Empathy: A New Vision for a Classic Powerset

[kikyoku]

8 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

Moreover, many people are simply bad at playing an empath. Speed run a tricky TF alongside a skilled PvP empath and you’ll have a great and rewarding time

I was thinking about this yesterday. Empathy has a much lower skill floor than other sets (in general).

 

Healing is effectively a safety net, you can undo damage dealt when other defensive mechanisms fail. But that means that there is no backup after it if you don't handle it correctly.

 

If you look at, say, thermal, you have +resist on top to reduce damage taken, then defensive debuffs and offensive buffs to speed the encounter up, and then if all else fails, you can heal to make up for weaknesses or mistakes.

 

Empathy has no real backup plan, and requires the user to utilize the set consistently in order to really work.

 

There's value to a set like that, because it provides a challenge to the player. I don't have the numbers for this, but there are two potential flaws of that plan.

 

1. The player may give up before improving enough to feel competent, feeling like empathy is weak compared to other sets that they are competent with at the start.
2. The skill ceiling may be low (again, I have no idea how to measure this), causing experienced players to be frustrated that they  aren't reaping the benefits of their practice.

I suspect both of these factors are in play in this discussion, which is why some people are saying it's more powerful than you think, and others saying it is weak in general.

[xl8]

Personally, my simple solution for empathy (and all buff powersets) is make them self-castable.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, xl8 said:

Personally, my simple solution for empathy (and all buff powersets) is make them self-castable.

An empathy with power boosted fortitude, clear mind, and perma adrenaline boost would then be easily as tough as a tanker if not tougher so... that’s a hard no.

[oedipus_tex]

The ability to self cast some team buff powers I think would do a lot for certain sets. There are a couple of ways to accomplish this, and being able to self cast doesn't necessarily mean getting the full benefits of the power or that you could do it with every power.

 

For example I think Force Field being able to self cast half-strength, unboostable Deflection Shields is fine. Empathy self casting an unboosted, half strength Fortitude, or getting those effects when they self cast another power like one of their auras, is also fine. We do have to be a bit careful not to step all over Sentinel's toes, but most of the sets that would truly benefit from this run somewhat behind sets that do plenty for themselves already.

 

Cold Domination with self-cast shields of any strength does give me some pause. Although according to the powerset popularity charts Cold Domination is less powerful than Force Field. ;)

Edited June 11, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[xl8]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

An empathy with power boosted fortitude, clear mind, and perma adrenaline boost would then be easily as tough as a tanker if not tougher so... that’s a hard no.

Well that's an exaggeration, but yes, if you don't adjust accordingly some would see it as OP. You're still at the bottom end of offense, it just means you're not squishy—which I think should be the case for "defenders". These issues can be corrected with set recharge times and/or as oedipus_tex suggested, you lower the self cast effect. The idea though that hero/villains can cast powers on others but not on themselves has never really sat well with me.

[Milk Sheik]

I've got emp def for my badging main (vet level 112 or so) and while I would not turn down an empathy buff, I'd like to stick up for emping as a power set at 50+. I find myself being useful -- maybe not as useful as other power sets, but still appreciated by many toons in a number of situations.

 

1) Hamidon doesn't care how much +def you have, and there's always some scrapperlocked toon who didn't eat their EoE regularly.

2) A lot of higher-end AVs (LR in MLTF or RV, for example, or the Big Bad in I-trials) have pretty high +to-hit that turns into a nasty surprise for toons relying on the def cap.

3) In a pick-up group, there's often the sidekicked brute/tank who isn't all kitted out, can't help but pull aggro due to punchvoke, and if you're running +4/x8, they're at +5. Heal Other is great for keeping them standing.

4) On MSRs, the melee toons rushing out to do their thing often leave the heal spam in the center of the bowl -- a flying emp with stealth and Heal Other is a big plus.

 

I also have a nature def at vet level 15 or so, and while I find nature's combos of buffs and debuffs very utilitarian against monsters & AVs (especially firing Overgrowth for a league), I have to resort to Clarion to free status effects and its non-targeted cone heal absolutely sucks if you're trying to target a toon zipping around with their travel power. Heal Other? Click on the name and click on the power. It's like night and day.

 

Again, this is not to discount all the points made in the thread so far -- absorb, end boosts, duration increases, a change to Absorb Pain, all fair -- this is just me throwing my two cents in.

 

 

[LeoTheCat]

14 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

Leo - I understand your logic here, though changes are generally made to introduce balance to the game and promote underperforming or underpowered sets to increase the variety of ATs/powersets played

 

As empathy is by far the most played set, it’s unlikely to be a candidate for positive adjustment

Why? Serious question. Who set "variety" as a goal, when, and what, specifically, is the metric by which we measure success? Why is "variety" inherently good? Should certain powersets underperform in order to have a "variety" of gameplay experience? This entire line of argument doesn't make sense.

 

14 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

Moreover, many people are simply bad at playing an empath. Speed run a tricky TF alongside a skilled PvP empath and you’ll have a great and rewarding time

Same question. I hear this asserted quite often, and I even remember this being a reputation for the powerset in live. But it's over a decade later. Most of our players have multiple alts that they've taken all the way to 50. I would surmise (but I don't have the data to prove it), that we have more players being welcomed back then arriving here for the first time. 

 

So is it your position that:

• a) Otherwise experienced players are bad at playing Empath (in which case, are you implying that they are bad at all of their sets, or uniquely Empathy, and why); or
• b) New players disproportionately play Empathy, to the extent that the powerset should not be improved in order to ensure that new players... receive a lackluster experience on their first character?
• c) The dozens of enfranchised players on this thread and the others linked in the first post are bad players?

Either way, I don't see this as a justification for not improving the powerset, even if any of those facts were true.

 

6 minutes ago, Milk Sheik said:

I've got emp def for my badging main (vet level 112 or so) and while I would not turn down an empathy buff, I'd like to stick up for emping as a power set at 50+. I find myself being useful -- maybe not as useful as other power sets, but still appreciated by many toons in a number of situations.

I love my Empath too, which is why I made this thread. We can definitely still be useful, but I want us to be more useful. Specifically, I want Empathy to be at parity with the top sets (numerically and in terms of gameplay) and have a unique mechanic that makes it feel different. I still believe in the powerset, and you're definitely not alone :D

 

54 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Cold Domination with self-cast shields of any strength does give me some pause. Although according to the powerset popularity charts Cold Domination is less powerful than Force Field. ;)

 

[Doomguide2005]

21 hours ago, arcane said:

An empathy with power boosted fortitude, clear mind, and perma adrenaline boost would then be easily as tough as a tanker if not tougher so... that’s a hard no.

     This ^

     Anyone reading or following Empathy threads has probably figured out I rather like Empathy as a set.  But this is straight up a really overpowered idea assuming no significant changes are made to the set or those powers.  My builds would be at or extremely close to the softcap, IH levels of regeneration nearly 24-7, downtime on the Auras under 20 seconds (those 20 seconds or so being when I wouldn't be at IH levels of regen), global recharge around 300%, etc.  I'm going to use Dreadful Wail, Blackstar, or other nuke about every 35 to 40 secs, etc..  Yes that's with set IOs but no Incarnate abilities while solo.. Scarier is how much most of that will not change all that much under an SO only build.  Defense will still be pushing 32, I'd still have far more uptime at IH levels of regen than downtime.  Gets a little dicey but still perma Hasten and perma AB ... this is what your 'buff buddy' is normally doing for you on a GM team.  Now you just don't need them you're doing it yourself.  So Tanker tough probably not but yeesh extremely tough yes.

[arcane]

35 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     This ^

     Anyone reading or following Empathy threads has probably figured out I rather like Empathy as a set.  But this is straight up a really overpowered idea assuming no significant changes are made to the set or those powers.  My builds would be at or extremely close to the softcap, IH levels of regeneration nearly 24-7, downtime on the Auras under 20 seconds (those 20 seconds or so being when I wouldn't be at IH levels of regen), global recharge around 300%, etc.  I'm going to use Dreadful Wail, Blackstar, or other nuke about every 35 to 40 secs, etc..  Yes that's with set IOs but no Incarnate abilities while solo.. Scarier is how much most of that will not change all that much under an SO only build.  Defense will still be pushing 32, I'd still have far more uptime at IH levels of regen than downtime.  Gets a little dicey but still perma Hasten and perma AB ... this is what your 'buff buddy' is normally doing for you on a GM team.  Now you just don't need them you're doing it yourself.  So Tanker tough probably not but yeesh extremely tough yes.

Yeah, I definitely don’t understand how

 

- *easily* capped defenses (all types),
- easily permanent instant healing, 

- broad status protection, stackable to be superior to tanker protections,

- permanent +100% recharge (likely plus hasten), 

- and more

 

on a defender all at the same time with few set bonuses needed to get there can sound like a good idea to anyone. But then, some people’s brains really don’t put much stock in this concept of balance.

 

So, yes, obviously the proposition of letting ally buffs affect self is an absolute non-starter without severe nerfs to the values of said ally buffs. Personally I don’t think it sounds appealing.

 

(Yes I’m aware that I only described something a little stronger than Power Boosted Time Manipulation, but that set is already at the very far end of what should be acceptable, and the additional things this would allow like the insane regeneration.. would be so broken that it hurts I have to explain this)

Edited June 12, 2021 by arcane

[Doomguide2005]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

Yeah, I definitely don’t understand how

     Clearly the self buff portion would have to be significantly different from the ally buff mechanics of power.  Particularly for AB.

     I totally forgot absurd amounts of endurance +recovery, maybe an entire spawn of Sappers would do something but that's like +1200% recovery without trying in a world with toggle supression and crashless nukes.  Honestly I think that's a small part of Empathy's issues.  All the often QoL, often small changes to enable characters in solo more easily, indirectly reducing the need for some of the buffs Empathy and other buffers could provide.

 

 

[LeoTheCat]

The idea of self-casting should definitely be on the table for discussion as part of the solution, subject to Doomguide's caveat:

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     Clearly the self buff portion would have to be significantly different from the ally buff mechanics of power.  Particularly for AB. 

But I think that the set needs significantly more than (and other than) self-buffing. We should see if it would be possible to make changes in-set before modifying the self-targeting code.

 

2 hours ago, arcane said:

(Yes I’m aware that I only described something a little stronger than Power Boosted Time Manipulation, but that set is already at the very far end of what should be acceptable, and the additional things this would allow like the insane regeneration.. would be so broken that it hurts I have to explain this)

Arcane, it seems as though you are beginning to see where many of us are coming from in terms of powerset parity. Now take the same logic that you've applied to the self-buffing discussion and apply it to the rest of the powers. I would be thrilled if Empathy had comparable performance to Time. And before you say it: no, people love Time and it should not be nerfed into the ground.