Its hard to talk about Vigilence.

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

they get solo is completely asinine

 

What the hell is wrong with soloing? I actually enjoy soloing my time/fire defender for hours on end.

[A Cat]

8 hours ago, kelika2 said:

At first, I did not want to do this but then I remembered how many of my old characters from live were remade from Scrappers to Brutes/stalkers when Homecoming hit

Then I remembered how many of my old trollers are now Doms

Then I remembered how many of my old x into y

So I remade my kin/sonic into a sonic/kin, emp/water into water/emp, thermal/fire into fire/thermal, etc and so on.

 

Blaster is the last remaining hero AT worth a fuck.

 

I'd say the hero melee AT's are better than the red side counterparts slightly. Not knowledgeable enough about other stuff to say. But scrappers are survivable enough but do more damage than stalkers or brutes outside of a farm. Tanks can hit survivability goals with no effort leaving room for building for offense, and have better AoE radii, which I think is much better for actual play. They're all pretty close though. 

[Marbing]

7 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

What the hell is wrong with soloing? I actually enjoy soloing my time/fire defender for hours on end.

Nothing is wrong with soloing. Just think Defenders don’t need dmg buff when solo is all.

 

Edit: Was half asleep when I responded. Now that I am awake I am curious your intent behind this response. I never said I don’t think Defenders should be allowed to solo or that I don’t like soloing in general. All I said was the damage buff Defenders get when they are solo is asinine. Because it is. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

What this says to me, is you are very focused on killspeed, and your ability to directly contribute to that by big damage numbers.

Its also the safest option in all situations.  At level 30+ people know how to take care of themselves with IOs and proper builds and such leaving stuff like CC, healing and most buffs kinda meh.

My char select screen is (now) mostly blaster/corr/brute/mastermind.  Gimmick characters are in the last page like a fire/ tank during posi/synapes week or my pistol/bio sent whenever the urge for toxic damage arises

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

Nothing is wrong with soloing. Just think Defenders don’t need dmg buff when solo is all.

 

Edit: Was half asleep when I responded. Now that I am awake I am curious your intent behind this response. I never said I don’t think Defenders should be allowed to solo or that I don’t like soloing in general. All I said was the damage buff Defenders get when they are solo is asinine. Because it is. 

 

I would enjoy soloing my defenders less without it so I disagree.

[Marbing]

22 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I would enjoy soloing my defenders less without it so I disagree.

Of course you would. Should have rolled a Corruptor then, if you like DPS support.

 

Look, I know they will never make the change because it would piss people off. I am just pointing out the stupidity of “Defenders can encroach on Corruptor role when solo but not vice versa”.

Edited February 9, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

Of course you would. Should have rolled a Corruptor then, if you like DPS support.

 

Look, I know they will never make the change because it would piss people off. I am just pointing out the stupidity of “Defenders can encroach on Corruptor role when solo but not vice versa”.

 

I have corruptors as well. Defs and Cors have always stepped on each others' roles. Doesn't change the fact that 8 corruptors are still considerably faster than 8 defenders and a solo corruptor is still faster than a solo defender in most cases. So I'll also disagree with your assessment of "not vice versa."

 

Before it was added, defenders lagged too far behind corruptors solo, and quite frankly It was a far more elegant "fix" than the hamfisted buffs tanks recently received.

[Marbing]

19 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I have corruptors as well. Defs and Cors have always stepped on each others' roles. Doesn't change the fact that 8 corruptors are still considerably faster than 8 defenders and a solo corruptor is still faster than a solo defender in most cases. So I'll also disagree with your assessment of "not vice versa."

 

Before it was added, defenders lagged too far behind corruptors solo, and quite frankly It was a far more elegant "fix" than the hamfisted buffs tanks recently received.

I agree with you on the tank fix. 
 

I’ve played both since live and every iteration of each. Solo a Corruptor certainly doesn’t easily have better clear times than a defender “in most cases” unless your playing a Kin or popping reds to keep you at cap. The damage boost that defenders get solo puts them over a Corruptors base damage. Scourge doesn’t  kick in till the mob is almost dead. This means the Corruptor usually is only able to outpace a defender against hard targets and only toward the end of that fight. Even then it’s not as clear cut as it should be. 
 

Defenders don’t need a damage buff solo. They were fine before it.

 

EDIT: We have sparred on this before and neither of our opinions have changed so let’s just agree to disagree.

Edited February 9, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[AgentForest]

On 10/16/2021 at 9:02 PM, Dark Current said:

The real problem with Vigilance is... everything.

 

1) My damage goes down if I team.

2) I don't get endurance discount if I do my job.

 

Genius design for a team-centric protector AT.

 

This is actually the real issue with Vigilance.

Personally, I don't think it ever should have granted a damage boost when solo that decreases when you add teammates.  This encourages people to not want to team with the most team-centric AT.  Or makes them feel "weak" if they do team.  It sets the bar needlessly high for what to expect of their damage output.

As for the endurance discount, this bothered me too.  If you are good at preventing damage in the first place, or heal people as soon as damage shows up (smart gameplay), then you rarely benefit from this effect at all.  Personally, I think Defenders should gain an endurance discount whenever allies are attacked (hit or miss) sorta like how Fury is calculated for Brutes.  It shouldn't be based on where anyone's health currently IS, but rather on enemy aggression.  This would keep healing someone from reducing your discount.

But even then, it was never an exciting passive.  I wouldn't even know how to fix it, but making Defender base damage just higher than Corruptors isn't the solution.  Perhaps add in a weak buff to the strength of buffs, debuffs, and heals based on the endurance discount criteria.  Defenders already have the strongest buffs, debuffs, and heals in the game, but if as allies took damage, your ability to protect them or hinder foes improved, that would make up for any loss in damage.  Radiation Blasts would lower defense more, forcefields would get stronger, heals would get stronger, etc.  Just make those factors and the endurance discount all scale with a fury-bar sort of mechanic based on allies getting hurt.  Maybe make it drop off faster though so it isn't just permanently maxed out.  Like, during the alpha strike, sure, it'll get pretty full, but as the fight wears on, it drops back down to more reasonable levels.  This lets you really shine at the times people need a support the most.

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, AgentForest said:

 

This is actually the real issue with Vigilance.

 

I think its been established that just play corruptors at this point in this 7 or 19 month old thread i dunno anymore

corruptors have a higher base damage, top that off with scourge

now factor in the -25% effectiveness in debuffs/buffs.  if you see someone nut hard in a group over a 25% dmg buff siphon power over a 20% siphon power it will be a world first

 

I been rerolling defenders in the past 4 or 22 months since i made this thread, you should start as well

[Rudra]

On 2/8/2022 at 9:21 PM, A Cat said:

I'd say the hero melee AT's are better than the red side counterparts slightly. Not knowledgeable enough about other stuff to say. But scrappers are survivable enough but do more damage than stalkers or brutes outside of a farm. Tanks can hit survivability goals with no effort leaving room for building for offense, and have better AoE radii, which I think is much better for actual play. They're all pretty close though. 

It feels like when any mods are made, red side ATs are nerfed and blue side ATs are buffed. Tankers got their max resists faster than brutes, but brutes out damaged them. Tankers cried foul, so now Tankers still have better start resists, but their damage output is better. I was talking to a tanker player about how tankers had the better taunt ability, they auto-taunt up to 10, compared to brutes, and the response was "Good. I want the brutes off my porch. They shouldn't even exist."

[AgentForest]

On 2/23/2022 at 5:34 PM, kelika2 said:

I think its been established that just play corruptors at this point...

...I been rerolling defenders in the past 4 or 22 months since i made this thread, you should start as well

You misunderstood my comment.  I already am.  And that's the problem with the Defender passive.

I play FAR more Corruptors than Defenders.  Corruptor is one of my all-time favorite classes.

The rest of my comment elaborated on why I almost never bother with Defenders.  Their entire passive is counter to their entire purpose.  A full support class shouldn't be encouraged to solo by the mechanics of one part of their passive, while at the same time only given an endurance discount scaling with how bad a job they're doing.  If you're keeping your team alive, you won't see much endurance discount, and if you don't want to team, why are you a Defender?

I was advocating for completely revamping the Defender passive so that people take the role for the right reasons, and get rewarded for it, rather than so people can solo, or get endurance discounts for not doing their job.  Until Defender Vigilance is fixed, I probably won't play very many because it just clashes with the power fantasy.

[Marbing]

6 minutes ago, AgentForest said:

You misunderstood my comment.  I already am.  And that's the problem with the Defender passive.

I play FAR more Corruptors than Defenders.  Corruptor is one of my all-time favorite classes.

The rest of my comment elaborated on why I almost never bother with Defenders.  Their entire passive is counter to their entire purpose.  A full support class shouldn't be encouraged to solo by the mechanics of one part of their passive, while at the same time only given an endurance discount scaling with how bad a job they're doing.  If you're keeping your team alive, you won't see much endurance discount, and if you don't want to team, why are you a Defender?

I was advocating for completely revamping the Defender passive so that people take the role for the right reasons, and get rewarded for it, rather than so people can solo, or get endurance discounts for not doing their job.  Until Defender Vigilance is fixed, I probably won't play very many because it just clashes with the power fantasy.

I agree. Their passive should encourage team play since they are the premier buff/debuff team support class. Something that leans into this strength would make more sense, and be more useful. But, it certainly shouldn’t come with a damage buff.

[TheZag]

Your damage doesnt go down when you team,  it goes up when you solo.  Vigilance may be in a strange place while teaming since endurance is thrown around like nothing while in a group.  But when it was first added and everyone didnt have maxed out builds,  it was very useful.  Maybe vigilance could use a look for the end reduction side of things,  but your damage returning to its intended values while on a team isnt really a good enough reason to convince me that the damage side of vigilance needs any changes.

[AgentForest]

35 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Your damage doesnt go down when you team,  it goes up when you solo.

 

Except that functionally it's a damage drop.

The default, when I log into the game, is that my character will be alone.  You don't load in already on a team.  Your character's stat sheet, without buffs or debuffs from others, will show a Defender at a significant damage boost over a Corruptor when alone.  The moment you team, this shifts, as the Defender begins losing that "buff".

It's sorta like if when a Defender woke up in the morning, they had a nice big breakfast waiting for them.  A veritable banquet of their favorite things.  The Corruptor wakes up to a moderately sized but pleasant breakfast.  But if the Defender invites anyone over to eat with them, the chef just starts taking food off their plate until they have a ton less than everyone else.  Meanwhile the Corruptor's breakfast is untouched while they eat with friends.  That would really encourage the Defender to eat alone.

[Naraka]

8 minutes ago, AgentForest said:

 

Except that functionally it's a damage drop.
 

Not functionally. Perceptually.

[Apparition]

IMO, Defenders should have never gotten the extra damage while solo, and should have instead gotten a permanent endurance discount... something like 10%.  Or extra endurance.

[AgentForest]

1 minute ago, Naraka said:

Not functionally. Perceptually.

 

No, functionally.  As in, your damage is X normally, but the moment you team, your damage is X - Y, with Y being the Vigilance value.

You could literally rewrite the mechanic to be that your base damage scaling is higher to match the current Vigilance solo buff, then apply a damage debuff to the Defender for each ally that joins their team until their damage is at the current Defender damage scaling, and it would be functionally identical to the current mechanic.

[AgentForest]

Ever since Vigilance was implemented, I've felt more and more compelled to play Corruptors.  I don't mind playing them, but Defenders need SOMETHING else to really make them feel like the support specialist of the game.  The current mechanic just doesn't reward being the ultimate team support.

[Naraka]

13 minutes ago, AgentForest said:

 

No, functionally.  As in, your damage is X normally, but the moment you team, your damage is X - Y, with Y being the Vigilance value.

You could literally rewrite the mechanic to be that your base damage scaling is higher to match the current Vigilance solo buff, then apply a damage debuff to the Defender for each ally that joins their team until their damage is at the current Defender damage scaling, and it would be functionally identical to the current mechanic.

Unfortunately, you're incorrect. For it to be a functional damage drop, it would apply -dmg when teamed. Just because Build Up has a 10sec duration of +dmg does not make it a functional damage drop outside of those 10sec.

[Naraka]

23 minutes ago, Apparition said:

IMO, Defenders should have never gotten the extra damage while solo, and should have instead gotten a permanent endurance discount... something like 10%.  Or extra endurance.

It was interesting when they were trying changes for Tanker, one of which was increasing their base Endurance by, I think, 15 points. I think that would be a nice and unique QoL change for Defender that not only effectively reduces endurance costs to a degree but also increases the effects of +recovery.

[AgentForest]

18 minutes ago, Naraka said:

For it to be a functional damage drop, it would apply -dmg when teamed.

 

No, that's not what "functionally" means.  That's what "literally" means.  Functionally means that it could be substituted with the alternative, hidden behind the code of the game, and nobody would notice a difference.  It functions as though it's a damage debuff.  It's not a literal -Damage effect.  It's a FUNCTIONAL -Damage effect.

[Naraka]

Just now, AgentForest said:

 

No, that's not what "functionally" means.  That's what "literally" means.  Functionally means that it could be substituted with the alternative, hidden behind the code of the game, and nobody would notice a difference.  It functions as though it's a damage debuff.  It's not a literal -Damage effect.  It's a FUNCTIONAL -Damage effect.

The word you're looking for is "effectively", not functionally.

[AgentForest]

17 minutes ago, Naraka said:

The word you're looking for is "effectively", not functionally.

 

Those are synonyms.  🙂  For something to serve the same functional purpose or effect as something else is for them to be functionally or effectively the same.  Not literally the same, but providing the same function or effect.

[TheZag]

The fact that an archtype over performs while solo isnt a reason to get a buff while teaming.  If you are in the character creation screen and look at a defender attack that does 100 damage and then look at that same attack when on a team it will still be 100 damage.  You 'got what you paid for' in terms of defender damage.  Because they give you 30% extra for free sometimes doesnt mean you get 30% extra all the time or the 51% from the suggestion either for that matter.

 

But im fairly certain that the current devs wont be giving defenders 2/3 of build up damage at all times while teaming so all of this is just for the sake of discussion.