More Day Jobs for Praetoria

[Nerva]

20 minutes ago, AboveTheChemist said:

So there is some precedent (including one day job badge) for handling badges differently for Praetorians and Primals.

 

Okay, I knew that Praetorians started with certain badges, but I wasn't aware that their Praetorian status persisted once they took on a Primal alignment.

 

That, at least, solves some of the problems, since a Praetorian retains that flag throughout their character's life.  We know that a Praetorian character, even one converted to the Primal alignments, will continue to earn the Praetorian version of any badge that has a Praetorian-specific version.  It also opens up the possibility of cloning badges with different descriptions or even names for the 'same' thing.  So there could be a Praetorian copy of the Commuter badge with the description changed, or it could be given a whole new name.

 

With this knowledge, so long as we stick to direct equivalents, directly porting Day Job badges to Praetoria would be easy.  There's still the question of where to put the locations for them, of course.  Indirect equivalents though (like the Commuter <-> Pilot pair) would still need some hammering out; since Praetorians can't stop being Praetorians, and non-Praetorians can't become Praetorians.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Nerva said:

Again, it's a matter of determining whether an appropriate location already exists.  Looking at the badge description closer, I could see getting Commuter at the CTA, since you just have to travel the rail system rather than help operate it.  But I couldn't see Law Enforcer, because the Praetoria Police Department absolutely does not want you in their day-to-day business. 

 

You're putting out a lot of words, but not thinking it through.

 

1. Yes, it's irrelevant. This is a mechanics or rewards argument, the lore is at best a bit of icing on top. The locations exist. This is about parity. Not introducing anything that doesn't already exist elsewhere.

 

2. With your example and all the words typed about lore? You're forgetting something. The badges can say *whatever they want.* The PPD doesn't want you in their day to day business? Why would powers division - or the Resistance - care? Badge text: "The PPD may not like you being there, but you'll remind them of their place." Boom. Look, lore that fits!

 

3. Yes, (most) characters that start in Praetoria change alingment. And characters that start hero or villain can *also* change alignment. There's no hand-wringing there. (And we don't know where future development may lead, so... )

 

4. The cottage rule has nothing to do with this. It has to do with keeping the primary purpose of a power the same (and, really, it's mostly a guideline.) IOW,  Knockout Blow, for instance, is a ST melee attack with knockup. They may change the numbers, alter, add or remove secondary effects... but not turn it into an AOE heal. It's about as relevant to this discussion as cottage cheese.

[Frozen Burn]

1 hour ago, Nerva said:

 

Again, it's a matter of determining whether an appropriate location already exists.  Looking at the badge description closer, I could see getting Commuter at the CTA, since you just have to travel the rail system rather than help operate it.  But I couldn't see Law Enforcer, because the Praetoria Police Department absolutely does not want you in their day-to-day business. 

 

Sure, Provost Marchand wants Powers Division and PPD to work together more, and there's cops that appreciate it when you step in to rescue them, but Praetor White absolutely does not care if you bust their heads so long as you don't embarass the Division (he says as much in his story arc), and just walking by most officers on the street is liable to get them either calling you a freak, threatening you, or feeling threatened enough by you to demand that you back off.  In even the most accepting members of the PPD, they see you as having your job, and them as having theirs.  You aren't welcome to play cop at their precinct.

 

1) yes, appropriate locations do exist - that's what this thread is all about.  

2) you are getting too far into minutia on badge descriptions and it's faulty logic because the badge descriptions change as you switch alignments.  And in cases where it doesn't -- the Devs can reword or make it so it does.  

3) Again, not ALL the PPD want you dead or hate you because you're Powers Division.  Also, even though Primal PPD is more friendly towards heroes, they still do not want you in their way.  There are late game missions where you do fight them. 

 

There is no reason lore-wise to not be able to have a Day-Job in the Praetorian police stations.  You apparently disagree and that is your right.  But again, we can spend years arguing over lore.  And at the end of the day, it's all up to the Devs to decide what that lore is.  

 

1 hour ago, Nerva said:

And honestly, I think you and Frozen Burn feel the same way, even if you don't realize it.  

 

I realize it and I think @Greycat does too.  😄  

 

1 hour ago, Nerva said:

Step back and ask yourself, "why is it okay that villains have day jobs that are unique and not available to heroes?"  Well that's because heroes have mechanical equivalents with different names and descriptions, earned in different locations, all for lore reasons.

 

All of the 'unique' villain day job badges have a mechanically equivalent version heroside and vice versa.  Smuggler <-> Shop Keeper; Demagogue <-> City Official; Arachnos Agent <-> Law Enforcer; Arachnos Official <-> Dimensional Explorer; Crey Employee <-> Intern; Pilot <-> Commuter.  The only differences between these pairs is where they're earned, and that's largely because of lore reasons - such as their names and badge descriptions.

They could've totally had the day job for the Arachnos Fliers be Commuter instead of Pilot.  Mechanically, the fliers are the closest thing to the trams in Paragon, and both Commuter and Pilot have the same rewards to begin with.  But they went the extra step and separated them into two badges with different descriptions that don't even mutually cross-award one another when you switch alignments.  Why?  Because it wouldn't make sense to award a badge for riding around the trams in paragon for flying an Arachnos VTOL for Lord Recluse.  There's no mechanical reason; only lore and storytelling.

Then there's Day Job badges that are earned in the same places on both sides, are earnable by both sides, have the same rewards, but have different names and descriptions.  Those are Banker <-> Thief; Caregiver <-> Pain Specialist; Day Trader <-> Marketeer; Patroller <-> Criminal.  Architect; Fashion Designer; and Professor.  And finally there's the badges that are awarded to both sides irrespective of alignment, most of which are associated with cross-alignment locations: Architect, Chronologist, Cimeroran, Clubber, Cold Hand of Death, Duelist, D.U.S.T. Ranger, Fashion Designer, Midnighter, Monitor Duty, Mortician, Predator, Professor, Psychologist, Scavenger, Survivalist, and Vanguard Recruit,

 

Yes, Villains have "mechanical" equivalents to Hero badges, but some of those "unique" villain-only badges cannot be earned by just switching alignments.  Heroes still need to switch an alignment to earn the Crey Employee badge, Arachnos Official, Smuggler, and etc.  So there is no reason that same thing can't happen for Praetoria.  HOWEVER, I'm not proposing any like that... I just think normal locations, like Studio 55, the trains, and such should award appropriate Day Jobs.

 

1 hour ago, Nerva said:

So for Day Job badges that don't make sense within lore for Praetorians, come up with Praetorian equivalents.

• Fashion Designer is supposed to exist in Praetoria, judging from the fact that the Day Job Recruiter NPC mentions it, but there's no areas properly flagged for it.  Probably because the only dedicated tailor in Praetoria, Rita Mayfair, stands outside instead of being indoors.
• I'll agree that they should have an equivalent of Commuter at the CTA stations, but possibly renamed and with a description that doesn't reference Paragon City.
• Similarly, an equivalent of Clubber could be given at Studio 55 and the Loyalist Lounge, with the mention of Pocket D removed from the description.  Though this would make goldside the only side that gets Clubber outside of Pocket D.  Also it's worth mentioning that there's a portal to Pocket D within Studio 55 (it's under the stairs leading to the upstairs bar).
• Setting aside the friction between PPD and Powers Division, Law Enforcer has a description that specifically mentions the Paragon Police Department.  You could change the description for Praetorians, or have an equivalent; perhaps "IDF Reservist" located at the IDF base in Neutropolis.
• City Official might make sense placed at the Cole Tower in Nova Praetoria, but its description specifically mentions Paragon City, so you could make the badge "Bureaucrat" and change its description for Praetorians.
• Dimensional Explorer and Arachnos Official both don't fit for Praetorians who haven't left Praetoria, but there are Construction Sites in Neutropolis - the Praetorian equivalent badge could be "Foreman" with the description noting that flight packs are given to Foremen responsible for managing the Clockwork at these construction sites to prevent accidents.  Alternatively, @Frozen Burn's "Reactor Worker" could be made an equivalent of this.
• @Frozen Burn, your "Reporter" idea, located at TPN, would make a good equivalent for the Hero Intern and Villain Crey Employee badges.

There's a reason I bring up the level range.

Every Praetorian character will have to be converted to a Primal Earth alignment sooner or later.

 

Which begs the question as to what happens with all of the equivalent badges up above, if they're implemented.  Do they convert over to their Primal alignment equivalents?  Are they renamed to reflect Primal alignments, like Hero and villain Day Job badges do when you switch?  Since you can't convert to a Praetorian alignment once you leave them behind, how would those badges be handled?  Can you just no longer get them once you leave Praetoria?  Can you still earn them on Primal Alignments?

 

There's a lot of questions that would need to be answered here; some hefty considerations especially for the badge hunters among us.  Possibly some mechanics that will need to be coded.  Praetoria's not a full game experience, like the Primal Alignments are; that's why the changeover to a Primal alignment has to eventually happen for every Praetorian character.  You could in theory keep a Praetorian alignment to 50, but you're not intended to; its dedicated content ends at 20, and its available content ends at 35 at the latest.

 

It may be less work for the devs and less painful for the Cottage Rule to just leave things as they are.  At least, until Praetorian alignments can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Hero or Villain alignments fully.

 

 

Despite Praetoria (including FW and NW) not going up to lvl 50... it does not affect Day Jobs.  Level has NO bearing whatsoever.  Yes, all Praetorians will eventually go to Primal and pick either Hero-side or Villain-side... but again, this does not impact the current Day Job scheme in Praetoria....

 

As I mentioned above, logging out in the Trading House in Imp City earns you the "Day Trader / Marketeer" Day Job... this is both Primal Day Jobs into one and when you go to Primal, the badge will switch to the appropriate name for whatever alignment you pick.  Logging in the Imperial Bank of Praetoria earns the "Banker / Thief" Day Job.... again, both Primal naming convention.  There is no need for a "Praetorian" naming convention.  They can stick with what they have and are currently doing. 

 

As for Descriptions on badges, they also change depending on your alignment. This is a current in-game mechanic.  So this can happen too with Praetorian Day jobs you earn sub-lvl 50. So while a Praetorian, you get a Praetorian description of the badge -- like the example for Commuter you gave above -- then when you go Hero-side, the description changes to the Hero description (Or if there is a Villain equivalent, it switches to that, if you red-side).  It's simple.  You're really making this much harder than it needs to be.  lol  🙂    

 

[Darmian]

Fascinating.

[Glacier Peak]

19 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Fascinating.

I tell ya what! 

[Nerva]

Part of the reason I pointed out the level limitation was a case of, well, ignorance on my part. I was operating under the assumption that once a Praetorian character converted to a Primal alignment, they would effectively stop being Praetorians, aside from some mission flags and existing badges. I wasn't aware that the flag was persistent throughout the character's life.  It was @AboveTheChemist's post that made me realize my mistake.

 

So, I'm sorry about that.

 

I was a fairly avid badger on Live. I only ever had one Praetorian, however. So when it comes to badge changes, I'm pretty invested in seeing them done right. I don't like lazy changes to badges, such as proliferating badges across alignments carelessly.

 

I want to be clear; I'm not against the addition of more Day Jobs to Praetoria. With that said, porting them over in places where they might not fit well, or leaving in unfitting names or badge descriptions, is something I vehemently oppose. That's what I was afraid was being proposed here.  I'm aware - for the most part - of what the devs can do. But I don't know them beyond reputation, so I can't predict what they will do. For all I know, if enough people support a sloppy cut-and-paste job, they might go "hey, easy request" and do just that. That's what I want to prevent. I've seen that on other servers and I despise it.

 

So now there's no questions of my motivation here.

 

I think it'd be a good idea to establish just what a good Day Job badge port would look like. My basic criteria would be:

1. Earned in a logical, lore-consistent location.
2. Has a name and description that fits its location, lore, and alignment.
3. Fills a gap in that alignment's Day Job availability, and either is an equivalent for badges on other alignments, or has equivalents on other alignments.
4. If the badge is aligned, and obtainable by more than one alignment, its name and description must change to reflect its owner.
5. Must be obtainable, in some form, by every alignment, otherwise you create an imbalance for badgers.

 

So just as an example, @Frozen Burn's original idea for a "Reactor Worker" badge isn't something I'd support, unless it or a variation of it was also made available to both Heroes and Villains, since there's no equivalent of it for the other alignments.

 

Porting "Commuter" to the CTA terminals across Praetoria would be fine, so long as the Praetorian version mentions Praetoria and the CTA, instead of Paragon City's monorails. Villains can't earn it directly, but they have an equivalent in Pilot and can earn it as a Hero or Vig and then switch to get the villain version, so it's fine.

 

I'm waffling a bit on Clubber being added to Studio 55. If Studio 55 didn't have a portal to Pocket D inside of it, and Pocket D didn't already have an entrance in Nova Praetoria, I'd support it a lot more. As it stands, it's at most 1 extra zone transition. I don't feel that's too much to ask. Plus, no other alignment can get Clubber outside of Pocket D, so it'd be inconsistent to allow Praetorians to do so.

 

As far as adding Law Enforcer to the PPD precincts, that's still not something I'd recommend. Sure, not all the PPD hate your guts, but enough do just because of class friction that stepping on their toes and trying to do their job for them is going to cause some confrontations. Yeah it might be in-character for a Powers Division member to bully the PPD, but that's not something to make a habit of. Eventually, someone's going to ask the hard question of whether this is just Powers Division being Powers Division, or deliberate interference, which is treason.

 

Even if you're Resistance, mucking with PPD like that is going to draw the wrong kind of attention. Y'know the Seer kind.  If you're Resistance, Vanessa can protect you from most of it, but you don't want to invite enough suspicion to earn constant attention.  Either she'll slip up, or you will, and then you end up in the BAF getting visits from all the wrong women.  It's better to not make waves topside unless you can be gone by the time someone gets suspicious.  Powers Division isn't immune to the law; they just get a lot of leeway with it.

 

Heck, even being ex-PPD or being on good terms with the higher-ups isn't a guarantee of being welcomed.  Warrant catches crap from the rest of the PPD, and he used to be one of them until he joined Powers Division.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Nerva
Small edits in the interest of readability, also friggin' phone autocorrect! It's Praetoria, dammit, there's an A there!

[Darmian]

Powers Division IS law enforcement. It's just not uniformed PPD or plain clothes. When the Feds show up the locals might not like it but tough. 

Powers Division answers to White, ostensibly. The Seers answer to Tillman. And the secret assassins answer to Sinclair. But they're all law enforcement of one kind or another and the PPD precincts are central operation offices.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Darmian