Clarifying Some Oddball Powers (Controller edition)

[oedipus_tex]

This thread is a variation of the thread in the Dominator forum attempting to deep dive and explain the mechanics behind Dominator powers. 

 

 

@Arbegla had requested a write up of Poison Trap in the Traps set. I had mistaken it for a request for a write up about Poison Trap in the Poison set. Since I am most familiar with the Controller versions of powers I did the write up here; however since Controllers never got Poison on live I had to extrapolate from the Corruptor version.

 

Once again this write up is based on publicly posted i24 source files. It is possible some aspects of these powers have been tweaked for Homecoming or Homecoming-specific engine mechanics may alter how they play.

 

 

EDIT: Updated to correct issues with original post that confused various values between the Traps and Poison version of these powers. Please correct or question anything below that seems wrong, tracing the full path of each of these powers is a bit of a maze.

 

 

Traps > Poison Trap*

*This write up is actually based on the Corruptor version of the power. I do not have access to the code for Controllers, since Traps for Controllers did not exist on live.

 

Poison Trap as a power consists of two pseudo pets, the initial trap you place (we'll call this the "Trap") and the gas that results when you the trap triggers (the "Gas.")

 

 

• The Trap has two powers;
  • Self Destruct
    • 16ft radius sphere, max targets of 1. When this power fires, the Trap dies, and the Gas is summoned.
  • Trap Armor
    • The Trap has comprehensive protection to most things but is technically killable. It's immune to healing and some other assorted effects. It has about 50% resistance to most damage types.

 

• The Gas also has three powers:
• Initial Gas Effect
  • Fires the moment the Gas is summoned
  • Max 16 targets.
  • Radius: 25ft
  • Rolls for Accuracy
  • Effects:
    • 100% Chance for Mag 3 Hold, Scale 4, after a 0.25 second delay. Plays "choking" animation.
• Pulsing Effect (called "Poison Gas" by the game files but called Pulsing Effect here for clarity)
  • Pulse rate: once per second
  • Radius: 25ft
  • Autohit (even the rolls for Holds)
  • Effects:
    • Scale -10 Regeneration for 10 seconds (-30 in PVP)
    • Scale 0.3 -Recharge for 10 seconds
    • 2% chance for Mag 3 Hold, Scale 4 after a 0.25 second delay (note this is per pulse). This hold animates as a "choke" animation (like Char e.g.).
      • Can theoretically stack with itself from a single trap, as unlikely as that is.
    • 1% chance per pulse to play Puke animation. This is not an actual Hold, just an animation. In PVE only works on enemies specifically tagged by the game as "Humans"
      • Puking is not affected by enemy rank. Archvillains are as likely to play the puking animation as minions, as long as they are "Humans"
      • Possible PVP bug: The puking animation uses the same attribute that Dominators use to track their in or out of Domination status. In theory, in PVP for 4 seconds after puking, Dominators get free Domination mode from their powers. I have not tested to verify this. 
• Self Destruct
  • Autofires after a 30 second duration

 

 

Takeaways:

• Damage procs from Holds should fire in both the Initial and Pulsing Gas effects, tho I am not sure how effective they are in the Pulse
  • Since the trap has a 16ft detection range but only 25ft effect radius, it's probably only worth dropping this right in the middle of an existing pack if you loaded up procs
• The Gas is only summoned if an enemy actually gets into range. In theory, if they somehow killed the trap without closing range it would do nothing. Mainly this is worth noting in PVP or if there are any PVE enemies who have this power.
• Multiple Gas clouds stacked on each other should stack their debuff together
• Enemies retain the -Regen debuff for 10 seconds after they exit the Gas. So if they stand in the Gas for the full duration, you can estimate they are debuffed for 40 seconds.
• The Regen debuff is autohit but the initial Hold is not. If using this power just to debuff Archvillains you can ignore Accuracy completely. Proc bomb builds need to account for the initial burst missing though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Poison (Controller Version) > Poison Trap

Poison's version of Poison Trap functions identically to the Traps version, but has the following modifications:

 

• Recharges in 60sec (not 90)
• Changes to the Gas powers:
  • Initial Gas effect:
    • 100% chance for Mag 3 Hold, Scale 8 after a 0.25 sec delay (that is, the initial Hold has double the duration of the Traps version)
  • Pulsing Gas effects:
    • Radius is 15 (not 25 like the Traps version)
    • NOT autohit (unlike Traps version)
    • Does not do any -Regen 
    • Has a 1.5% chance per pulse to do a 0.1 scale Endurance drain. I doubt anyone would even notice this.
    • Scale -1 Recovery for 10 seconds
    • Scale 0.03 Toxic Damage per pulse
    • Same Hold and puke mechanics as Traps version
  • Self Destruct
    • After 30 seconds, same as Traps version,

 

Here's a visualization of the Poison > Poison Trap version to tie it better to the gameplay:

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Arbegla]

Just confirming that this is for Poison trap from /Traps, not Poison trap from /Poison. 🙂

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Just confirming that this is for Poison trap from /Traps, not Poison trap from /Poison. 🙂

 

This is Poison Trap from /Poison. I can look at the /Traps version next although it may have to rely on a version other than the Controller one, since Controllers didn't get Traps on the live game.

[Arbegla]

Ah. Ill/Traps is a pretty popular build now, but it definitely wasn't on live before hand.

[oedipus_tex]

Okay I see an error I made tracing the paths between both pets. I got the Poison version and the Traps version switched around a bit, need a while to clarify the two versions. I'll fix asap.

 

EDIT: Made several corrections to the original post. Added write up for both powers. Hopefully should clarify any confusion.

Edited April 8, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[oedipus_tex]

New write up available.

 

I'm questioning myself about the Hold duration in Poison > Poison Trap. If I'm reading this correctly, it's 100% chance for Mag 3 Hold, Scale 8 (using pet tables), 25ft radius.

 

For a point of reference, Fire Control > Cinders on Dominators outside of Domination mode is a 25ft radius Hold, also scale 8 (archetype tables), with 240 Recharge. Is Poison's Poison Trap really as good as a un-Dominator's AoE Hold with 60 recharge (versus 240)? Its never felt that strong to me but I wasn't looking at it like that. I might be misreading something or maybe this power is much better than most people estimate.

Edited April 8, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Arbegla]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

• Pulsing Effect (called "Poison Gas" by the game files but called Pulsing Effect here for clarity)
  • Pulse rate: once per second
  • Radius: 25ft
  • Autohit (even the rolls for Holds)
  • Effects:
    • Scale -10 Regeneration for 10 seconds (-30 in PVP)
    • Scale 0.3 -Recharge for 10 seconds
    • 2% chance for Mag 3 Hold, Scale 4 after a 0.25 second delay (note this is per pulse). This hold animates as a "choke" animation (like Char e.g.).
      • Can theoretically stack with itself from a single trap, as unlikely as that is.
    • 1% chance per pulse to play Puke animation. This is not an actual Hold, just an animation. In PVE only works on enemies specifically tagged by the game as "Humans"
      • Puking is not affected by enemy rank. Archvillains are as likely to play the puking animation as minions, as long as they are "Humans"
      • Possible PVP bug: The puking animation uses the same attribute that Dominators use to track their in or out of Domination status. In theory, in PVP for 4 seconds after puking, Dominators get free Domination mode from their powers. I have not tested to verify this. 
• Self Destruct
  • Autofires after a 30 second duration

 

 

Takeaways:

• Damage procs from Holds should fire in both the Initial and Pulsing Gas effects, tho I am not sure how effective they are in the Pulse
  • Since the trap has a 16ft detection range but only 25ft effect radius, it's probably only worth dropping this right in the middle of an existing pack if you loaded up procs
• The Gas is only summoned if an enemy actually gets into range. In theory, if they somehow killed the trap without closing range it would do nothing. Mainly this is worth noting in PVP or if there are any PVE enemies who have this power.
• Multiple Gas clouds stacked on each other should stack their debuff together
• Enemies retain the -Regen debuff for 10 seconds after they exit the Gas. So if they stand in the Gas for the full duration, you can estimate they are debuffed for 40 seconds.
• The Regen debuff is autohit but the initial Hold is not. If using this power just to debuff Archvillains you can ignore Accuracy completely. Proc bomb builds need to account for the initial burst missing though.

 

So the pulse from the gas is every second? And every 'pulse' has the -regen/-rech and the 1% chance for Puke (plus 2% change for the hold).

 

Can the pulse stack on itself from the same source? i/e, the overlapping pulses stack the duration/magnitude of the debuffs? Or would multiple traps be required to stack the effects?

[Arbegla]

8 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

New write up available.

 

I'm questioning myself about the Hold duration in Poison > Poison Trap. If I'm reading this correctly, it's 100% chance for Mag 3 Hold, Scale 8 (using pet tables), 25ft radius.

 

For a point of reference, Fire Control > Cinders o Dominators outside of Domination mode is a 25ft radius Hold, also scale 8 (archetype tables), with 240 Recharge. Is Poison's Poison Trap really as good as a un-Dominator's AoE Hold with 60 recharge (versus 240)? Its never felt that strong to me but I wasn't looking at it like that. I might be misreading something or maybe this power is much better than most people estimate.

 

From my understanding of your write up, the scale 8 hold in /Poison's Poison Trap (PPT?) requires an Accuracy check, so if it misses, no hold happens, and then you just have the normal 2% chance for hold during the pulsing. I think people don't typically use PPT for the hold, they use it more for the debuff (though that isn't nearly as good as /Traps Poison Trap, TPT)

[oedipus_tex]

6 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

From my understanding of your write up, the scale 8 hold in /Poison's Poison Trap (PPT?) requires an Accuracy check, so if it misses, no hold happens, and then you just have the normal 2% chance for hold during the pulsing. I think people don't typically use PPT for the hold, they use it more for the debuff (though that isn't nearly as good as /Traps Poison Trap, TPT)

 

 

Right. To be honest until I read the files I didn't realize how the Poison version really worked.

 

A 25ft radius, Scale 8 Hold on 60 sec Recharge is pretty incredible, so I'm wondering if I'm misreading it. It also has no Accuracy penalty versus the AoE Holds.

 

Note that both Controllers and Dominator's AoE Holds are Scale 8 like this power's is, it's just that Controllers have a 1.25 Modifier versus Dominators 1.0. I think pets also have the 1.0 modifier, which is how I derived that Poison's Poison Trap is about the strength of an un-Dominator's AoE Hold, albeit with a 75% shorter recharge and no Accuracy penalty. Another way to put it is it the initial Hold is Controller Cinders or Glacier with 25% shorter duration but 75% faster Recharge/better accuracy.

[Arbegla]

Do we know what enemies/mob types are considered human? Regarding the puke animation?

[oedipus_tex]

On 4/8/2021 at 3:54 PM, Arbegla said:

Do we know what enemies/mob types are considered human? Regarding the puke animation?

 

 

I'm not 100% certain but I believe that is a reference to the PowerTags aspect of the creature. I just had a look at Council and Arachnos. Among Arachnos the following are tagged as Humans (I'm leaving out duplicates):

• Arachnos_Olivia_Darque
• Arachnos_Scirocco
• Arachnos_Black_Scorpion
• Arachnos_Lord_Recluse
• Arachnos_Dr_Quatrexin
• Arachnos_Dr_Aeon
• Arachnos_Agent_Hugo
• Arachnos_Hequat
• Arachnos_ShadowSpider
• Arachnos_Viridian
• Arachnos_Repairman

 

Standard rank Arachnos e.g. Wolf Spiders are tagged as Humanoids, not Humans outright, so not sure if they are included.

 

FWIW the PowerTags I'm able to spot at a quick glance are:

 

• HumanSkeleton
• Human
• Humanoid
• Raid
• Electronic
• IncarnateBoss
• Undead
• Demon
• Beast

 

That final tag, IncarnateBoss, BTW, gives Controllers automatic Containment damage versus anything tagged with it. The final version of Anti-Matter encountered on the Keyes trial uses that for example.

 

Creatures can have more than one PowerTag. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[oedipus_tex]

I just noticed something I missed before.

 

For some reason the Poison version of Poison Trap uses the Melee_Ones table for its Hold duration and not Ranged_Immobilize. The result of this is that its Hold duration doesn't increase with Level, while the Traps version does, along with most other versions of this type of power. So the base Hold duration of Poison's Poison Trap remains locked at its the 8 second duration it has at level 1 while other controls (including the Traps version of the similar power) increase in duration as you level up. At level 50, a Scale 8 Hold from a Dominator is 11.92 seconds, or about 50% longer than Poison's Poison Trap. 

 

I don't know if this is a bug or intentional. It's definitely very strange. I would never have caught it without looking over the stats screen in game over and over. Usually in PVE when a mezz power uses Melee_Ones its mezz duration is not enhanceable, but I just confirmed with a test in game that Poison Trap's Hold duration  is enhanceable.

 

 

 

The more you dig the weirder some powers get. 🙂

Edited April 15, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Arbegla]

I'm glad the deep dive helped. That's why I was really confused on just /Traps Poison Trap, without even realizing that /Poisons Poison Trap was so much different (but also kinda the same, with the trigger, and pulse hold/puke)

 

would calling @Faultline or @Captain Powerhouse over to look this over help resolve some of the possible issues? Not sure if its worth a bug report if its intended behavior.

 

Especially that weird Domination tag you found.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Arbegla

[oedipus_tex]

34 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

I'm glad the deep dive helped. That's why I was really confused on just /Traps Poison Trap, without even realizing that /Poisons Poison Trap was so much different (but also kinda the same, with the trigger, and pulse hold/puke)

 

would calling @Faultline or @Captain Powerhouse over to look this over help resolve some of the possible issues? Not sure if its worth a bug report if its intended behavior.

 

Especially that weird Domination tag you found.

 

 

I'm glad you asked about Poison Trap, because it prompted me to go back and look at Dark Control > Shadow Field. Turns out that also uses the Melee_Ones table. It's hard to catch unless you grab the level slider in the character creation menu and watch the numbers as you move the slider. Shadow Field in particular has a strange read out (it claims a 48 second Hold duration for example because its conflating the duration of the pet summon with the Hold durations in a way I don't fully grasp).

[Faultline]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

would calling @Faultline or @Captain Powerhouse over to look this over help resolve some of the possible issues?

 

I am not a powers dev, I know nothing about this.

[tidge]

16 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I just noticed something I missed before.

 

For some reason the Poison version of Poison Trap uses the Melee_Ones table for its Hold duration and not Ranged_Immobilize. The result of this is that its Hold duration doesn't increase with Level, while the Traps version does, along with most other versions of this type of power. So the base Hold duration of Poison's Poison Trap remains locked at its the 8 second duration it has at level 1 while other controls (including the Traps version of the similar power) increase in duration as you level up. At level 50, a Scale 8 Hold from a Dominator is 11.92 seconds, or about 50% longer than Poison's Poison Trap.

 

 

Thank you for exposing this. I have a -/Poison Controller and a -/Traps Mastermind, and I haven't been impressed with the contribution of the Poison Trap Hold to Controller build as much as I am with the Mastermind build.

[Arbegla]

16 hours ago, Faultline said:

 

I am not a powers dev, I know nothing about this.

But you do know who to poke. 😁

[oedipus_tex]

I had a look at a few additional powers that summon pseudo pets to see which tables their mezzes are pulling from in PVE.

 

 

POWER	TABLE
Poison > Poison Trap	Ones table
Traps  > Poison Trap	Mezz tables
Dark Control > Shadow Field	Ones table
Time Manip > Distortion Field	Mezz tables
Electric Control > Synaptic Overload	Mezz tables
Earth Control > Volcanic Gasses	Mezz tables
Electric Control > Static Field	Mezz tables

 

 

So far only the Poison version of Poison Trap and Shadow Field pull from the Ones tables, so don't flex with caster level. The reason we never likely noticed before is the in-game read outs for these powers are a bit confusing and hard to read. 

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

Coming back to this with some free time. 

 

In this post I'll discuss Containment. This won't be a rundown of every single power that has or does not have it because that was be exhausting. For a lot of people this is mainly just confirmation of what you are already know.

 

 

First Things First

The main thing to know is Containment is not an actual power. It's more of an idea. Containment requires every single power that a Controller can use to dish damage to manually be coded to deal Containment damage.

 

 

The Status Check

The standard Containment formula that checks whether to apply Containment damage is written as follows:

 

enttype target> critter eq  kImmobilized target> 0 >  kHeld target> 0 >  ||  kSleep target> 0 >  ||  kStunned target> 0 >  ||  IncarnateBoss target.hasTag? ||  &&

 

 

This formula basically says apply Containment damage if any of the above are true:

• The target's Immobilized stat is greater than 0
• The target's Held stat is greater than 0
• The target's Sleep stat is greater than 0
• The target's Stunned stat is greater than 0
• The target is tagged as an Incarnate Boss

 

In case you are wondering, mezz protection powers work by applying negative Immobilize, Held, Sleep, etc. A target is considered affected by the mezz if the total is greater than 0. Fractional Magnitudes do exist (Mind Control's Mesmerize for example is Mag 3.5). Bosses have Mag 3 protection (that is, they have -3 Sleep), so because 3.5 + -3.0 = 0.5 the enemy is Slept.

 

Sometimes people wonder how hard it would be to add other status effects to the Containment list. Every damage effect that Controllers have has this formula manually applied to it. If the power deals multiple damage types (e.g. Energy/Smash) often it has the formula multiple times. Since most powers do different damage in PVE vs PVP the formula is applied again. So there are some powers with this formula two or three or more times just in that one power.

 

It's hard to say how hard it would be to make the update but there is some possibility of missing some powers and having them respond differently to Containment than other powers.

 

Containment obviously doesn't care whether you yourself are the person who mezzed the enemy or it was someone else.

 

 

NOT QUITE A BUG: Containment requirement flags are checked the moment you execute a power. So, if enemies are Sleeping, and you hurl projectile and follow that immediately with another damaging power they will often both get Containment damage because technically the flag was true when the power fired. This isn't 100% reliable and probably only relevant to Mind Control players.

 

 

The Damage

Containment damage is similarly manually coded power for power. For example, if a power deals Scale 1 Psi damage outside of Containment it generally deals Scale 1 Psi damage inside Containment. 

 

I don't know if the developers were fully consistent with preserving DoTs versus just delivering immediate damage. Also there are probably at least some cases where the developers were like "Naw screw this" and just had the Containment part of the power deal all of its damage as a single energy type even if the main attack does not.

 

 

Pseudopets

In general most pseudopets don't deal Containment damage. I've lost track of which ones do and do not. Basically for most powers I'd advise asking on the boards or trying on the text server. Not having Containment can radically change a power's respective strength.

 

 

Damage procs

Damage procs are independent of Containment entirely. 

 

 

Damage bonuses and -Resistance

Containment benefits from +Damage and scales pretty much exactly like unContained damage. There are lot of balance takeaways from this that are larger than this post. The short version is that Controllers who can deal heavy damage significantly outdamage lower damage counterparts. That's because Containment takes the higher damage character's damage and then doubles that. There's no archetype with such an enormous difference in performance.

Edited May 12, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Doomguide2005]

10 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

I never understood why Fear (Terrorized/Afraid) was excluded as a Containment trigger.

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Status

Because damage patches maybe such as Ignite perhaps?

[Luminara]

22 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

NOT QUITE A BUG: Containment requirement flags are checked the moment you execute a power. So, if enemies are Sleeping, and you hurl projectile and follow that immediately with another damaging power they will often both get Containment damage because technically the flag was true when the power fired. This isn't 100% reliable and probably only relevant to Mind Control players.

 

Entangling Arrow.  If you initiate an attack immediate after Entangling Arrow (queue the attack while EA is still animating), you won't get the Containment bonus.  Have to wait for the animation to finish.  The target is Immobilized, but apparently not flagged as Immobilized until the animation completes, so the obverse of your example occurs.  It's been a pain in the ass of every controller I've ever played.

[Carnifax]

5 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Because damage patches maybe such as Ignite perhaps?

Afraid shouldn't be a Containment trigger but Terrorised should be.

 

Containment is hand coded per controller damage power though so maybe it's too much tedious work (although possibly it could be scripted).

[Carnifax]

Just now, 5099y_74c05 said:

I don't know if any Controller powers are tagged with "Afraid" only but a few are tagged with both forms of Fear: as an example the entry for Spectral Terror has both listed, last I looked.

 

From the sounds of the HC Wiki article there should only be one version of Fear in the game Terrorized/Fear, Afraid is the legacy item.

Hotfeet, Arctic Air and Spectral Terror off the top of my head. Personally I think "fear" is the legacy / misleading term, Afraid and Terrorised are the terms the game uses. 

[oedipus_tex]

"Fear" is the Name (used by various systems for lookups) and the mezz duration table, kAfraid and kTerrorized are the names of the mezz internally.  I'm sure the power text describes these two affects inconsistently.

 

 

Here's look at the Afraid effect in Arctic Air. You can see it uses the kAfraid attrib, pulls from the Ranged_Fear table, benefits from Strength and enemies can Resist it.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Luminara]

Fear was originally a single effect.  Feared foes just ran away... sometimes bringing back lots and lots and lots of friends.  Players didn't really like that, so Cryptic created Terrorize and replaced Fear with Terrorize in certain powers, but kept Fear in other powers.  Both were blanketed under the same categorization, in the same way cones and AoEs were folded in together, for convenience.

 

If I recall correctly, there's a third effect, Avoid, which functions almost identically to Fear, but isn't a Fear or flagged as such.