Focused Feedback: Blaster Secondary Revamp

[Wavicle]

Most of my Blasters hardly use the immobilize once I get past level 12 or so. If I can kill something at 80 yards (or longer if I'm leading with a sniper attack) then I don't need to immobilize it before it gets within 60 yards of me.

[Wavicle]

I wonder if the Blaster Glue Arrow should be made Location based like the Trick Arrow version?

[Wavicle]

and maybe it should say somewhere in the description that it does damage

[Jacke]

On my AR/Dev, I use Web Grenade--oh yeah, it's now Toxic Web Grenade--to hold an enemy still while I roast him with Assault Rifle's true nuke, Ignite.  That's a teeny patch of fire that really, really hurts.  Immobilizes have a lot of utility in a lot of situations, including keeping the target in a patch dropped by the player or a teammate.  Even stopping one of a group of targets can help in the battle to defeat them all, especially if the Blaster can kite.

 

And if ENA is slotted for not just mez but damage, it is as least as good as the Primary T1 for DPA.  And if there's no other way to break a mez, then it's only the Primary T1, T2, and Secondary T1 to form an attack chain.  Having all 3 powers with 80ft range means they can all be used in attacking any target in range while mezzed.

[Wavicle]

Right, which you’re only supposed to be able to do at 60 ft.

[Kenweir]

You know what this change is going to do for my archer? I'm going to take those two powers, remove any slots in them, remove them from my bar and never use them again. Oil Slick? Meh, I may take it, I may not.

That's how I'll adapt. Maybe I'll replace Ice Arrow with a pool power that gives me good value for a single slot. This is a change for change's sake, nothing else. It literally makes zero sense apart from "We want to change this because we want to change it."

Enjoy my first post.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I wonder if the Blaster Glue Arrow should be made Location based like the Trick Arrow version?

Please God, no. The set's already been gutted enough. The primary joy of the set is that it doesn't have any location based powers muddying up the steady targeting (and is one of the reasons many who like the set as is, really aren't that into Oil Slick Arrow).

 

Also, the reason the electronet arrow needs to be 80' has nothing to do with the immobilize; most Tac Arrow players don't even slot it for immobilize; they slot it for damage due to the fact that it's energy damage (a type that is resisted by things that resist lethal damage) and so is often a part of the default rotation for Archery/Tac Arrow blasters. Reducing the range makes it harder to use as part of that rotation. Frankly, you could probably even replace the immobilize with a stackable slow and you'd still have Archery/Tac Arrow players employing it in their rotation as long as it was 80' and kept the energy damage over time.

 

This is also why I feel reducing the duration instead of range would be a much better option for providing more build options. Right now the duration is MORE than long enough to keep a target locked down for an entire fight with no need to slot for immobilize... which is why its so easy to slot it for damage. Cut the duration in half though and now there's a meaningful choice between slotting for damage (but needing to reapply it to the same target during the fight to keep them locked down) or for immobilize (to make it last long enough to immobilize for the entire fight duration).

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Right, which you’re only supposed to be able to do at 60 ft.

Why are we only supposed to be able to do it at 60'? What is the objective criteria that says "this far and no further?" other than because that's how it was done before?

 

A lot of these secondary changes are already changing how things were before... as a previous poster put it, "change for the sake of change."

 

Heck, they've already upped all the immobilize ranges to 60' from the old 50'... so we're really just arguing over the extent of the changes rather than whether there are going to be changes to those prior standards.

[Wavicle]

It would be nice if the glue stayed on guys after they ran out of it.

[Blackbird71]

3 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

This is why I honestly am not getting the "I'm quitting my TA character because my SINGLE TARGET Immobilize has had its range reduced". I'm using AoE Slows more than a ST Immob, because there are hardly any situations where I have only one target I care about, and when I do, it's Freeze Ray + Ice Arrow, which means the Immob is irrelevant. Honestly, the only time it matters is if you're trying to keep an AV in place, and there the range isn't very important.

There are a lot more changes to Tac Arrow than just the ENA, and thinking that shelving /TA characters is just because of the one change misses the mark.  The changes in totality alter the way the set will play so completely that it will lose what makes it fun.

I can only speak for myself, but for me the crux of the changes that will make me shelve my character are Flash Arrow + ESD Arrow.  The ENA and Ice Arrow changes add to the problems, but they are not my core issues.

[Wavicle]

24 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Please God, no. The set's already been gutted enough. The primary joy of the set is that it doesn't have any location based powers muddying up the steady targeting (and is one of the reasons many who like the set as is, really aren't that into Oil Slick Arrow).

 

Also, the reason the electronet arrow needs to be 80' has nothing to do with the immobilize; most Tac Arrow players don't even slot it for immobilize; they slot it for damage due to the fact that it's energy damage (a type that is resisted by things that resist lethal damage) and so is often a part of the default rotation for Archery/Tac Arrow blasters. Reducing the range makes it harder to use as part of that rotation. Frankly, you could probably even replace the immobilize with a stackable slow and you'd still have Archery/Tac Arrow players employing it in their rotation as long as it was 80' and kept the energy damage over time.

 

This is also why I feel reducing the duration instead of range would be a much better option for providing more build options. Right now the duration is MORE than long enough to keep a target locked down for an entire fight with no need to slot for immobilize... which is why its so easy to slot it for damage. Cut the duration in half though and now there's a meaningful choice between slotting for damage (but needing to reapply it to the same target during the fight to keep them locked down) or for immobilize (to make it last long enough to immobilize for the entire fight duration).

Yeah, you're really not supposed to have a third Blast as your first primary. That's not how Blasters are supposed to work. 

[Blackbird71]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Yeah, you're really not supposed to have a third Blast as your first primary. That's not how Blasters are supposed to work. 

Why?  You keep dictating how things are "supposed" to be, but haven't offered any justification for it.  All sets don't have to work the exact same way; it's the variety and options that make them interesting.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Blackbird71 said:

Why?  You keep dictating how things are "supposed" to be, but haven't offered any justification for it.  All sets don't have to work the exact same way; it's the variety and options that make them interesting.

I'm not dictating anything. That is the design of Blaster secondaries. The first power, in ALL cases, is a defensive ability designed to help keep back enemies that are getting too close while doing a small amount of damage, but not particularly good DPA. That's the design. You'd have to convince the devs that should be changed, not me.

[Blackbird71]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I'm not dictating anything.

 

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Right, which you’re only supposed to be able to do at 60 ft.

 

11 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Yeah, you're really not supposed to have a third Blast as your first primary. That's not how Blasters are supposed to work. 

 

[Wavicle]

If you want to think of it as dictating when I state basic facts of blaster AT design that’s on you.

[Wavicle]

I personally would prefer Glue as a drop so I could use it as a trap, but I guess I will be able to do that with OSA.

[Wavicle]

It's too bad Eagle Eye isn't until 20, but I don't really have a suggestion for a better order.

 

Maybe reverse Eagle Eye and Flash Arrow. Would that be bad?

Edited November 13, 2020 by Wavicle

[Jacke]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

It's too bad Eagle Eye isn't until 20, but I don't really have a suggestion for a better order.

 

Maybe reverse Eagle Eye and Flash Arrow. Would that be bad?

I prefer Tactical Arrow's Flash Arrow at level 16 and Eagle Eye at 20.  Devices gets Smoke Grenade at 16 and Field Operative at 20 and it's fine before then.  Also the -ToHit are so weak from Blaster secondaries that if I don't need the -Perception, I often skip them as builds are tight and there's usually another power that gives something with more utility than the loss from not having Flash Arrow / Smoke Grenade.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jacke

[ForeverLaxx]

7 hours ago, Wavicle said:

That is the design of Blaster secondaries. The first power, in ALL cases, is a defensive ability designed to help keep back enemies that are getting too close while doing a small amount of damage, but not particularly good DPA.

Factually incorrect. Some fit this formula, some are actually better DPA than certain Primary Blast T1s, and some are comparable if a tad lower. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, so why are you on a warpath to see all these (except Psi, for some reason) get locked to 60 feet? Because the devs made the change and you defer to their "wisdom"?

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Factually incorrect. Some fit this formula, some are actually better DPA than certain Primary Blast T1s, and some are comparable if a tad lower. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, so why are you on a warpath to see all these (except Psi, for some reason) get locked to 60 feet? Because the devs made the change and you defer to their "wisdom"?

Because some people think the same mindset that gave us 4E D&D (an edition maligned for its sameness and focus on adherence to theorycrafted rules rather than how it worked when used by actual players and became the shortest running edition in history as a result) will somehow produce good results here.

 

There are plenty of ways to limit the utility of the tier 1 that don’t require the use of a cookie-cutter and straight-jacket. As mentioned; halve the duration of the immobilize. Reduce its magnitude so you have to stack it. Make it a -speed debuff.

 

We’ve already thrown out the cottage rule on these secondary revamps... the moment this goes live I’ll have an Oil Slick Arrow slotted with Luck of the Gambler and a Kismet (global +tohit).

 

Frankly, these changes feel like the exact same mindset that happened to SWTOR (still limping along on the backs of casino pack whales) where they stripped out everything unique about each class and replaced it with cosmetically different but identical under the hood options so that every tank, healer, burst dps and DoT dps spec played exactly the same as those from every other class.

 

Sure it made the PVP (that almost no one plays) easier to balance, but it robbed the classes of anything unique (made worse by the storyline pushing everyone onto the same story path whether they’re a Darth Vader or a Lando Calrissian).

[Obitus]

On 10/27/2020 at 11:47 AM, Chris24601 said:

You know, just for the sake of exploring options... other than institutional inertia, what is the rationale for ANY Blaster secondary single target immobilizes being just 50’ instead of the same 80’ as their primary attacks?

I haven't read the whole thread, but I want to echo this sentiment.

 

There was a time when tier 3 blasts were all set at a range of 20 feet.  After years and years, the devs finally and correctly reversed this decision, though it took a few revisions before we got them up to 80'.   Blasters specifically and ranged builds in general were saddled with inexplicable drawbacks to compensate for what the original developers saw as an apocalyptic threat to game balance: range as a defense (!!!). 

 

Meanwhile, tankers were herding entire maps to be nuked down.  The fixation on keeping ranged Blasters' power in check has always been bizarre and out of touch. 

 

Just make every Blaster ranged attack 80', already.  I promise you the game won't break if ranged characters with terrible durability (and now, once again, mediocre control) gain the ability to toss a T1 immobilize into their ranged attack chain without having to worry about where they're standing.  The concern that "all blaster immobilizes have always had shorter range" isn't at all rational; as Chris says above, it is simply a matter of institutional inertia, and in this case the institution was off its rocker from day one.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Obitus

[chi1701]

Psionic secondary, world of confusion, will there be a better info stats on the abilities chance to confuse as the info doesnt show % chance or confuse duration.

[Jacke]

59 minutes ago, Obitus said:

There was a time when tier 3 blasts were all set at a range of 20 feet.  After years and years, the devs finally and correctly reversed this decision, though it took a few revisions before we got them up to 80'.   Blasters specifically and ranged builds in general were saddled with inexplicable drawbacks to compensate for what the original developers saw as an apocalyptic threat to game balance: range as a defense (!!!).

I remember those times!

 

Radiation has a boss killer, Cosmic Burst.  (2 hits with its Stun has bosses stunned.)  For years it had 40ft range.  Sometime, can't remember when, it was doubled to 80ft.  No real massive improvement, but it was more convenient to use.

 

Of course, I currently don't have Cosmic Burst, but it's just because other Radiation Blast powers are better and there's other ways of dealing with bosses.  And mob Stun protection is now all too common.

 

And here's a table of the Blaster Primary T1 and T2 and Secondary T1.  Didn't fill in all the extras, just the basics.

 

2020-11-13

Using ArcanaTime, Blaster powers, L50, in i27p1 B3 character creator


Powerset                    Power               Avg Damage  Range   Cast    Rech    End     DPA     DPE

Archery                     Snap Shot               52.55   80      1.188   2.00    3.54    44.2    14.8
                            Aimed Shot              82.58   80      1.848   6.00    5.20    44.7    15.9
Assault Rifle               Burst                   67.57   90      1.188   4.00    5.20    56.9    13.0
                            Slug                   102.60  100      1.848   8.00    8.53    55.5    12.0
Beam Rifle                  Single Shot            100.10   80      1.188   4.00    5.20    84.3    19.3
                            Charged Shot           140.14   80      1.848   8.00    8.53    75.8    16.4
Dark Blast                  Dark Blast              62.56   80      1.188   4.00    5.20    52.7    12.0
                            Gloom                  110.11   80      1.848   8.00    8.53    59.6    12.9
Dual Pistols                Pistols                 62.56   80      1.188   4.00    4.16    52.7    15.0
                            Dual Wield              82.58   80      1.848   6.00    6.86    44.7    12.0
Electrical Blast            Charged Bolts           62.56   80      1.188   4.00    5.20    52.7    12.0
                            Lightning Bolt         102.60   80      1.848   8.00    8.53    55.5    12.0
Energy Blast                Power Bolt              62.56   80      1.188   4.00    5.20    52.7    12.0
                            Power Blast            102.60   80      1.848   8.00    8.53    55.5    12.0
Fire Blast                  Flares                  63.19   80      1.188   2.18    3.69    53.2    17.1
                            Fire Blast              84.72   80      1.848   4.00    5.20    45.8    16.3
Ice Blast                   Ice Bolt                62.56   80      1.188   4.00    5.20    52.7    12.0
                            Ice Blast              102.60   80      1.848   8.00    8.53    55.5    12.0
Psychic Blast               Psionic Dart            62.56   80      1.188   4.00    5.20    52.7    12.0
                            Mental Blast           102.60   80      1.848   8.00    8.53    55.5    12.0
Radiation Blast             Neutrino Bolt           62.56   80      1.188   4.00    5.20    52.7    12.0
                            X-Ray Beam             102.60   80      1.848   8.00    8.53    55.5    12.0
Sonic Attack                Shriek                  52.55   80      1.188   3.00    4.37    44.2    12.0
                            Scream                  82.58   80      1.848   6.00    6.86    44.7    12.0
Water Blast                 Aqua Bolt               52.55   80      1.188   3.00    4.37    44.2    12.0
                            Hydro Blast             92.59   80      1.848   7.00    7.70    50.1    12.0


Powerset                    Power               Avg Damage  Range   Cast    Rech    End     DPA     DPE    Mag Immob for    Knock

Atomic Manipulation         Electron Shackles       71.95   60      1.320   4.00    5.20    54.5    13.8    3       17.88
Devices                     Toxic Web Grenade       62.56   60      1.584   4.00    7.80    39.5    8.0     3       17.88
Darkness Manipulation       Penumbral Grasp         62.56   60      1.848   4.00    7.80    33.9    8.0     3       17.88
Energy Manipulation         Power Thrust            44.49    7      1.188   6.00    6.86    37.4    6.5                     16.62
Electrical Manipulation     Electric Fence          62.56   60      1.320   4.00    7.80    47.4    8.0     3       17.88
Fire Manipulation           Ring of Fire            96.34   60      1.320   6.00    7.80    73.0    12.4    3       17.88
Ice Manipulation            Chillblain              62.56   60      1.320   4.00    7.80    47.4    8.0     3       17.88
Martial Combat              Ki Push                 55.61    7      1.056   4.00    5.20    52.7    10.7                     8.31   after Mag 4 Repel Mag 4 Hold for 2.00s
Mental Manipulation         Subdual                 62.56   80      1.840   4.00    8.53    34.0    7.3     3       17.88
Ninja Training              Immobilization Dart     50.05   60      1.716   4.00    5.20    29.2    9.6     3       17.88
Plant Manipulation          Entangle                62.56   60      1.452   4.00    5.20    43.1    12.0    4       17.88
Sonic Manipulation          Sonic Thrust            44.49    7      1.188   6.00    6.86    37.4    6.5                     16.62   at the same time as Mag 4 Repel for 2.00s
Tactical Arrow              Electrified Net Arrow   62.56   60      1.188   4.00    7.80    52.7    8.0     3       17.88
Temporal Manipulation       Timewall                55.61   60      1.848   4.00    5.20    30.1    10.7    3       17.88

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jacke

[Rodion]

This pertains to Electricity Manipulation.

 

I've got a character that has Avalanche slotted in Lightning Field for the melee defense bonus. When it is converted to Force of Thunder I can no longer slot the same set of IOs on my character because FoT only takes stun sets.

 

Would it be possible to add a minor damage component to Force of Thunder so that I can slot Avalanche in it? 

 

Thanks!

Edited November 13, 2020 by Rodion
Clarified which set I'm talking about.

[Rodion]

13 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

. . . The primary joy of the set is that it doesn't have any location based powers muddying up the steady targeting (and is one of the reasons many who like the set as is, really aren't that into Oil Slick Arrow). . . .

I also dislike location based powers, but with two keybinds you can convert any location-based power to a target-based power and keep the location targeting for those cases when you need it.

 

To target with shift+click you can use something like this:

 

    /bind shift+click "powexecname Oil Slick Arrow"

To target an enemy (or friend, for that matter):

 

   /bind ctrl+1 "powexeclocation target Oil Slick Arrow"

 

Location-based powers are a real hassle to use in the middle of a huge battle, with Nature Affinity powers blooming all over the place, because it's often difficult to track where the cursor is in all that chaos. But the the /powexeclocation command fixes all that. It is a huge quality of life improvement!

 

Given this capability, one could argue that location-based powers are preferable because they're more flexible -- they can be used both ways with a couple of keybind assignments.

 

Now if I could only get the oil slick to automatically catch fire after I put it down...