Super Strength

[UltraAlt]

On 10/28/2020 at 3:49 PM, Ultimo said:

That's why I suggested knockback enhancers should ALSO enhance damage, so you could have the knockback without sacrificing your damage output.  I also suggested that knockback should do a bit of additional damage so that it's more desirable.  As you say, right now, people often don't WANT knockback, so it needed something to make people want it.

 

The stun on Hand Clap is still very short when slotted... but that's kind of beside the point.  The thing is, it does no damage at all, and it really should (it does when Hulk does it... it even does it when Statesman does it).

I disagree because every other power has to pay for the secondary effect so why shouldn't super strength?

Want the knockback? Slot it.

Want damage? Slot it.

 

The only thing I can say about Hand Clap is that it is basically "stay in one place" knock back. I don't think basic stun lasts much longer than it does than an enemy to fly through the air, hit the ground, and get up again. The only thing I could see would be changing Hand Clap into knockback instead of stun and maybe increasing the magnitude of the knockback,.

 

The power sets are worked to balance out and I think that the hand clap was part of the overall set balancing.

I can see thematically that the hand clap could be a cone knock back instead of a stun. (I mean if you aren't slapping your hands on either side of the enemy's head.. I am confused a bit as to why that would be stun)

 

Both stun and knockback are methods of control - the same as the other control effects. 

 

Now being able to hurl more than just a boulder? I can see that. I mean gravity can throw all kinds of stuff ... looks different to everyone that see it, but it isn't always the same thing.

[Ultimo]

10 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I disagree because every other power has to pay for the secondary effect so why shouldn't super strength?

Want the knockback? Slot it.

Want damage? Slot it.

 

The only thing I can say about Hand Clap is that it is basically "stay in one place" knock back. I don't think basic stun lasts much longer than it does than an enemy to fly through the air, hit the ground, and get up again. The only thing I could see would be changing Hand Clap into knockback instead of stun and maybe increasing the magnitude of the knockback,.

 

The power sets are worked to balance out and I think that the hand clap was part of the overall set balancing.

I can see thematically that the hand clap could be a cone knock back instead of a stun. (I mean if you aren't slapping your hands on either side of the enemy's head.. I am confused a bit as to why that would be stun)

 

Both stun and knockback are methods of control - the same as the other control effects. 

 

Now being able to hurl more than just a boulder? I can see that. I mean gravity can throw all kinds of stuff ... looks different to everyone that see it, but it isn't always the same thing.

Knockback and knockdown are functionally the same as a soft control.  There is SOME difference if the enemy has to make his way back to you, or if you knock him off a cliff or something, but that's very situational.  My goal was to allow players who don't want knockback to have knockdown instead, while players who do want knockback to have it.  Super Strength wouldn't be getting something for nothing, there's already a knock effect, all we would be doing is changing WHICH knock.

 

I wonder at the balance.  The issue is that Super Strength is one of the original sets, and it's been kind of left in the dust.  It's not BAD, performance wise, but it lacks the flavour of having actual STRENGTH.

 

Hand Clap is a very thematic power, and it's one of the few.  It's something many comic characters do, and it's always a very damaging power.  My suggestion was to simply add a damage effect in a cone.  Otherwise, it would remain unchanged.

 

I really wasn't suggesting hurl as anything other than a boulder, because it would be hard to rationalize how that would work.  I mean, you can rip up a chunk of rock from the ground, but pulling a car out of thin air?

 

As I say, it's more a matter of presentation.  I'd just like the set to FEEL stronger.  A bit of a visual tweak, and some AOE would probably be enough.  Even if they dropped JAB (which is a useless power and lacks ANY sense of being strong), and added a variation of Cross Punch a bit further up the chain (maybe make Punch the first power, then Haymaker, then Cross Punch?), that would be enough.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

My goal was to allow players who don't want knockback to have knockdown instead

There is an enhancement for that.

Sudden Acceleration :: Knockback to Knockdown

 

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Hand Clap is a very thematic power, and it's one of the few.  It's something many comic characters do, and it's always a very damaging power.  My suggestion was to simply add a damage effect in a cone.

Most of the times that I have seen hand clap in a comic it is knocking stuff around and possibly damaging whatever because it is knocked back by the concussion and no direct damage.

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

I really wasn't suggesting hurl as anything other than a boulder, because it would be hard to rationalize how that would work.  I mean, you can rip up a chunk of rock from the ground, but pulling a car out of thin air?

Grab a section of sewer pipe out of the ground or floor?

A section of floor? seems odd outside or in caves, but boulder seems odd inside.

Even just adding those two would add variety if you are looking for variation.

It is more likely something like that would happen versus say making the "throw boulder" grab up and throw something that is related to the nearby environment.

 

Pretty much all the melee sets have a closed-ranged ranged attack. This is Super Strengths version and I think it fits the power set for what it is.

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

As I say, it's more a matter of presentation.

So you don't like the animations?

So you are looking for power customizations that are different animations for the powers?

Like a more Hulk-like animation versus a Superman animation? (versus Doc Samson, Thing, Ultra Boy, etc.)

[Ultimo]

7 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

There is an enhancement for that.

Sudden Acceleration :: Knockback to Knockdown

 

Most of the times that I have seen hand clap in a comic it is knocking stuff around and possibly damaging whatever because it is knocked back by the concussion and no direct damage.

Grab a section of sewer pipe out of the ground or floor?

A section of floor? seems odd outside or in caves, but boulder seems odd inside.

Even just adding those two would add variety if you are looking for variation.

It is more likely something like that would happen versus say making the "throw boulder" grab up and throw something that is related to the nearby environment.

 

Pretty much all the melee sets have a closed-ranged ranged attack. This is Super Strengths version and I think it fits the power set for what it is.

So you don't like the animations?

So you are looking for power customizations that are different animations for the powers?

Like a more Hulk-like animation versus a Superman animation? (versus Doc Samson, Thing, Ultra Boy, etc.)

I don't have and can't afford any fancy special enhancements, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  My suggestion would be doable with even normal enhancements.  As it is, if I want to slot for knockback, I have to give up slotting for something else, which puts me at a disadvantage.  That would be fine, except that Super Strength should be doing tons of knockback by default... because that's how it works in the comics and shows.  Since lots of people wouldn't want that, I tried to come up with a way to give the set the effect it SHOULD have, without inconveniencing anyone who doesn't want that knockback.  I'm trying to please everyone, if you see what I mean.

 

The hand clap is used in the comics, usually by the Hulk... and it's kind of his finisher.  It should be a big deal, but now it's kind of underwhelming.  Watch the Hulk vs Saitama video, and watch for the hand clap near the end of the fight.  It's awesome.  WAY more that I was hoping for in this game, but it gives you some idea of what I'm after.

 

I agree, ripping up more appropriate objects would be great.  I'd be all in for that, I just don't know if it's possible.  As far as I'm concerned, Hurl is ok, it just needs a couple of tweaks.  First, it needs to be an AOE.  It's a big rock, it takes up space.  Second, it would be nice if it were bigger.  I mean, it's a smaller rock than Stone Melee gets.  Super Strength should look stronger, and it doesn't.  Third, it should be available sooner.  I mean, it's really the only power that lets us lift something heavy, and that's kind of the whole point of being super strong.  It's iconic, and should be something we get earlier.

 

The animations are ok, in general.  Punch, with its one handed smash animation, is fine.  Haymaker is fine with the two handed smash, but it's kind of misnamed, since a haymaker would be a long, telegraphed cross (more like Cross Punch or KO Blow).  In fact, most of the animations are ok, except for Jab, which I'd drop entirely.  As far as how the attacks look, it's more about how they interact with the environment.  Again, watch the videos, there's TONS of collateral damage... windows smashing, dust flying, smoke and debris everywhere... just from the shockwaves of the punches.  That's something kind of typical of super strong battles in the comics and shows.  I'd just like to see some more of that kind of thing.

 

As I say, I think the animations themselves are ok... both the original ones and the alternates (though the alternates look kind of awkward in some cases).  I can have Hulkish smashes or Supermanish punches, and that's fine.  It's the results of the punches that need tweaking.

[UltraAlt]

10 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

My suggestion would be doable with even normal enhancements.  As it is, if I want to slot for knockback, I have to give up slotting for something else, which puts me at a disadvantage.

As the game is designed now, it can't give the option to have knockdown instead of knockback as a power customization presently. (or change sleep to disorient, or stun to knockback)

The way to handle it is in-game using the enhancement I mentioned. If you don't want to work for the change you desire, then you aren't trying to get what you want. Gain some influence and purchase the enhancement for the powers you want to convert.

I have had to do it on multiple characters to make my characters team friendly. Sometimes we have to work for what we want.

 

15 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Watch the Hulk vs Saitama video

I'm not down with the Ret-con. Back in the day, it was just knocking people and things around... as I recall even tanks in some situations but that was when Hulk was really mad and up at comparison of max Incarnate levels. It was never making soldier's bodies explode or smash them into a mangled pulp.

No idea how the new blood-thirsty, splatterpunk takes on the Hulk might be.

19 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Hurl is ok, it just needs a couple of tweaks.  First, it needs to be an AOE. 

All the melee short-range range attacks are single target. 

 

20 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Again, watch the videos, there's TONS of collateral damage... windows smashing, dust flying, smoke and debris everywhere... just from the shockwaves of the punches. 

Only way you are going to get any environment smashing is to go to the villain side and run bank heist missions through the newspaper contact. 

[Ultimo]

16 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

As the game is designed now, it can't give the option to have knockdown instead of knockback as a power customization presently. (or change sleep to disorient, or stun to knockback)

The way to handle it is in-game using the enhancement I mentioned. If you don't want to work for the change you desire, then you aren't trying to get what you want. Gain some influence and purchase the enhancement for the powers you want to convert.

I have had to do it on multiple characters to make my characters team friendly. Sometimes we have to work for what we want.

 

I'm not down with the Ret-con. Back in the day, it was just knocking people and things around... as I recall even tanks in some situations but that was when Hulk was really mad and up at comparison of max Incarnate levels. It was never making soldier's bodies explode or smash them into a mangled pulp.

No idea how the new blood-thirsty, splatterpunk takes on the Hulk might be.

All the melee short-range range attacks are single target. 

 

Only way you are going to get any environment smashing is to go to the villain side and run bank heist missions through the newspaper contact. 

Again, I know there's an enhancement that does what you say.  I'm suggesting that the set needs a revamp, and this is one of the elements I think it should have.  You don't want to have the option of knockdown or knockback, fine.  I'll change my suggestion.  Super Strength in the comics always does tons of knockback, so it should always do tons of knockback in the game.  All Super Strength powers should always do lots of knockback.

Is that better?  No?

 

I'm not sure what retcon you mean... unless you're referring to my suggested revamp?  I've not read a recent Hulk comic, I'm really only familiar with comics before they went to crap.  I'm not looking for more damage or anything.  I'm suggesting that the set perform more like we see it in the source material.

 

Attacks that are the result of hitting a target with a giant boulder or other object that takes up a lot of space... should be area effect.  This makes it more useful too, of course, but the set is really short on AOE (as are many melee sets, but one thing at a time).

 

I realize the environment can't actually be smashed up.  That's not what I suggested.  I said we could use some environmental COSMETIC effects, like debris, dust and rubble (as Stone Melee produces) as well as cracks on the ground and surrounding walls (if possible).  Things like mailboxes and trees already produce stuff that flies around when certain effects occur near them, these should be happening when Super Strength attacks are happening nearby, too.  None of that is ACTUALLY smashing the environment, it just LOOKS like it is.  There's already a vague yellow shockwave on most of the attacks, imagine if a cloud of dust and debris accompanied it.

[UltraAlt]

You have made your points. 

I made mine.

I'm bowing out of this one.

[Grindingsucks]

I agree that Super Strength is underwhelming and doesn't really model the effects it's supposed to emulate very well.  I like the changes you're suggesting, but I don't think they would be popular, because most people are crybabies about knockback effects.

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Grindingsucks said:

I agree that Super Strength is underwhelming and doesn't really model the effects it's supposed to emulate very well.

On 10/27/2020 at 3:51 PM, Ultimo said:

I don't like the Super Strength set... it just doesn't seem very STRONG. 

Hahahahahaha

 

My Fire,Fire,Fire blaster isn't strong because look at the Sun!

[Bill Z Bubba]

Thank the dark and elder gods that absolutely none of this actually matters as long as I can log in and kill shit.

[Grindingsucks]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

Hahahahahaha

 

My Fire,Fire,Fire blaster isn't strong because look at the Sun!

It's less about raw strength (let us say, damage, to be precise) than about how it "feels" when you play it.  Random shit blowing up (cars, doors, and the like) + strong knockback would help it to play like the thing that it actually represents.  Not that SS is weak, per-say, mind you.

 

And don't look at the sun.  It's bad for your vision. 😛

Edited November 5, 2020 by Grindingsucks

[Grindingsucks]

21 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Thank the dark and elder gods that absolutely none of this actually matters as long as I can log in and kill shit.

Mot thanks you, in kind.  Your regular offerings help quiet his growling tummy.  😁

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Grindingsucks said:

Mot thanks you, in kind.  Your regular offerings help quiet his growling tummy.  😁

Thanks. I needed that today.

[Grindingsucks]

😁👍

[Player2]

I think super strength should have a much stronger Knock Up/Down magnitude as you level up so that at high levels you can affect even AVs with the Knockout Punch (knock up, at least... I don't expect them to be disoriented) and maybe to a lesser degree Footstomp.  Or maybe have it as it is now, but increase while Rage is active.

[Ultimo]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

Hahahahahaha

 

My Fire,Fire,Fire blaster isn't strong because look at the Sun!

And yet, Fire/Fire still looks awesome because it's spewing little sparks and flames that fall to the ground and persist for a few seconds.  It's a minor, cosmetic, environmental thing that makes it LOOK more powerful than it is (indeed, I was convinced my Fire Dominator was actually doing decent damage because of it).

[Player2]

14 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

And yet, Fire/Fire still looks awesome because it's spewing little sparks and flames that fall to the ground and persist for a few seconds.  It's a minor, cosmetic, environmental thing that makes it LOOK more powerful than it is (indeed, I was convinced my Fire Dominator was actually doing decent damage because of it).

I also like fire because when you click an attack power without having a target, your hands will flame up in anticipation of the attack just as they do when you actually make the attack.  Honestly, I wish more attack powers could do this... like electric aura on hands for electric attacks, the arctic aura on hands for cold attacks, etc.  I think Flame is the only one that does this (aside from weapon sets which will cause you to draw your weapon).

[Ultimo]

9 minutes ago, Player2 said:

I also like fire because when you click an attack power without having a target, your hands will flame up in anticipation of the attack just as they do when you actually make the attack.  Honestly, I wish more attack powers could do this... like electric aura on hands for electric attacks, the arctic aura on hands for cold attacks, etc.  I think Flame is the only one that does this (aside from weapon sets which will cause you to draw your weapon).

There are others... I believe there are darkness sets that do it, at least.  I'd have to look.

 

Another alternative is to put an aura on your hands (or wherever you like) that activates when you enter combat.  Just clicking a power will put you in combat mode, which will activate the aura.

[Player2]

9 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

There are others... I believe there are darkness sets that do it, at least.  I'd have to look.

 

Another alternative is to put an aura on your hands (or wherever you like) that activates when you enter combat.  Just clicking a power will put you in combat mode, which will activate the aura.

True, but then you are limiting your aura use to that when you might want it for something else.  Also, one could do the same thing with fire + an aura for a double effect... like a smoking hands combat aura to go along with the flaming power activation effect to make it look like the character (or his gloves) are burning when he powers up... or a fire aura of a different color to achieve an additional layer of color to the colors (natural or power customized) of the flame activation effect.