Think a Crab needs Tough/Weave?

[JnEricsonx]

I'm just curious, due to not needing to take Fitness this time around.

[Bierfuizl]

No need imho.

 

You can reach very decent res + def numbers with your crab powers and decent IOs alone.

 

Fighting Pool moves you into Tanker territory but without the agro management (no taunt). And takes away other powers that allow for a more active role.

 

My crabbermind started out as tanky hunter build using tough + weave. Was pretty much unkillable but often ended up standing around and pinging with little damage. Crabbermind has massively increased damage. Almost never falls in teams. In solo content on +4 it takes giant monsters or AVs to put a dent into his armor.

[Hyperstrike]

Actually I'm inclined to agree with Bierfuizi somewhat.

No Fighting pool.

 

Spoiler

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.2.19
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Oscar the Grouch: Level 50 Magic Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Crab Spider Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Crab Spider Training
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Channelgun -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(5), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(7)
Level 1: Wolf Spider Armor -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(7), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(11), GldArm-3defTpProc(11)
Level 2: Longfang -- SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDmnofA-Dmg/Rchg(13), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), SprDmnofA-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprDmnofA-Rchg/DmgFear%(17)
Level 4: Crab Spider Armor Upgrade -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(21), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(21), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 6: Aim -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Combat Training: Defensive -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(23), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(25), Rct-ResDam%(25)
Level 10: Suppression -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(27), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(29), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(31)
Level 12: Combat Training: Offensive -- Acc-I(A)
Level 14: Arm Lash -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(31), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(33)
Level 16: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(34)
Level 18: Venom Grenade -- SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprSpdBit-Dmg/Rchg(34), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), SprSpdBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SprSpdBit-Rchg/Global Toxic(36)
Level 20: Tactical Training: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 22: Frag Grenade -- OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg(A), OvrFrc-End/Rech(37), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End(37), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech(37), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(39), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(39)
Level 24: Tactical Training: Leadership -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(39)
Level 26: Frenzy -- Erd-Acc/Rchg(A), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), ClvBlo-Acc/Dmg(40), ClvBlo-Dmg/EndRdx(42), ClvBlo-Dmg/Rchg(42)
Level 28: Fortification -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(42), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(43), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 30: Mental Training -- Run-I(A)
Level 32: Omega Maneuver -- Artl-Acc/Dam(A), Artl-Dam/End(43), Artl-Dam/Rech(45), Artl-Acc/Dam/Rech(45), Artl-Acc/Rech/Rng(45), Artl-End/Rech/Rng(46)
Level 35: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(46)
Level 38: Stealth -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 41: Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(46)
Level 44: Bayonet -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(48), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(50), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(50)
Level 47: Fly -- Frb-Stlth(A)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Conditioning
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Mrc-Rcvry+(19)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(19)
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon
Level 50: Diamagnetic Core Flawless Interface
------------
------------

 

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Granted, using roughly the same number of power choices to get to the same place.

But Fighting is defiintely NOT needed.

[Gulbasaur]

I'll third it - VEATs have high defence and decent resistances. I think people tend to go overkill on survivability a bit at the cost of damage in a lot of builds - unless you're exclusively running +4x8 content for personal challenge, you don't need that sort of armour (and even then it'd be a war of attrition).

[tidge]

/echo

 

I have a VEAT build that dipped into the Fighting pool for MOAR, but I found that I was sacrificing powers/slots that would end fights faster. That build also had serious trouble controlling aggro, so ultimately I felt that it was essentially a variety of the least effective and least interesting Tank I had ever made.

 

I suppose it is possible to try to build a very sturdy, completely team-focused VEAT with the intent of (primarily) standing around while buffing allies, but I feel like that would work against the strengths and potential of the Soldier VEAT. I also suspect that such a build would likely encourage a player to go the Crabbermind route, and my response would be: if your Crab isn't also attacking the performance from the pets will be disappointing.

[Hedgefund]

I'll be contrarian, to an extent.

 

Need?  Nah.

 

Helped by?  I sure think so.  VEATs get the highest value (5%) from Weave and s/l resists gets in line with the other (non psi) damage resists with the inclusion of Tough.

 

Weave not only allows you a means of gaining significant global recharge, but the 7.5 (conservatively) def to all allows for pursuing global recharge in other power rather than as many defense bonuses as needed to make up that amount.  With this, I've got perma pets, a 3 aoe attack chain (then Venom +2 STs when it's down to an AV) so I see no offensive sacrifice.

 

I would share my build but, distressingly enough, I seem to have lost it, probably overwritten.  Oh well.

[Two Dollar Bill]

Since you don't need Weave to soft-cap your positional defenses, I did have a hypothetical build that ditched Fighting. However, I really like my Crab to be as durable as possible and I didn't like the loss of Tough, so I kept the Fighting pool.

 

Spoiler

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Borelli Winter 201128: Level 50 Natural Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Crab Spider Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Crab Spider Training
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Presence

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Channelgun -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(3), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(3), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(5), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(5), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc:50(7)
Level 1: Crab Spider Armor Upgrade -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(37), Ags-ResDam:50(46), Ags-Psi/Status:50(50)
Level 2: Combat Training: Defensive -- ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(A), ShlWal-Def:50(46)
Level 4: Slice -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx:50(7), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(9), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(9), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(11), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc:50(11)
Level 6: Super Jump -- BlsoftheZ-Travel:50(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx:50(37), BlsoftheZ-ResKB:50(37), EndRdx-I:50(39)
Level 8: Suppression -- SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprSpdBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(27), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(29), SprSpdBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(29), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), SprSpdBit-Rchg/Global Toxic:50(31)
Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx:50(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg:50(31), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), RedFrt-Def:50(33), RedFrt-EndRdx:50(34)
Level 12: Venom Grenade -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx:50(13), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(13), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(25), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(25), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc:50(27)
Level 14: Arm Lash -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(15), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(15), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(17), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(17), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(19)
Level 16: Recall Friend -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB:50(A)
Level 18: Frag Grenade -- SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(19), SprDmnofA-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(21), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(21), SprDmnofA-Rchg/DmgFear%:50(23), OvrFrc-Dam/KB:50(23)
Level 20: Tactical Training: Leadership -- GssSynFr--ToHit:50(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg:50(39), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx:50(39), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx:50(40), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx:50(40), GssSynFr--Build%:50(40)
Level 22: Mental Training -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 24: Fortification -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(42), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), UnbGrd-Max HP%:50(43)
Level 26: Maneuvers -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(34), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg:50(34), Rct-Def/Rchg:50(36), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(36), Rct-ResDam%:50(36)
Level 28: Serum -- Prv-Heal:50(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx:50(43), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg:50(43), Prv-Heal/Rchg:50(45), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx:50(45), Prv-Absorb%:50(45)
Level 30: Tactical Training: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 32: Wolf Spider Armor -- ResDam-I:50(A)
Level 35: Aim -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 38: Provoke -- MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg:50(A), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(46), MckBrt-Acc/Rchg:50(50)
Level 41: Intimidate -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 44: Unrelenting -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 47: Teleport -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB:50(A)
Level 49: Combat Training: Offensive -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Conditioning
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+:40(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(48), Pnc-Heal/+End:50(48)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod:50(A), PrfShf-End%:50(48), EndMod-I:50(50)
------------
------------

 

 

 

[Omega-202]

Need, no, but I highly recommend it.  

 

Without Tough (or heavy IO bonus investment), Crab S/L resists are prettt mediocre.  Weave gives a very solid amount of defense to help you overcap, which is crucial when facing defense debuffs because Crabs have no built in debuff resistance.  Weave is also a great LotG spot.

 

You don't need them to do well, but with Tough and Weave you can stand in the middle of +4/8 spawns solo without much of an issue.  Without Tough, good luck tanking any S/L based 54 enemies for very long.  

 

Regarding everyone else's comments on "not having enough power picks", I am honestly confused.  Crabs don't need a lot of powers to work well.  If you build for recharge bonuses, 5-6 total attacks will give you an uninterrupted single target and AoE chain.  

 

And the whole "Crabbermind vs Attacker" dichotomy is bunk, in my opinion.  You can build to do both very easily.  There's nothing stopping you from having 6 perma pets, a full effective attack chain, Tough, Weave and Perma-Serum.  

[Neiska]

On one of my Crabber alt builds, I went the exact opposite. I capped defenses, and went for as much resistances as I could. Resilient Alpha, the whole 9. I ended up with 45% defenses and 85% res to most damage types. She has pets, but they arent perma (but are close). She still has the suppression/venom grenade/toxic grenade cycle. But she also can do things that some other crabbers cant. She has frenzy. So I can park her in a 4/8 farm with that on autocast, and actually "afk" farm on a crabber, which as far as I know not many other crabbers do. 

 

Sure, others will do damage. But I still have my alt crabbermind permapet build I can swap to if I want that. Another one of my builds forgoes pets entirely, because I just wanted to see what was possible.

 

So, I wouldnt say required. But theres nothing wrong with building for durability if you want to go that route. Its really a question of personal taste and what you like and enjoy, which is a question only you can answer. Personally, I love being a supertanky crabber. 

[Hyperstrike]

11 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

I'll third it - VEATs have high defence and decent resistances. I think people tend to go overkill on survivability a bit at the cost of damage in a lot of builds - unless you're exclusively running +4x8 content for personal challenge, you don't need that sort of armour (and even then it'd be a war of attrition).

There is NO SUCH THING as "overkill".

There is only "kill" with ever greater confidence levels...

[Hyperstrike]

6 hours ago, Neiska said:

On one of my Crabber alt builds, I went the exact opposite. I capped defenses, and went for as much resistances as I could. Resilient Alpha, the whole 9. I ended up with 45% defenses and 85% res to most damage types.

 

Can you share the build?

[Neiska]

I cant right this moment, but I can when I get home.

[Neiska]

@Hyperstrike As requested, here's my build. I built differently than most, I tend to favor defense over offense in games. But yea, she's quite tough!

 

https://www.midsreborn.com/builds/download.php?uc=1564&c=718&a=1436&f=HEX&dc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

[mcdoogss]

'Need' is a bit too absolute, and we all know only sith deal in absolutes.  Personally I think Tough/Weave are highly valuable for most builds and crab spiders are no exception.  If nothing else, defense and resist IO sets have some of the best uniques and set bonuses in the game.  Here's my current 'crabbermind', perma hasten/serum, seamless ST and AOE rotations as well as 6 pets and softcapped positionals (obv including tough and weave).  At the moment experimenting with a little extra damage via procs at the cost of psi resist.  It's ranged AOE tank-mage...plus dps pets

 

 

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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

Edited January 23, 2021 by mcdoogss