Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[Hero_of_Light]

11 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I dunno, thats a question only you can answer.  I am disagreeing with you that the game needs unique grindy unlocks to make it better and retain or attract people.

 

Thats just not how people are anymore - especially with an older game that we are lucky that still exists.

 

Instant gratification is unfortunately how our society is now.  And moving forward 8 years in time from when the game shut reveals this even more so.

 

I think declining population is more due to the insanity in the world right now.

 

A lot of us are basically having to homeschool our kids and dont have as much time for games for instance - and definately not grindy stuff.

I feel that, but I'm not asking for grindy things that take a lot of time. 

 

Instant gratification doesn't lead to anything good: If Homecoming had come back as what we have in the beta server (being able to jerk hack everything) it would be a skeleton by now.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Hero_of_Light

[Hero_of_Light]

16 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

A) Your suggestions would not make the game better, just more of a slog.

 

B) You're seeking validation by looking for more accomplishments and goals to be added.  

 

Please stop pretending that we all weren't around for the old thread in the Suggestions forum.  We know your views from there.  You made it clear that you want shiny things to display that say "I did X, and you didn't" because you said as much in the past. 

Read my examples.

 

You'll see that it's not grindy, nor for 'i did x and you didn't'. 

 

Not trolling me this time around and trying to get me into an argument to get the thread close.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Hero_of_Light

[Hero_of_Light]

11 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Please stop pretending that we all weren't around for the old thread in the Suggestions forum. 

Speaking of which! There's a new suggestions thread, you should check it out.

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Instant gratification doesn't lead to anything good: If Homecoming had come back as what we have in the beta server (being able to jerk hack everything) it would be a skeleton by now.

You have nothing to back this up.

[Infinitum]

11 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Read my examples.

 

You'll see that it's not grindy, nor for 'i did x and you didn't'. 

 

Not trolling me this time around and trying to get me into an argument to get the thread close.

You are asking for the same stuff in a different way.  But it's exactly the same trip you were on a year ago.

[Hero_of_Light]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

You have nothing to back this up.

I wonder how the Have Cake server is doing.

[Hero_of_Light]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You are asking for the same stuff in a different way.  But it's exactly the same trip you were on a year ago.

Nope, stop trolling. I won't respond.

[Omega-202]

Just now, Hero_of_Light said:

I wonder how the Have Cake server is doing.

Poorly?  They have a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase.  

 

15 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Not trolling me this time around and trying to get me into an argument to get the thread close.

"This person disagrees with me, therefore they are troll." - Hero of Light

[Infinitum]

Just now, Hero_of_Light said:

I wonder how the Have Cake server is doing.

Pretty good actually, out of all the other servers they are by far the friendliest and have a very active development going on.

 

HC is where my roots are, but if anything ever happened here I would definately go there first.

 

I'm in it here as long as HC exists though.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Nope, stop trolling. I won't respond.

Not trolling you, but you can't decide arbitrarily what is best for everyone, and shut down anyone elses opinion.

 

I disagree with you, which I'm allowed to do.  You posed the question.  I responded.  You posed a response - and I responded again.

[Hero_of_Light]

18 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Not trolling you, but you can't decide arbitrarily what is best for everyone, and shut down anyone elses opinion.

 

I disagree with you, which I'm allowed to do.  You posed the question.  I responded.  You posed a response - and I responded again.

But what I'm asking for isn't what I spoke about last year.

 

This is refined down and much more compromising, plus not grindy at all unless you view regular game play and story arcs grindy.

[Hero_of_Light]

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Pretty good actually, out of all the other servers they are by far the friendliest and have a very active development going on.

 

HC is where my roots are, but if anything ever happened here I would definately go there first.

 

I'm in it here as long as HC exists though.

But thier player retention is much lower than HC. 

[Infinitum]

Just now, Hero_of_Light said:

But what I'm asking for isn't what I spoke about last year.

 

This is refined down and much more compromising, plus not grindy at all unless you view regular game play and story arcs grindy.

Yeah its more televangelical this time, "the fate of the game and people staying rests with me getting what I want"

 

Its the exact same thing, in fact you are in three different threads right now saying the same thing.

 

It was the same argument a year ago and its the same argument today.  And more people disagree with you than agree.

 

That doesn't make you wrong either it just makes your opinion unpopular.

[Hero_of_Light]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Yeah its more televangelical this time, "the fate of the game and people staying rests with me getting what I want"

 

Its the exact same thing, in fact you are in three different threads right now saying the same thing.

 

It was the same argument a year ago and its the same argument today.  And more people disagree with you than agree.

 

That doesn't make you wrong either it just makes your opinion unpopular.

Has nothing to do with me personally. I mean I could just go the way of my friends and others by not saying anything and leaving, but I care about CoH and look forward to what it could be.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

But thier player retention is much lower than HC. 

I don't doubt you, but can you prove this?

 

I'm on their discord and its not inactive by any stretch.

 

Granted it is a lot smaller than HC, but that's not a point that matters really.

 

Some people Will enjoy other servers over HC, and thats ok.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Has nothing to do with me personally. I mean I could just go the way of my friends and others by not saying anything and leaving, but I care about CoH and look forward to what it could be.

Thats your vision, just because others do not share it doesn't mean they are wrong, but to falsely say this will be the end of HC because you alone believe it, is a scare tactic to get what you want without any shred of proof.

[Hero_of_Light]

I'm really sick and I'm just whinding myself up, so I guess I should leave it be.

 

Homecoming will do what it does, and who knows what NCsoft will wanna do.

 

In the end my opinion doesn't matter any more or less than anyone elses.

 

In my opinion HC CoX is lacking in areas I believe are vital to it's continuing to garner and retain players.

 

If I'm wrong I'll happily accept that and continue playing

 

If I'm not I'll be sad not at least I had some fun in CoX one last time and I'll have tried in what little ways I could to help.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Hero_of_Light

[Infinitum]

Just now, Hero_of_Light said:

I'm really sick wanna I'm buying whinding myself up, so I guess I should leave it be.

 

Homecoming will do what it does, and who knows what NCsoft will wanna do.

 

In the end my opinion doesn't matter any more or less than anyone elses.

 

In my opinion HC CoX is lacking in areas I believe are vital to it's continuing to garner and retain players.

 

If I'm wrong I'll happily accept that and continue playing

 

If I'm not I'll be sad not at least I had some fun in CoX one last time and I'll have tried in what little ways I could to help.

Relax, I dont think its going anywhere anytime soon.  Well this is 2020 so we havent ruled out asteroid strike yet.

[Hero_of_Light]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Relax, I dont think its going anywhere anytime soon. Well this is 2020 so we havent ruled out asteroid strike yet.

I hope so. 

 

[Infinitum]

8 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

I'm really sick and I'm just whinding myself up, so I guess I should leave it be.

I do hope you feel better also.

[Hero_of_Light]

10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I do hope you feel better also.

Thank you, and I hope you enjoy your gaming.

[Hero_of_Light]

57 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Poorly?  They have a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase.  

 

"This person disagrees with me, therefore they are troll." - Hero of Light

Thank you for proving me right

[RogerWilco]

On 11/12/2020 at 2:20 AM, CursedSorcerer said:

The funny thing is that usually, I deliberately "soft-lock" myself from things like Capes and Auras until I've reached the respective level that you would've unlocked those. Anyone else?

I think I started playing with or just before issue 21, and I don't think having capes locked was an issue back then?

[Solarverse]

This is long, but should tackle the current

issues players are facing and hopefully

this will not be too controversial but instead

a well thought out compromise for all styles of play.

 

---

 

I am really gritting my teeth on this. I am really hesitant on speaking how I feel about this because every time I do, there are usually the same 4 or 5 posters who do not read everything in context or even the followup conversations after. Instead what I get is people reading one sentence or paragraph, taking things completely out of context and implies false intent and then projecting that false intent, which then leads to strawman arguments where people will say that I said something that I did not, and then they argue that false argument instead of arguing anything that I actually said or implied. If you need to know what a strawman argument is, look it up. It can be very frustrating to have a debate with somebody who uses strawman arguments. Unfortunately, once those strawman arguments are made, you have people who do not even read the thread and they only read the last page which contains that strawman argument, which leads to them jumping on the strawman argument bandwagon. The only people reading the thread who know any better, are the people who read it from page 1 to the final page and have most likely seen half the posts that got deleted by a GM in between. Then we have those few select posters who are straight up smart-asses. These are the people who just comment to try and jump on the bash the (enter name of Original Poster here) bandwagon because they did not even bother to read the thread, all they read was the strawman arguments made against somebody and the whole thing just ends up a complete mess, ends up locked and becomes a complete waste of time. I'm not salty about it though but I feel that I should be salty about it. However, I just can't be. I understand why these things happen on a deep psychological level so it makes it much easier to cope with when I see this type of thing unfold before my very eyes. This is a very controversial topic and it is very hard to have this conversation without people feeling attacked in some way because they feel like the status quo is under fire. To be clear, I absolutely love a good debate. I consider myself somewhat of an intellect and I get a certain level of dopamine when I have an equally intelligent (or more so) individual/s who can logically challenge a view point that I may have. Having said all of that, I want to attempt to get some common ground here and see if we can't find a way for all types of players to find a way for everyone to get what they desire from this game, without having a negative impact on anyone else's way of playing the game.

So, I know putting people in to little boxes or groups is generally bad. I understand this. However, there are no absolutes and this is one of those times when putting people in to categories is absolutely necessary since it is people's different ways that they enjoy the game that seem to be in conflict here. So the types of players that we have that pertain to this discussion and the proposed change I am about to toss out there are as follows.

 

• Players who prefer a challenging game that requires teams to play collectively in a very organized way in order to achieve a goal with a big reward at the end.

 

These are the players who love to run the type of missions that are way more difficult than your typical leveling missions. These are the players that combine strategies with math in order to defeat the content and they work hard to develop these strategies over time. They get a certain level of thrill when they finally accomplish their goal through hard work and dedication and they are proud of the rewards they obtain after completing such a challenge.

 

• Players who prefer to play casually and do not wish anything in game to be gated behind content.

 

These are the players who for whatever reason, it could be time limitations, it could be they simply do not find difficult missions that require that level of persistence to be fun, it could be any reason at all, but for their own reasons, they prefer a causal game in where anything in game at all is completely achievable on their own and they do not want to be forced in to these types of teams to get the shiny that would otherwise be unachievable for them. These players play to relax and for them, running the types of missions mentioned above is far from relaxing and most certainly not fun.

 

• Players who prefer to play the game solo

 

These players get the most out of their gaming experience when they can play at their own pace. Maybe it is because they simply are not very sociable, perhaps they do not get any enjoyment when other players have any kind of interaction if it conflicts with their style of playing. Perhaps it is because their PC's are a bit outdated and any other members of a team can cause their game to freeze up. Or maybe they just prefer the calm of solo play over the sometimes chaos of group play. Whatever their reasons, they prefer to play the content solo and they do not feel there should be any content in game that they should be locked out of due to a mission or shiny being locked behind difficult missions or missions that require teams.

 

---

 

The problem we have today is that this game was once the very type of game that the first group of players used to love, because this game had much of what they wanted in those days. Sadly, little by little all of the content that was once difficult became less difficult for multiple reason. The addition of the difficulty slider, allowing the shiny at the end to be available upon character creation. Changing zones that were once Hazard Zones and turning them in to a practical schoolyard playground instead. Inventions with set bonuses making more powerful characters that can even solo AVs...or worse, Werner Rules ITFs. All of the things this game once had that was difficult and locked behind gated content, the Devs little by little made easy as more and more players over time requested things that made this game easier over time.

The problem with this is that by doing this, the Devs of those times alienated one group of players in favor of the other group of players. This caused an exodus of those players after this happened and with that exodus of players, came a lot less amount of players in favor of keeping the game with a certain level of difficulty on the forums; which left only the few who remained a very small minority to make such a request as the one in this thread. Players like myself and the OP remember when this game was challenging and getting that shiny at the end was exhilarating. Unfortunately, there is no longer a sense of accomplishment left in this game for people like us. When zones like The Hollows were changed, that was kind of the final nail in the coffin for us. Once that happened, we knew that the type of game we cherished had been removed from us, made easier to play and then given to the other types of players instead. We knew that at this point there was no turning back the hands of time and that certain level of difficulty and sense of reward was gone forever...or was it?

So, how in this situation do all players get what they want, when what those players want directly conflict with the other type of player's status quo? That does indeed present a challenge and is like an unstoppable object colliding with an immovable object. Unless...

What if any new content that was released that was very difficult and challenging did indeed have some really cool shiny behind it, gated behind it, but was obtainable in the Merit Vendor? Let's say for an example, a new costume style...if a Dev made Solarverse's costume available in game, I would be willing to pay 100 or more merits to unlock it if I were not the type of player who wanted to run the content to get it. At the same time, whatever Task Force or set of missions that the shiny would be available through, could also be made to challenge even solo players but be something that is achievable with hard work and dedication. Not only could we unlock the shiny costume piece or whatever by running this content, we would also unlock badges for doing so. Before you hammer down on me for mentioning badges being locked behind content, there would be three types of badges you could get for this content, and you can only have one of them depending on how you go about obtaining them. But no matter what, you can only have one.

 

So we already know that the shiny at the end of such content can be bought at the merit vendor. Say that nice costume design, or that new Pool Power Unlock, or whatever we put at the end of the content that is not restricted only to completion of the content, but can be bought at the merit vendor for a decent but fair price if you do not wish to run said content. Now that we have the shiny taken care of, how do we go about obtaining badges? We do not wish to leave out badge hunters here, so we need to include them in a way that they too can be satisfied with the outcome of locking goodies behind content.

 

So, let's make up a badge and name it, "Solarverse's Brainstorm Badge" in honor of my brilliant idea! Just kidding, I am not that stuck on myself....or am I? So anyway, we now have the badge. There can be three ways to get this badge, the problem is, which version of the badge are you going to get? Yes, there will be three versions of the same badge that indicates how you achieved your badge...but at the end of the day, it's the same badge and you can only have one at a time. Whichever way you obtained the badge last, is the way the badge displays on your character.

• The White background with Black inscription Solarverse's Brainstorm Badge: You have ran Solarverse's Task Force with a group of super powered companions and saved this city from utter galactic chaos! Obtained by running an 8 man team of Solarverse's Task Force!

 

• The Black background with White inscription Solarverse's Brainstorm Badge: You have ran Solarverse's Task Force as a lone wolf hero and have saved this city from utter galactic chaos! Obtained by running Solarverse's Task Force solo!

 

• The Grey background with Gold inscription Solarverse's Brainstorm Badge: You have helped fund Solarverse's Task Force as a wealthy hero and your charitable donations played a game changer role in saving this city from utter galactic chaos! Obtained by making a gracious donation to the cause; purchasable at any Merit Vendor for 100 Merits!

---

 

As you can see, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Which version of the badge you have is only important to your point of view and play-style of the game. There is no first place badge, second or third, which is why I did not use Gold, Silver or Bronze backgrounds, but instead the only difference is, the color variation of your badge and the description of your badge. Now, which version of the badge you have will update per the latest way that you obtained the badge. If you ran this as an 8 man team, you earn the White Colored badge, if you then later solo this Task Force, you then will have the White Colored badge removed and replaced with the Black Colored badge. If you funded the task force and earned the grey colored badge and then solo the task force later, the grey colored badge will be removed and replaced with the black colored badge. Everybody wins, there are no losers, everyone gets what they want.

Also...Make The Hollows a Hazard Zone again! We already have a place for level 5-15 to go that is regular difficulty, Hollows needs to be an actual Hazard zone again and the contacts in there can be combined to create a new TF. I mentioned this before that people who prefer a more challenging game should have a place where they can feel more challenged. Players who prefer less difficulty can go to Kings Row, players who prefer more difficulty have nowhere to go. The Hollows needs to be challenging like it was meant to be.

 

That zone has potential to be made the go-to place for level 6-16. They could maybe even add to the Flux (Frostfire) story arc by taking David Wincott, Flux, and Julius and combine them in to a 2 or 3 part Task Force. Change the zone back to a real Hazard zone by making the enemies a bit tougher (starting at level 10 mobs all the way to level 20 mobs) and increasing the size of the mobs like they used to be. Then they could do away with the mobs that really just don't belong there and bring the zone back to being what it once was by only having Trolls, Outcast, Igneous and CoT. Add a few missions here and there, make Bedrock, Gunther, Snap, Greased Lightning, Rundum and Mantle Elite Bosses. Change Frostfire and Gundor and make them AV's in this Task Force and it gives players a whole new reason to enter The Hollows for more reasons than just nostalgia. Now they have a Task Force that combines three contacts and give a whole new reason to take out Frostfire and Gundor while adding a bit of challenge to not only the missions, but the zone as well. Then they could drop that silly contact that literally takes you nowhere in the game and that zone will now be the go-to place to go after running the DFB a single time.

 

That zone needs to be dangerous again like it once was. The Hollows was made to be challenging, not the playground that it is today. People who want normal difficulty have Kings Row for that. The Hollows needs to be that place that players can count on to be challenging like it once was. The mobs used to be stronger, more of them per group and the zone was filled with them. Almost everything you fought in there was red con or purple con. You just didn't do it by yourself unless you have simply out leveled the mobs. It was a Hazard zone for a reason and it needs to be a Hazard zone again IMO. However, same rules that applies in the Solarverse's Task Force example can also be applied to The new Hollows.

So...I am all about compromises and in my educated opinion, I believe this is the only perceptible way to this date that we can give everyone what they want without excluding others from the juicy prizes. However, we simply cannot keep kicking down people who want a challenge and then tell them, "then stop using IO's and make the game challenging for yourself" as the go-to answer for people like us. I don't think you really understand just how insulting that statement is. We also want to enjoy the game on the same level as anyone else.

Thoughts?

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Solarverse
Editing Error

[Greycat]

... I think you oversimplify quite a bit there, starting with categorizing players into different (and by the sound of your descriptions, exclusive) categories.  And also make broad assumptions about them. For instance, why do you separate solo players from those who'd want a challenge? I mean, there are players who will play solo - and specifically work towards being able to solo, say, every GM in the game or an Incarnate trial.

 

You're already hobbling what you want to try to describe just by doing that.

 

Second, we've had a discussion between us about the Hollows, and a lot of what you  - I think your words were "salivated over," but if not, well, it was the image that stuck in my head 🙂  - was not "difficulty," or the difficulty/challenge, but a good portion was inconvenience. In any case, even if they brought the old Hollows, including bugs and/or hardware limitations that had mobs spawn right on top of you, back tomorrow, the "challenge" still would not be there. You'd essentially have to spin up your own server, with the old pool power scheme so there are no travel powers, no IOs - and then edit the zone to remove the hospital and trainer. And find some way to block being able to get to SG bases. Because, simply, even cutting-pasting the old Hollows in with the current game would be a vastly different experience from what you had previously. (And I think I could count the number of people who'd look forward to sprinting back from Atlas when they died on one hand, and have fingers left over.)

 

Plus, there's a difference between "challenge" and "inconvenience." Mob placement and such? OK, I'll throw that under challenge. Restrict travel powers so you can only sprint across (since, face it, even back in the day hover made getting around trivial,) and it would be a challenge to get around. (And, honestly, I seem to remember making the point on live that this taught aggro radius the hard way.) Removing the trainer, store and (most of all) hospital? Those two are just inconveniences.

 

Or, putting it another way... If I want to climb a mountain, run a marathon, get a difficult certification, learn to drive (and win) in a race? Those are all challenges. I can train and work at overcoming them, and be justifiably proud at doing so. Getting up to go to work and finding my subdivision suddenly has road work closing the street and I have to drive ten or twenty miles out of the way to get to work now? That's an inconvenience, not a challenge. (Or having a tree fall down and crush my car - that's very much an inconvenience. There's not really anything I could do to overcome it... sort of like those insta-popup mobs - not the pumicites, who you just have to pay attention to spot, but the troll and other spawns that used to show up in the street right on top of you.)

 

Honestly, you can experience *now* what I mean by "you'd have to change everything else." You say the Hollows is too easy now. Faultline, of course, was changed to a story zone, though the old version's still in Echo to be experienced. Boomtown is mostly untouched, Crey's as well - but I don't think anyone who's played from early live to now would consider them anywhere *near* as "hazardous" of a zone, and not just from familiarity. People (including those who don't "do builds," like me) casually wander into Crey's or Eden to wipe out 30 enemies to get a costume slot these days... and those are still hazard zones, which haven't changed. The game and the players *have,* though, and they *just aren't as big a deal* any more.

 

Plus, I don't think your requested changes to the hollows would make it the "go to" place at all. Taking the story arcs and turning them into task forces means, for instance, there's one *fewer* place or path for someone to take while leveling. (I already don't have the choice to start in Galaxy, after all, and redside's always seeing the same few zones in the same order is one of the reasons I don't play my redsiders a lot.) I think most people would just put it down as a "don't bother unless one of them is the WTF" place, quite honestly, as (by taking those missions and turning them into TFs) you've *removed* reason for anyone to casually check it out.

 

Third (I'm jumping around your post, sorry 🙂  ) you and I will probably *never* agree on the specific example of locking costume pieces away behind content. Though I don't think that's news from talking before.  I'm one of those who's glad that was done away with, because part of the enjoyment of the game is making *your* character *yours,* as opposed to World of EverMining Nights where you can be wizard #2094782 at level 23 with level 23 equipment that looks like every other set of that equipment, but maybe you paid 100 gold to dye it fuscia. No, I don't even agree on "well, you can unlock it for merits." Having to win or unlock purely cosmetic items is annoying in every single game I've run into it in.  Start locking cosmetics away again, and you might as well tell me I have to be a featureless grey blob running generic powers to 50, not a character. Those costume parts not only are *used by* characters, but at times inspire their creation. That shouldn't be locked away.

 

That said, I'm honestly not sure where you get this:

 

Quote

Before you hammer down on me for mentioning badges being locked behind content

 

... when that's done already. Badges already *are* the shiny at the end of content. (And in most cases I'll argue to keep them challenging.) Yes, you have an interesting twist on some - whether I agree with it would really be a case by case thing, and I've already made similar suggestions for (for instance) the "keep fir bolg from escaping" mission based on escapes (there's that soloist who enjoys the challenge, btw) - but these *are* the things to strive for now, and *are* as mentioned already locked behind content. You *have* to help defeat Lusca for Devilfish. You *have* to run Moonfire for Honorary Peacebringer. You *have* to do specific actions (or not do them) for the various Master Of badges.

 

Anyway, that's typing enough for now.