"So What's Good?": Advice For New Players

[Zumberge]

(I was a little inspired by Zolgar's post on CoH's mechanics and how they differ from WoW, and after seeing the subject come up on the boards a lot and hearing people ask about it in the Help channel I felt like trying to whip up something to address the issue.  If anyone with more experience than me reads this and sees a problem, point it out real quick and I'll amend the issue or, if this is too misleading, scrub the topic entirely.)

 

So you just installed City of Heroes and you're a little overwhelmed by the sheer amount of options.  Maybe you're a new player, maybe you're a returning player who forgot a lot of what they knew, or maybe you remember a lot but know nothing about the new power sets and archetype that were added.  So you might be asking a question that a lot of people have asked before you, even when the game was live:

 

"What's good?  What's viable?"

 

Here's the thing: Everything is viable, and I'll tell you why.

 

I can't pretend to know where you came from or what your history in games is, but I can give some examples you might understand: It's not like Final Fantasy 5 where the Berserker job isn't worth using because you get better jobs earlier.  It's not like D&D 3.5 where the Cleric and Druid completely blow Fighters out of the water.  It's not like Marvel vs. Capcom 2 where Magneto and Sentinel are leagues above Roll and Dan.  It's not like World of Warcraft where... well, it's not like World of Warcraft.

 

The point is that you can pick whatever power sets you want and function entirely well.  Are there sets that are better than others?  Depending on what you want to do and what you're fighting, yes.  Are there power sets with good synergy?  Yes.  Are you gimping yourself if you don't pick them?  No.  Will people will get angry at you if you don't take them?  Hell no.  I would go so far as to say that you could put together an eight-person team of eight different archetypes, all using the worst primary and secondary sets in their respective categories, and they could still handle high-level content with no problems.  The important part is knowing how to play what you've got rather than what you have.

 

Above and beyond other MMOs of its time, and even now, City of Heroes gives you an absurd amount of creative freedom.  Do you have a superhero you made when you were 15 that you want to make in game?  You can do that.  Are you sitting there wondering, "Professor X is cool, but what if his legs worked?  And he's a werewolf!  With a shotgun!"  Absolutely possible.  Even if you pick an objectively "good" set of powers, if you don't enjoy using them or like the idea then what's the point?

 

So don't worry about accidentally picking "bad" sets right off the bat; just go with what you think is cool or fits your concept and learn and try to have fun.  If it doesn't work out you can just delete the character and try something else.  Once you have some experience under your belt, then you can start worrying about optimal builds if you want.

[Azrath]

  Are you sitting there wondering, "Professor X is cool, but what if his legs worked?  And he's a werewolf!  With a shotgun!"  Absolutely possible. 

What AT lets you pick mind control and assault rifle?

[_NOPE_]

+1 Inf for this post.

[egoprovince]

  Are you sitting there wondering, "Professor X is cool, but what if his legs worked?  And he's a werewolf!  With a shotgun!"  Absolutely possible. 

What AT lets you pick mind control and assault rifle?

 

Blaster - Assault Rifle / Mental Manipulation

[Solvernia]

This guide, while in good faith, is not entirely accurate. While any powerset choice, when properly built, can be viable, there are some that are objectively bad without optimization.

 

When a new player asks "What is a good powerset", you should tell them what is a good powerset. They are asking for specifics. Saying "play what you want" is not an answer to that question, and is more confusing than helpful to people that ask that kind of question.

 

Give people advice on something easy and low-maintenance but still powerful -- like, say, a SS/WP brute if they want to punch things or a Beam/EA sentinel if they want to shoot things -- and then when they have a grasp of the mechanics, then they can try their hand the more difficult and less optimal powersets.

 

Don't trick newbies into making a Trick Arrow defender because they wanted to be Green Arrow and you told them to 'play what they want'. Trick Arrow is decent in the hands of a veteran player who knows how to optimize their build and afford set IOs, but nobody deserves to suffer through Trick Arrow as their first character.

[justicebeliever]

This guide, while in good faith, is not entirely accurate. While any powerset choice, when properly built, can be viable, there are some that are objectively bad without optimization.

 

When a new player asks "What is a good powerset", you should tell them what is a good powerset. They are asking for specifics. Saying "play what you want" is not an answer to that question, and is more confusing than helpful to people that ask that kind of question.

 

There were really 3 ideas in the OP

1.) What's viable - I agree 100% with the OP - they are all viable, and nobody should be giving you a hard time because of the choices you've made.  If they ask - how do I do X better - offer suggestions - but that doesn't make them bad, because

2.) What's fun - all the sets can be fun.  It just depends why you are playing - is it PL fast?  to feel Uber?  to be the best PVP?  To have fun teaming once a week?  to have fun teaming daily?  to solo?  to role-play?  It just depends and for that reason there is no objectively bad

3.) What's good - And I would chokingly, agree with you Solvernia, that if asked, you should tell the person (much like they do in the forums), what are some good options, only after understanding #2 above

 

So you just installed City of Heroes and you're a little overwhelmed by the sheer amount of options.  Maybe you're a new player, maybe you're a returning player who forgot a lot of what they knew, or maybe you remember a lot but know nothing about the new power sets and archetype that were added.  So you might be asking a question that a lot of people have asked before you, even when the game was live:

 

"What's good?  What's viable?"

 

Here's the thing: Everything is viable, and I'll tell you why.

 

The point is that you can pick whatever power sets you want and function entirely well.  Are there sets that are better than others?  Depending on what you want to do and what you're fighting, yes.  Are there power sets with good synergy?  Yes.  Are you gimping yourself if you don't pick them?  No.  Will people will get angry at you if you don't take them?  Hell no.  I would go so far as to say that you could put together an eight-person team of eight different archetypes, all using the worst primary and secondary sets in their respective categories, and they could still handle high-level content with no problems.  The important part is knowing how to play what you've got rather than what you have.

 

Above and beyond other MMOs of its time, and even now, City of Heroes gives you an absurd amount of creative freedom.  Do you have a superhero you made when you were 15 that you want to make in game?  You can do that.  Are you sitting there wondering, "Professor X is cool, but what if his legs worked?  And he's a werewolf!  With a shotgun!"  Absolutely possible.  Even if you pick an objectively "good" set of powers, if you don't enjoy using them or like the idea then what's the point?

 

So don't worry about accidentally picking "bad" sets right off the bat; just go with what you think is cool or fits your concept and learn and try to have fun.  If it doesn't work out you can just delete the character and try something else.  Once you have some experience under your belt, then you can start worrying about optimal builds if you want.

 

Great Post!  +1 Inf to Zumberge

 

 

[thorsmitersaw]

Don't trick newbies into making a Trick Arrow defender because they wanted to be Green Arrow and you told them to 'play what they want'. Trick Arrow is decent in the hands of a veteran player who knows how to optimize their build and afford set IOs, but nobody deserves to suffer through Trick Arrow as their first character.

 

this was one of my characters on the old live servers before sets and IOs and whatever all that crap is. I had a blast. And I never took a travel power either. I got kicked for not having heals sometimes by ignorant jerks, but I was always useful and I always felt like I added a lot to the team.

[Herotu]

This guide, while in good faith, is not entirely accurate. While any powerset choice, when properly built, can be viable, there are some that are objectively bad without optimization.

 

When a new player asks "What is a good powerset", you should tell them what is a good powerset. They are asking for specifics. Saying "play what you want" is not an answer to that question, and is more confusing than helpful to people that ask that kind of question.

 

Give people advice on something easy and low-maintenance but still powerful -- like, say, a SS/WP brute if they want to punch things or a Beam/EA sentinel if they want to shoot things -- and then when they have a grasp of the mechanics, then they can try their hand the more difficult and less optimal powersets.

 

Don't trick newbies into making a Trick Arrow defender because they wanted to be Green Arrow and you told them to 'play what they want'. Trick Arrow is decent in the hands of a veteran player who knows how to optimize their build and afford set IOs, but nobody deserves to suffer through Trick Arrow as their first character.

 

Thank you SO much for spelling this out for the oldbies. It's exactly what I've been trying to say for ages.

[ratinox]

"What's good?  What's viable?"

 

Here's the thing: Everything is viable, and I'll tell you why.

 

No, it's not, and I'll tell you why by way of a specific example.

 

My very first character, back on I2 or I3, was one of the worst possible combinations the game has to offer: Illusion/Force Field Controller. Solo was the worst slog ever. Low damage from the primary (this was before Containment), zero benefit from the secondary, and then ED happened which left me with 2+ minutes down time between PA summons. Team play I was a bubble-bot with little to do between refreshes besides leech XP.

 

I honestly cannot think of anything as objectively bad as Illusion Force Field.

 

So yeah. Almost everyhing is viable.

[_NOPE_]

EVERYTHING is viable, but not eveything is for everybody. The build you disdain just obviously isn't meant for you or your interests and playstyle.

[ratinox]

EVERYTHING is viable, but not eveything is for everybody. The build you disdain just obviously isn't meant for you or your interests and playstyle.

No, it's not a matter of play style or interest. Illusion lacks sustained damage and Force Field does nothing to offset the poor sustain. Try it some time. Spoiler: you will run into elite bosses in story arcs that you will be unable to defeat and you won't be able to progress without being carried or through the content or outleveling it through other grinding.

 

It really is a non-viable powerset combo.

[_NOPE_]

That's what friends are for.

[ratinox]

That's what friends are for.

Friends or not, there is still a distinction between being part of a team and being carried by that team.

[Zolgar]

That's what friends are for.

Friends or not, there is still a distinction between being part of a team and being carried by that team.

 

There's a whole secondary there which, in teams, is actually quite beneficial. And once you hit 18 and get Phantom Army, you can now absorb alphas for the party, and contribute to damage in a meaningful way (with PA's long recharge, only in major fights unfortunately).

 

You have superior invisibility, so you can stealth through the map, and if you take Recall Friend, you can port the entire party to the final room, if they're the kind of team that likes to play that way.

 

Ill/FF may be terrible solo, but it is perfectly viable in a team. Especially since now Containment is a thing, and you can always dabble in to the Sorcery pool for a second ranged attack if you need to (it does work nicely with containment).

[Zolgar]

This guide, while in good faith, is not entirely accurate. While any powerset choice, when properly built, can be viable, there are some that are objectively bad without optimization.

 

When a new player asks "What is a good powerset", you should tell them what is a good powerset. They are asking for specifics. Saying "play what you want" is not an answer to that question, and is more confusing than helpful to people that ask that kind of question.

 

Give people advice on something easy and low-maintenance but still powerful -- like, say, a SS/WP brute if they want to punch things or a Beam/EA sentinel if they want to shoot things -- and then when they have a grasp of the mechanics, then they can try their hand the more difficult and less optimal powersets.

 

Don't trick newbies into making a Trick Arrow defender because they wanted to be Green Arrow and you told them to 'play what they want'. Trick Arrow is decent in the hands of a veteran player who knows how to optimize their build and afford set IOs, but nobody deserves to suffer through Trick Arrow as their first character.

 

I get where you're coming from, and to an extent I even agree, but there is a factor you're not considering with this:

 

The fun factor.

 

Let's say I am a huge fan of Hawkeye and I want to play something like him.

My options are:

Archery/Tactical Arrow blaster

Archery/Martial blaster

Archery/Trick Arrow Corrupter

Trick arrow/Archery Defender

 

I decide I like the idea of party support, so I go the Corr rout. I am in love with this character and their concept, I enjoy who they are.. I will learn how to play them, I will figure out how to make them work.

 

If though, I start making my corr and someone goes "no daz shit, play dis instead." and I actually listen to them and make a Water/Rad corr or something, I have no connection to it, it's not who I wanted to play, I'm just slapping two power sets together because someone told me they are good. It's not fun for me.

 

Yes, I fully acknowledge that in the archery/ta scenario, I might find the character slow and painful to play, it's possible I will lose interest... but it's also possible I'll talk to veterans who know how to play an Archery/TA and be better for it.

 

Everyone handles things differently.

 

The best you can do is let people know that some things are trickier to play than others, or are not as powerful late game as others, and let them make the decision for themselves.

[Silk]

This guide, while in good faith, is not entirely accurate. While any powerset choice, when properly built, can be viable, there are some that are objectively bad without optimization.

 

When a new player asks "What is a good powerset", you should tell them what is a good powerset. They are asking for specifics. Saying "play what you want" is not an answer to that question, and is more confusing than helpful to people that ask that kind of question.

 

Give people advice on something easy and low-maintenance but still powerful -- like, say, a SS/WP brute if they want to punch things or a Beam/EA sentinel if they want to shoot things -- and then when they have a grasp of the mechanics, then they can try their hand the more difficult and less optimal powersets.

 

Don't trick newbies into making a Trick Arrow defender because they wanted to be Green Arrow and you told them to 'play what they want'. Trick Arrow is decent in the hands of a veteran player who knows how to optimize their build and afford set IOs, but nobody deserves to suffer through Trick Arrow as their first character.

 

I agree.

 

As someone who has never played before on the official servers I find I get answer like above which are not really helpful. 

 

Some of us do not want to reinvent the wheel, do not want to play for 6 months intensively to"figure stuff out for ourselves".  I mean yes we will learn as we play but we don't necessarily want to have to figure out all the minutia when others can simply give us answers as they have already.

 

Also some of us do look at other guides and old builds but then we do not know what is relevant and what isn't especially those of us that never played before and have no idea what power, io sets etc etc came out when and was nerfed when or supplanted  by xyz in terms or raw damage/def etc etc.

 

 

[Rathulfr]

It seems to me that the big problem nobody has mentioned here is that there is no one-size-fits-all answer to the question "what's good", because defining "good" is entirely subjective.  What I consider good may be vastly different than what most other players consider good.  Some people want some want RP, some want min/max PVE, some want PVP, some want exploration, some want digital dollies, etc.  For example, some ATs/power sets that might be good for min/max PVE are often terrible for PVP, and vice-versa.  Same with builds for solo versus team play.  Same with builds for missions versus farming.

 

So before we can say "play what you want, it's all good" or "no, that's not true", we need level set on expectations and definitions of what we mean by "good" or "fun".

 

[justicebeliever]

It seems to me that the big problem nobody has mentioned here is that there is no one-size-fits-all answer to the question "what's good", because defining "good" is entirely subjective.  What I consider good may be vastly different than what most other players consider good.  Some people want some want RP, some want min/max PVE, some want PVP, some want exploration, some want digital dollies, etc.  For example, some ATs/power sets that might be good for min/max PVE are often terrible for PVP, and vice-versa.  Same with builds for solo versus team play.  Same with builds for missions versus farming.

 

So before we can say "play what you want, it's all good" or "no, that's not true", we need level set on expectations and definitions of what we mean by "good" or "fun".

 

 

I mentioned it and think that was the sprit of the orignal poster as well.  I couldn't agree more

 

There were really 3 ideas in the OP

1.) What's viable - I agree 100% with the OP - they are all viable, and nobody should be giving you a hard time because of the choices you've made.  If they ask - how do I do X better - offer suggestions - but that doesn't make them bad, because

2.) What's fun - all the sets can be fun.  It just depends why you are playing - is it PL fast?  to feel Uber?  to be the best PVP?  To have fun teaming once a week?  to have fun teaming daily?  to solo?  to role-play?  It just depends and for that reason there is no objectively bad

3.) What's good - And I would chokingly, agree with you Solvernia, that if asked, you should tell the person (much like they do in the forums), what are some good options, only after understanding #2 above

 

 

Great Post!  +1 Inf to Zumberge

[_NOPE_]

It seems to me that the big problem nobody has mentioned here is that there is no one-size-fits-all answer to the question "what's good", because defining "good" is entirely subjective.  What I consider good may be vastly different than what most other players consider good.  Some people want some want RP, some want min/max PVE, some want PVP, some want exploration, some want digital dollies, etc.  For example, some ATs/power sets that might be good for min/max PVE are often terrible for PVP, and vice-versa.  Same with builds for solo versus team play.  Same with builds for missions versus farming.

 

So before we can say "play what you want, it's all good" or "no, that's not true", we need level set on expectations and definitions of what we mean by "good" or "fun".

 

Exactly. In my opinion, what's "good" or "viable" is what brings something valuable to a team... what allows a player to "earn" their "way". That isn't necessarily always DPS. Often times, damage mitigation is needed. That's why I say that ANY build is "viable", because something that Cryptic/NCSoft/Paragon Studios did really well was design the ATs in such a way that EVERY set of power choices contributes something to the "team". You have to REALLY work hard to "gimp" yourself enough that you being on the team is somehow worse than you NOT being on the team.

[craggy]

Hey, my main was/is a Trick Arrow/Archery Defender!  :p

 

I took it because I had a concept in mind, and it was a very different visual to just shooting some form of energy blast. I'd originally intended it to be an alt but think he was my first 50, because I enjoyed the variety of powers and oil + fire was just loads of fun.

 

I have sometimes felt either under appreciated or underperformimg but I did the first Positron TF the other night and my team were getting owned by my doppelganger til we took him out, so that made me feel a little better.

[Bropine]

The best you can do is let people know that some things are trickier to play than others, or are not as powerful late game as others, and let them make the decision for themselves.

 

That's pretty much the point that Solvernia was trying to make.

[Cheli]

When people ask 'what's good?' they're trying to avoid poor design choices or traps, and they're asking you for advice. 'play what you want!' is not useful advice for people, especially new players, who might not even know what they want to play, or how what they want to play translates into CoX terms.

 

A new player isn't going to know that Elec Blast is strictly inferior to other sets without optimization because its secondary -end effect is mostly useless because of how the game's endurance system works for NPCs. And a new player might want to take that into account when choosing what they pick if what they want to play is 'a character that does the most damage'.

 

If people have specific concepts in mind and pick powersets for thematic reasons, that's fine. But that's generally not what people are talking about when they ask for advice on 'what's good'.

 

If a person wanted an 'electric' character for concept, and wanted to also do good damage, actual useful advice would be to maybe recommend Elec Melee or Elec Control paired with a good DD secondary on dominator. And if they're set on Elec Blast you could give advice as to how to shore up the set's weaknesses.

[AugustDrake]

"All builds are good" is great advice and also terrible advice. A lot of builds can be very challenging for new players. My first toon was a trick arrow/archery defender, just like someone else mentioned, and you know what? I followed that up with an illusion/empathy troller. Only a teenaged contrarian desire to intentionally run a suboptimal build and make it work kept me going. I don't have that drive now; I would call that bad design and quit. First time I rolled a blaster I thought I was playing an entirely different game.

 

Yes, all builds are beautiful for reasons - I'm sure even an illusion/forcefield controller can somehow be made to work, though hell if I know how - but it's not practical advice to give to someone who would be asking such a question. Like, I'm sorry to join this dogpile, and I get the message behind it, but I'll echo sentiments from other posters here that it's a statement that can only be made from someone who already has system mastery.

 

Or already has a fire/kin at 50. :)

[mousestalker]

Friends do not let friends create energy/energy blasters as their first character. Trust me on this. Or Trick Arrow/Archery. They aren't bad builds but they have a steeper learning curve than  other builds. And not knowing how to use your knockback (for an energy blaster) can get you a bad reputation early on and hinder you from being able to group up. There are newby friendly builds in every archetype (Rad is great for blasting and even has a nice pew pew pew sound). If asked, suggest a few newby builds that will make the new player feel immediately useful.

 

Of course if your goal is to make the person feel unwelcome, steer them towards that petless Mastermind build that keeps being bandied about...

[Justisaur]

Ignoring all that, and actually answering the question as applied to me:

 

* Stone/WP Brute.  Easiest thing I've played, solo or teams, and I've played everything (if not deeply) if you want something easy and don't know what to do, start here.  Starts off very strong.  If you want something slightly more involved and more useful on teams I might suggest going /rad instead of /wp (which wasn't around when I started my St/WP)

* Sonic/Kinetic Corrupter.  You're the most wanted of anything on teams.  You can still solo well, does buffs, debuffs, and works up close and personal - I might say Defender these days as it's higher buffs/debuffs which offsets the loss of damage, kins with -def attacks are also good since kin relies on hitting for most of it's heal, buffs and debuffs, Rad and Water are good other choices with kin for that reason - I'd tend to stick more to corruptor with those sets since they don't have the -resistance to increase your damage. 

* Veat Night Widow or Bane.  You want to do melee, with maybe a ranged attack or two, and buff the team too.  This is the best way to do so, very much wanted on teams, can be set up to tank, or scrap, or stalk, and can be set up with a second build to be more pets, aoe, or controls as a Crab or Fortuna allowing you to switch back and forth to do what you want at that moment.  Still viable solo.

* Bots/Storm Mastermind - You want to solo only and you love chaos, bodies being thrown everywhere, stealth through missions, can handle some AVs/GMs eventually too.

 

Stuff I *DON'T* recommend, as it will only lead to disillusionment, disappointment, and heartache.

* Make a copy of an existing superhero, they're likely to be a fairly bad combo not at all like what you imagined.

* Make a copy of a D&D/Wow class.  CoH is different, and trying to do the same role the same way won't work like it does in that other game, this goes doubly for healers.  The exception being if you like Rogues or Thieves, as Stalkers are really good and do that job Street Justice/Bio probably the best.

* Farming.  Really, don't farm or be PLed, it's not necessary, it's the journey, not the destination, don't ruin that journey with farming.  Join TF/SFs, do mission arcs, Oros, and Tips, and you'll get merits which will get you plenty of money without the mind numbing farming.  Especially AE farming, since that not only impacts you, but the whole sever. 

* Anything that involves much knockback - Energy attacks, storm summoning, force field (unless the Bots/Storm and staying solo.)