF? Cause thats why EF is so easy.

 

not that it's hard to look at your buff bar or anything.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Super Atom

[ScarySai]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Haven't played DB or STJ too much to remember, but do they have giant red text that say "Combo 1" or anything of the sort like EF? Cause thats why EF is so easy.

 

not that it's hard to look at your buff bar or anything.

No, but once you get to the higher end STJ chains for stalker, it's basically Shin breaker>AS>finisher, so it doesn't really need to be monitored at all.

 

AS generates two combo points, that's why it's so strong and much more fun for stalkers.

 

Plus, in the conversion from scrapper to stalker, it loses pretty much nothing of value. Hence it's popularity.

Edited October 27, 2020 by ScarySai

[Super Atom]

5 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

No, but once you get to the higher end STJ chains for stalker, it's basically Shin breaker>AS>finisher, so it doesn't really need to be monitored at all.

 

AS generates two combo points, that's why it's so strong and much more fun for stalkers.

 

Plus, in the conversion from scrapper to stalker, it loses pretty much nothing of value. Hence it's popularity.

This is why I'm confused as to why EP/Bar doesn't proc EF like Energy Assault has more than 1. Utility in T1/T2, more chances at its use etc.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Super Atom

[Troo]

And now we're back to further co-oping an existing simple power set.

 

The combo as is does not work for everyone. Should those who want to completely change it to Energy Assault trump those who lean toward trying to keep Energy Melee?

 

It seems adding another source of focus is simply more & more in the the direction running away from what Energy Melee is/was.

I get it, folks like the fast ET. ME TOO! We've been asking for a long time.

 

Energy Melee is not Energy Assault.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Troo

[ScarySai]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

This is why I'm confused as to why EP/Bar doesn't proc EF like Energy Assault. Utility in T1/T2, more chances at its use etc.

I imagine there's a fear that energy would become an unstoppable god if they did that, so if they implemented it, we'd take a hit on a few abilities.

 

Though depending on severity, and if ET was touched at all, I could see energy assault's mechanic being ported in some way, like my idea above, maybe focused bone smasher could enable it, making it actually worth capitalizing on.

 

@TrooEnergy melee's only identity is to hit things so hard that their brain melts and they stumble around as you beat on their sludge-heads more, until they fall down.

 

You won't get always-on fast ET back without massive nerfs to everything else, that's why I prefer working with the system they have given us, it's more plausible for change to happen there. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by ScarySai

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

I imagine there's a fear that energy would become an unstoppable god if they did that, so if they implemented it, we'd take a hit on a few abilities.

 

Though depending on severity, and if ET was touched at all, I could see energy assault's mechanic being ported in some way, like my idea above, maybe focused bone smasher could enable it, making it actually worth capitalizing on.

Are you suggesting things that use EF have a chance not to? I might have misread.

 

I'm into the idea of adding onto how and where EF procs. I  still think the best way to be to make all non EF powers have a chance to proc it so throw WH in there with TF remaining a instant. Even if it's a smaller chance to preserve balance because lets be honest, EF all the time would be insane.

 

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

And now we're back to co-oping an existing simple set.

 

The combo as is does not work for everyone. Should those who want to completely change it to Energy Assault trump those who lean toward trying to keep Energy Melee?

 

I threw out a compromise. Just consider it for a moment.

 

I feel adding another source of focus is simply more more more in the the direction running away from what Energy Melee is/was.

I get it, folks like the fast ET. ME TOO! We've been asking for a long time.

 

Energy Melee is not Energy Assault.

This is largely an opinion, I respect your right to have one and your voice has been heard and acknowledged by powerhouse already about why this set is receiving a mechanic. At this point, I think it's more worth working ways to make EF be its best than it is to try and fight it. I don't feel adding EF takes away from EM but instead adds to it (As you're very aware) so trying to make it flow its best and feel its best for everyone involved is the priority for me as opposed to considering ways without it since power house has already said he did so extensively and wasn't into the results.

 

I don't mind slower ET and never have, It's probably also why I don't mind missing fast ET on occasion depending on the situation. If i need more AoE, a slower ST does not change that fact for me. If it was as easy as buffing ET and buffing its AoE I'm sure he would have.

[Troo]

41 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

@TrooEnergy melee's only identity is to hit things so hard that their brain melts and they stumble around as you beat on their sludge-heads more, until they fall down.

You are absolutely correct.
 

I think you might be missing other parts of it's identity.

• It also a relatively simple power set.
• It has two big hitters.
• Those big hitters come at a cost in reduced AoE. Folks choose that when they select it.

 

The current system is on live. This beta is a possible version down the road.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Troo

[ScarySai]

We're not going to agree on lots of things here, so we should probably quit while we're ahead. Refining and improving the current system is likely the best way forward, lest we get another dark melee situation.

 

To me, this thing is close to perfect, it just needs SOMETHING to make it more fluid.

8 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Are you suggesting things that use EF have a chance not to? I might have misread.

Energy assault can proc focus from beating the tar out of stunned targets. Globally, that would probably be a bit OP for the EM overhaul, but if bone smasher applied some kind of mark, like contamination, that caused further beat-downs on that target to generate focus, I could see that being something neat.

 

At the end of the day, it's a very minor issue. EM could launch like this tomorrow and It would be my new main for quite awhile.

Edited October 28, 2020 by ScarySai

[Troo]

I see.

1. I say I agree with you.
2. You then say we're not going to agree.

Got it.

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Troo

[Direct Crit]

14 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

We're not going to agree on lots of things here, so we should probably quit while we're ahead. Refining and improving the current system is likely the best way forward, lest we get another dark melee situation.

 

To me, this thing is close to perfect, it just needs SOMETHING to make it more fluid.

Energy assault can proc focus from beating the tar out of stunned targets. Globally, that would probably be a bit OP for the EM overhaul, but if bone smasher applied some kind of mark, like contamination, that caused further beat-downs on that target to generate focus, I could see that being something neat.

 

At the end of the day, it's a very minor issue. EM could launch like this tomorrow and It would be my new main for quite awhile.

Either Bone Smasher having a chance to generate EF, or removing its consumption of EF and adding Build Up as a source of EF, both would work for my tastes personally. EM having solid damage and more so than other sets seems fine because it generally lacks mitigation. It can stun, sure, but that's not on the same scale as the Knockdown spam many sets get that are genuinely more effective than EMs stuns. Bosses don't resist knockdown generally and you can chain it very easily versus EMs hard CC in a stun that is kept well in check. Which is fine. EM trades extra survivability for damage, that's a suitable trade overall.

Also echoing the 'release tomorrow and I'd main it'. These are genuinely small quibbles as there are very few sets in the game that I personally feel are 'perfect' for design, so EM having this as a janky part of it seems par for the course and would still be a blast to play.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Tactical

[Super Atom]

3 minutes ago, Tactical said:

Either Bone Smasher having a chance to generate EF, or removing its consumption of EF and adding Build Up as a source of EF, both would work for my tastes personally. EM having solid damage and more so than other sets seems fine because it generally lacks mitigation. It can stun, sure, but that's not on the same scale as the Knockdown spam many sets get that are genuinely more effective than EMs stuns. Bosses don't resist knockdown generally and you can chain it very easily versus EMs hard CC in a stun that is kept well in check. Which is fine. EM trades extra survivability for damage, that's a suitable trade overall.

Also echoing the 'release tomorrow and I'd main it'. These are genuinely small quibbles as there are very few sets in the game that I personally feel are 'perfect' for design, so EM having this as a janky part of it seems par for the course and would still be a blast to play.

I'd love for it to be moved to BU, but i don't think they would without nerfing its BU a bit, which i don't think would be worth the trade off honestly, considering how easy it is to manage right now. As you said, pretty small complaints in the grand scheme of things as-is but always good to explore 😛

[Mystic_Cross]

46 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Rolled a level 20 Energy Melee / Dark Armor brute

Did your Brute take and use Death Shroud? 

 

If so, try the same thing on a Tank and grab Cloak of Fear too for another 0.52/s endcost toggle. Even with End slotting and not using sprint you'll be draining nearly 1.6 end/s just from your toggles and only have a 2.08 recovery. Brutes can also ramp up damage with Fury which makes you need to use less attacks overall in order to defeat the same enemy. 

 

Running an Invuln/EM tank with Assault and Tough (so 5 toggles total) at level 30 with a basic level 25 endurance IO in every toggle and every attack, with a Performance Shifter +end proc in Stamina and a Miracle unique in health and I burn 40-60% of my endurance bar fighting a yellow LT and two white minions. I can get through 3-4 groups on average and then need to stop and use rest unless I just carry a full tray of blues and convert all insps into them. 

 

I agree it's manageable, but it still feels like slightly worse performance than I'm getting from the same tank on live. The only difference between the two builds is that on live I have Weave instead of TF. On live I don't have to stop and use rest, ever. I can just manage by converting and eating blues. The addition of TF at level 20 has pushed me into "slower than on live" territory due to needing to stop and rest several times during a mission. 

 

 

[Super Atom]

2 minutes ago, Mystic_Cross said:

Did your Brute take and use Death Shroud? 

 

If so, try the same thing on a Tank and grab Cloak of Fear too for another 0.52/s endcost toggle. Even with End slotting and not using sprint you'll be draining nearly 1.6 end/s just from your toggles and only have a 2.08 recovery. Brutes can also ramp up damage with Fury which makes you need to use less attacks overall in order to defeat the same enemy. 

 

Running an Invuln/EM tank with Assault and Tough (so 5 toggles total) at level 30 with a basic level 25 endurance IO in every toggle and every attack, with a Performance Shifter +end proc in Stamina and a Miracle unique in health and I burn 40-60% of my endurance bar fighting a yellow LT and two white minions. I can get through 3-4 groups on average and then need to stop and use rest unless I just carry a full tray of blues and convert all insps into them. 

 

I agree it's manageable, but it still feels like slightly worse performance than I'm getting from the same tank on live. The only difference between the two builds is that on live I have Weave instead of TF. On live I don't have to stop and use rest, ever. I can just manage by converting and eating blues. The addition of TF at level 20 has pushed me into "slower than on live" territory due to needing to stop and rest several times during a mission. 

 

 

100% did not take it haha, It's not really needed at lower levels if we're being honest and it helps with endurance management to spec into it later, still clearing missions really quick with just my primary attacks. I view that as early game power picking and not so much an issue with either sets.

 

I usually won't run things like tough/weave and stuff unless the mob is particularly big or it's a boss. I've never felt i needed to in early game unless i was pushing the difficulty slider higher than it should be for my level. I could see how if you're running all that stuff your end would be miserable though.

[Wavicle]

13 minutes ago, Tactical said:

Either Bone Smasher having a chance to generate EF, or removing its consumption of EF and adding Build Up as a source of EF, both would work for my tastes personally. EM having solid damage and more so than other sets seems fine because it generally lacks mitigation. It can stun, sure, but that's not on the same scale as the Knockdown spam many sets get that are genuinely more effective than EMs stuns. Bosses don't resist knockdown generally and you can chain it very easily versus EMs hard CC in a stun that is kept well in check. Which is fine. EM trades extra survivability for damage, that's a suitable trade overall.

Also echoing the 'release tomorrow and I'd main it'. These are genuinely small quibbles as there are very few sets in the game that I personally feel are 'perfect' for design, so EM having this as a janky part of it seems par for the course and would still be a blast to play.

I'm thinking if Build Up granted EF then they would lower the Damage Buff. So I'd rather get it from TF and BS or even WH.

[Direct Crit]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

I'm thinking if Build Up granted EF then they would lower the Damage Buff. So I'd rather get it from TF and BS or even WH.

 

I would take it, it'd be worth losing the bonus damage since additional damage is the easiest thing to get access to and the animation save on ET makes it an overall win. Not having to hit TF in an AoE rotation is also exceedingly nice since that's a significant damage loss versus smashing a crowd with an AoE during that time.

[Brutal Justice]

Why not just remove the bone smasher combo and add the stun combo to barrage?   This allows people to build for the stun combo if they want and frees up bone smasher.

 

It would also give tanks “something” for being stuck with barrage.  It would give them some more cc which is somewhat what tanks do, and at low levels where they need it most.  

[Super Atom]

2 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Why not just remove the bone smasher combo and add the stun combo to barrage?   This allows people to build for the stun combo if they want and frees up bone smasher.

 

It would also give tanks “something” for being stuck with barrage.  It would give them some more cc which is somewhat what tanks do, and at low levels where they need it most.  

I think the primary issue is forcing people to take barrage. I think this is actually why they avoided doing anything to the T1/T2 individually.

 

I could see them doing it to both though, even if you took both you'd still only get to use one.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Super Atom

[Brutal Justice]

Just now, Super Atom said:

I think the primary issue is forcing people to take barrage. I think this is actually why they avoided doing anything to the T1/T2 individually.

It doesn’t force people.  It’s a stun in a set that stuns already.  

[siolfir]

6 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Why not just remove the bone smasher combo and add the stun combo to barrage?   This allows people to build for the stun combo if they want and frees up bone smasher.

 

It would also give tanks “something” for being stuck with barrage.  It would give them some more cc which is somewhat what tanks do, and at low levels where they need it most.  

I suggested this as well, but thought that Tankers would then just complain because they can't use Barrage without messing up the fast ET and they're stuck with Barrage. But they could just use Bone Smasher instead and do more damage, much like the suggested "just use Energy Punch" pages ago for skipping Bone Smasher (although in that case, Bone Smasher is better filler than Energy Punch).

 

I know that since I don't take Barrage I would like this solution, though - I'd still have to use Total Focus before Energy Transfer but it wouldn't mess up my using Bone Smasher as filler.

 

Edit; note also that this suggestion is based on the assumption that Energy Focus and variable animation Energy Transfer is written is stone and not on the table for any changes. Obviously I have other preferences in this matter.

Edited October 28, 2020 by siolfir
marked in the post

[Super Atom]

Just now, Brutal Justice said:

It doesn’t force people.  It’s a stun in a set that stuns already.  

I mean for other non-tanks, if it's -only- in barrage you'd have to take barrage as the other sets. I edited my other post but not quick enough it seems lol

 

If they moved it to both EP/BA i could see that being ok because tanks who -have- to take barrage aren't missing out and people who choose EP instead aren't missing out.