Sentinels. Are they underused?

[Wavicle]

I think the changes to Blaster secondaries both in i24 and in HC have made them sufficiently tough that Sentinel damage can be justifiably raised.

[drbuzzard]

Though I feel it necessary to toss out there that if the devs decided that fixing travel pools was more important than sentinels, I wouldn't get my hopes up on it happening any time soon.

[Haijinx]

Isn't there already a 40% hardcap thread?

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I think the changes to Blaster secondaries both in i24 and in HC have made them sufficiently tough that Sentinel damage can be justifiably raised.

 

With the AOE target caps Sents have to live with, seems like a lot of potential ST wiggle room for this.

 

 

[Underfyre]

If Scrapper and Stalkers can coexist doing similar damage, so can Blaster and Sentinels?

[Haijinx]

33 minutes ago, underfyre said:

If Scrapper and Stalkers can coexist doing similar damage, so can Blaster and Sentinels?

 

Hmm.   This is where people mentioning that Sentinels really aren't related to Blasters really clicks.

 

Sentinels are Ranged Scrappers.  Their damage and defense should be compared to Scrappers and adjusted based on the "Range" aspect.  

 

Sentinels aren't anything to do with Blasters.  Blasters Have a Blast Primary (damage) and another (usually) Damage focused secondary.  No one is going to come close to Blasters.  That's why people can do weird crap like making Ranged Only Blasters.  They have so many damage options available, they don't even have to use the damage in their secondaries to be viable.  

[drbuzzard]

54 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Hmm.   This is where people mentioning that Sentinels really aren't related to Blasters really clicks.

 

Sentinels are Ranged Scrappers.  Their damage and defense should be compared to Scrappers and adjusted based on the "Range" aspect.  

 

Sentinels aren't anything to do with Blasters.  Blasters Have a Blast Primary (damage) and another (usually) Damage focused secondary.  No one is going to come close to Blasters.  That's why people can do weird crap like making Ranged Only Blasters.  They have so many damage options available, they don't even have to use the damage in their secondaries to be viable.  

There are a couple ranged only blaster secondaries at that (which are the ones I like).

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, underfyre said:

If Scrapper and Stalkers can coexist doing similar damage, so can Blaster and Sentinels?

Stalkers have like 80-85% of scrapper survivability (basically same values, except lower base HP and different powers in specific cases). Sentinels have 400%+ of blaster survivability.

 

It'd make more sense for Sentinels to be to Blasters what Stalkers are to Tankers.

 

Which, IMHO, was the case before the Tanker buff. So, hey. Since Tankers can get a ginormous effective damage buff without losing any survivability, there's a good precedent for Sentinels to get OP too. Fingers crossed.

[Underfyre]

Yeah, I guess there are a lot of cross comparisons to be made. But does the game really care if Sentinels are doing comparable damage to another damage dealing class?

[BrandX]

I was soloing AVs without Incarnate powers, with my DP/NIN Sent.  Only one I wasn't able to take down was Sentinel.

 

Was it the most damaging of my characters?  No.  Was it fun?  Yes.

 

Was it more survivable than a Blaster with 45% Defense?  Yes. 😛

[drbuzzard]

Just now, underfyre said:

Yeah, I guess there are a lot of cross comparisons to be made. But does the game really care if Sentinels are doing comparable damage to another damage dealing class?

Honestly, even if they come up closer in damage numbers, the lower AOE target numbers give blasters an edge.

 

In my exploration of various other COH servers, I happened upon one (which is no longer running) which had sentinels which had scrapper secondaries (duplicate numbers) and blaster primaries. They just had no inherent. It actually didn't really work badly at all, and was not over the top. Mind you, I like most of the sentinel secondary versions here, but just saying that some more damage wouldn't break everything.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, drbuzzard said:

There are a couple ranged only blaster secondaries at that (which are the ones I like).

 

Hmm that's kind of why I went with usually

 

Tactical Arrow is a great set, but it doesn't really follow the Blaster Secondary Rules.   It does make your Character pretty awesome though.

Devices is definitely Melee Damage though, just on a Delay.  But you could run back to range during the delay I guess.   PFFT.  

 

1 minute ago, nihilii said:

Stalkers have like 80-85% of scrapper survivability (basically same values, except lower base HP and different powers in specific cases). Sentinels have 400%+ of blaster survivability.

 

It'd make more sense for Sentinels to be to Blasters what Stalkers are to Tankers.

 

Which, IMHO, was the case before the Tanker buff. So, hey. Since Tankers can get a ginormous effective damage buff without losing any survivability, there's a good precedent for Sentinels to get OP too. Fingers crossed.

 

I wonder on Stalkers how much the threat level and no taunt auras at all, etc matters for survivability.  Solo Stalkers definitely are around that.  But on teams?  Seems like you never really face the same number of baddies as a scrapper unless you are running on ahead of the group (soloing) 

[drbuzzard]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Hmm that's kind of why I went with usually

 

Tactical Arrow is a great set, but it doesn't really follow the Blaster Secondary Rules.   It does make your Character pretty awesome though.

Devices is definitely Melee Damage though, just on a Delay.  But you could run back to range during the delay I guess.   PFFT.  

 

I consider the toe bombing option of tripmines a relatively recent addition, and rarely use it ( I do like ambushes with it). Really the best attack in devices is taser which is damned good DPA and has a 50' range. Unless you are talking the time bomb, but that's crap.

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

I consider the toe bombing option of tripmines a relatively recent addition, and rarely use it ( I do like ambushes with it). Really the best attack in devices is taser which is damned good DPA and has a 50' range. Unless you are talking the time bomb, but that's crap.

 

Web grenade does damage too now, so that isn't too shabby either, as T1s go.     

 

Time bomb just is too slow for me.  But some people make it work I guess.  

[drbuzzard]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Web grenade does damage too now, so that isn't too shabby either, as T1s go.     

 

Time bomb just is too slow for me.  But some people make it work I guess.  

I use web grenade, but don't think I've slotted it for damage. The DoT is too slow on teams, and I play my blasters only on teams. As you say time bomb is too damned slow to be useful (again, especially on teams).

[DrInfernus]

2 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

Honestly, even if they come up closer in damage numbers, the lower AOE target numbers give blasters an edge.

 

In my exploration of various other COH servers, I happened upon one (which is no longer running) which had sentinels which had scrapper secondaries (duplicate numbers) and blaster primaries. They just had no inherent. It actually didn't really work badly at all, and was not over the top. Mind you, I like most of the sentinel secondary versions here, but just saying that some more damage wouldn't break everything.

Agree with this. As has been mentioned elsewhere on the thread, a blaster will always have a damage edge over Sentinels because of the secondary. 
 

Absolutely nothing wrong with making Blaster and Sentinel primary damage the same and then giving the player the choice:

 

Want more damage? Blaster

Want more survivability? Sentinel

[Underfyre]

3 minutes ago, DrInfernus said:

Want more damage? Blaster

Want more survivability? Sentinel

 

How about we aim more for a

"Want ranged damage with the option to do a little more at a higher risk? Blaster"

"Want similar ranged damage at little risk? Sentinel"

[DrInfernus]

5 minutes ago, underfyre said:

 

How about we aim more for a

"Want ranged damage with the option to do a little more at a higher risk? Blaster"

"Want similar ranged damage at little risk? Sentinel"

Yeah, think that’s the sweet spot personally. 

[Haijinx]

5 minutes ago, underfyre said:

 

How about we aim more for a

"Want ranged damage with the option to do a little more at a higher risk? Blaster"

"Want similar ranged damage at little risk? Sentinel"

 

Blasters are squishies 

Sentinels aren't 

 

You can't have them be the same.  On SO's and while leveling the difference is stark.  Blasters die pretty easy compared to a Sent.  

Its only in the power creep crazy IO incarnate world where Blasters are so far ahead.  

 

So that has to be balanced around too.  

 

For example.  A Sent can stand in melee on teams with a KIN and take full advantage of all the damage buffs, the leveling Blaster may not be able to.  

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Blasters are squishies 

Sentinels aren't 

 

You can't have them be the same.  On SO's and while leveling the difference is stark.  Blasters die pretty easy compared to a Sent.  

Its only in the power creep crazy IO incarnate world where Blasters are so far ahead.  

 

So that has to be balanced around too.  

 

For example.  A Sent can stand in melee on teams with a KIN and take full advantage of all the damage buffs, the leveling Blaster may not be able to.  

While that’s true, it’s clear to me at this point the difference isn’t enough to justify the disparity. On a team with a Kin and a FF the Blaster is safe in Melee.

[Haijinx]

11 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

While that’s true, it’s clear to me at this point the difference isn’t enough to justify the disparity. On a team with a Kin and a FF the Blaster is safe in Melee.

 

I don't think Sentinels do enough damage now, I agree with that.

 

May comment was with just making Blasters and Sents the same except for secondaries.  Same Blast Sets, Same AOE target caps and so forth.  

 

I mean.  You could do that.  But you would probably need to nerf the Sent's secondaries down some. 

[DrInfernus]

9 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

I don't think Sentinels do enough damage now, I agree with that.

 

May comment was with just making Blasters and Sents the same except for secondaries.  Same Blast Sets, Same AOE target caps and so forth.  

 

I mean.  You could do that.  But you would probably need to nerf the Sent's secondaries down some. 

Why though? 
 

I mean Sentinels would be trading something compared to blasters (extra damage, melee attacks) for the buff to their primaries. 
 

I genuinely don’t know what people think that Sentinels have that is SO unbelievably amazing that they have to have massive penalties for anything good. Scrappers get top level damage AND survivability and no one thinks their secondary should be nerfed. Why Sentinels? What am I missing? 

Edited May 14, 2021 by DrInfernus

[Wavicle]

I say leave the range and target caps where they are, but increase the damage. Make the inherent better.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, DrInfernus said:

Why though? 
 

I mean Sentinels would be trading someone (extra damage, melee attacks) for the buff to their primaries. 
 

I genuinely don’t know what people think that Sentinels have that is SO unbelievably amazing that they have to have massive penalties for anything good. Scrappers get top level damage AND survivability and no one thinks their secondary should be needed. Why Sentinels? What am I missing? 

 

 

You can only use so many attacks though.  Blasters tend to have too many available.   That's where scrappers builds tend to be designed around.   

 

If you have scrapper level survival, you are going to end up with Scrapper level damage, adjusted for range.  Not that Range matters a lot as far as doing damage usually.  Some opportunity based stuff.  

 

But I don't think Sentinels are there yet, are they?

 

This is just my rough feel on where you could take it though.  I don't see Capt PH saying Sents can do equal damage to a Ranged (primary attacks) only Blaster both ST and AOE.

 

[DrInfernus]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

 

You can only use so many attacks though.  Blasters tend to have too many available.   That's where scrappers builds tend to be designed around.   

 

If you have scrapper level survival, you are going to end up with Scrapper level damage, adjusted for range.  Not that Range matters a lot as far as doing damage usually.  Some opportunity based stuff.  

 

But I don't think Sentinels are there yet, are they?

 

This is just my rough feel on where you could take it though.  I don't see Capt PH saying Sents can do equal damage to a Ranged (primary attacks) only Blaster both ST and AOE.

 

But looking at the power balance, it’s all off. 

 

IF we accept the idea that Sentinels were designed (badly) to be a damage dealing AT or that they should be, I don’t understand the obsession with penalising them so much. 
 

Blaster - Bigger base damage, range, extra damage in secondary, build up and... survivability penalty
 

Scrapper - Bigger base damage, extra damage from crits, build up, strong survivability and... range penalty 

 

Sentinel - strong survivability and... damage penalty, range penalty, AoE penalty, no build up

 

So all I’m really asking is what does a Sentinel have that justifies more penalties that strengths?