More Day Jobs for Praetoria

[Frozen Burn]

I searched about Praetorian Day Jobs, but didn't find anything but a "bug" report for something that wasn't a bug.

 

Can we add getting Day Job credit for: 

• Commuter (logging of in the Nova, Imperial City, and Neutropolis train stations)
• Law Enforcer (logging of in any of the many police stations)
• Clubber (logging off in Studio 55)
• Mortician (logging off in Firstward / Nightward cemeteries)?  

 

Thanks!

[Six-Six]

There are no jobs in Praetoria, only your duty as a citizen. For the Emperor!

😉

Just checked the wiki, because I know my goldies (who haven't gone Primal) have some of the ones you mentioned. I don't want to check each toon atm, though. 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Praetorian_Day_Job_Badges

For Clubber, you need to go to Pocket D not Studio 55; it's just another door/portal near the entrance. kinda easy to miss, but easier to find than the Pocket D side.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Six-Six

[Zepp]

Praetorians also have access to the First Ward and Night Ward day jobs...

[Glacier Peak]

Praetorians can acquire the Commuter Day Job badge by going to Pocket D and asking Null to take them to either Halloween Atlas Park or Talos Island Tiki party then log out at the tram. 

[Oubliette_Red]

I brought this up in an older thread. Some of the areas where you'd expect there to be day jobs in Praetoria, like the Precincts, the rail and Studio 55 are absent. We shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get those.

 

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, Oubliette_Red said:

I brought this up in an older thread. Some of the areas where you'd expect there to be day jobs in Praetoria, like the Precincts, the rail and Studio 55 are absent. We shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get those.

That makes sense from a quality of life perspective, but canonically, they are crossing dimensional barriers in game to get these badges - there should be some portal looking hoops to jump through. 

[Frozen Burn]

18 hours ago, Six-Six said:

There are no jobs in Praetoria, only your duty as a citizen. For the Emperor!

😉

Just checked the wiki, because I know my goldies (who haven't gone Primal) have some of the ones you mentioned. I don't want to check each toon atm, though. 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Praetorian_Day_Job_Badges

For Clubber, you need to go to Pocket D not Studio 55; it's just another door/portal near the entrance. kinda easy to miss, but easier to find than the Pocket D side.

 

I know you're party kidding, but yes, there are Day Jobs available in Praetoria now, like at the auction house, the bank, a hospital, and the CDEC (university), and of course "Patroller" is always available.  And yes, I know how to get to Pocket D from Studio 55 -- but that's not the point.

 

8 hours ago, Zepp said:

Praetorians also have access to the First Ward and Night Ward day jobs...

 

4 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Praetorians can acquire the Commuter Day Job badge by going to Pocket D and asking Null to take them to either Halloween Atlas Park or Talos Island Tiki party then log out at the tram. 

 

Yes, I know how to get around the system to get these Day Job badges as a Praetorian -- that's not the issue.  And I know First Ward and Night Ward has some too... But the ones I list are places that SHOULD have Day Job credit even though it's not available (as @Oubliette_Red mentions above).  

 

33 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

That makes sense from a quality of life perspective, but canonically, they are crossing dimensional barriers in game to get these badges - there should be some portal looking hoops to jump through. 

 

That makes no sense at all and it is not canon.  At launch of Going Rogue, there wasn't any Day Jobs in Praetoria at all but the Devs did eventually put in a few.  I don't know why they did not put in all that they could have -- and I am sure they would put more if the game didn't close -- but it would be nice for the Homecoming Team to now finish it off and put in the rest possible.  

 

Also, Villains have different names for the same badge that you can get on Heroside without having to jump through a portal, for instance:  Care Giver vs. Pain Specialist for logging in a Hospital.  If you're a Vill, when you switch to Hero, your Pain Specialist badge turns to Care Giver and vice versa.  Same thing can be applied to Praetorian Badges.  Or...

 

Just keep with current system which doesn't have special names... currently, I'm logged out in the Trading House in Imp City and earning the "Day Trader / Marketeer" Badge.  In the Bank (vault), you earn the "Banker / Thief" Day Job.  These will turn to one or the other when I go to Primal Earth.  In the CDEC, you earn the "Professor" badge (which is same for Heroes and Vills).  There is no need -- canon or otherwise -- to make people jump through portals, hoops, or whatever to get Day Jobs that SHOULD already be available in "normal" places like a police station, a train terminal, or etc.  

Edited December 21, 2021 by Frozen Burn

[Glacier Peak]

39 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

That makes no sense at all and it is not canon.

Praetorian exists in a different dimension than Primal Earth. That is a fact.

[Nerva]

27 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Praetorian exists in a different dimension than Primal Earth. That is a fact.

 

It's true, but it's also a fact that Praetoria does have equivalents of many of the systems in Paragon City and the Rogue Isles, such as badges.  Heck, it's so comparable that the Medicom system in Praetoria is 100% compatible with that of Paragon City with no modification necessary.  A Praetorian can leave Praetoria, come to Paragon City, get their head kicked in and wake up in a Paragon hospital just as easily as any native Primal Hero, all without so much as a registration process.  Similarly, a Praetorian can come to Primal Earth, and any badges they earned in Praetoria are entirely carried over, including badges specific to Praetorians such as "Praetoria's Son/Daughter".

 

The question then is whether Day Jobs themselves are appropriate to Praetoria, which reveals possibly a second explanation as to why Praetoria doesn't have Day Jobs.  Day Jobs reflect your character doffing the costume and going in disguise to work a job as an 'ordinary' citizen, or doing volunteer work while not on the job.  In Praetoria, every person with powers is part of Powers Division.  You're not a sanctioned vigilante, you're a part of Praetoria's military-police-state complex.  Having an actual 'day job' would be difficult and inadvisable - you're always expected to be on duty.  Volunteer work, however, would be far more acceptable, even laudable; after all, you're voluntarily putting your abilities to use to better the lives Praetoria's citizenry, in even the most mundane respects.  That's good PR if I ever saw it.

 

So... IMO day job badges could exist in Praetoria, but they'd have to be named and flavored to reflect how Praetoria would see that activity.  Once a Praetorian moves over to Primal Earth, their badges could either be converted to the equivalent Primal badges, or left in their uniquely Praetorian form.

 

That's my take on it, anyway.

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Nerva
Small clarification

[Glacier Peak]

42 minutes ago, Nerva said:

 

It's true, but it's also a fact that Praetoria does have equivalents of many of the systems in Paragon City and the Rogue Isles, such as badges.  Heck, it's so comparable that the Medicom system in Praetoria is 100% compatible with that of Paragon City with no modification necessary.  A Praetorian can leave Praetoria, come to Paragon City, get their head kicked in and wake up in a Paragon hospital just as easily as any native Primal Hero, all without so much as a registration process.  Similarly, a Praetorian can come to Primal Earth, and any badges they earned in Praetoria are entirely carried over, including badges specific to Praetorians such as "Praetoria's Son/Daughter".

 

The question then is whether Day Jobs themselves are appropriate to Praetoria, which reveals possibly a second explanation as to why Praetoria doesn't have Day Jobs.  Day Jobs reflect your character doffing the costume and going in disguise to work a job as an 'ordinary' citizen, or doing volunteer work while not on the job.  In Praetoria, every person with powers is part of Powers Division.  You're not a sanctioned vigilante, you're a part of Praetoria's military-police-state complex.  Having an actual 'day job' would be difficult and inadvisable - you're always expected to be on duty.  Volunteer work, however, would be far more acceptable, even laudable; after all, you're voluntarily putting your abilities to use to better the lives Praetoria's citizenry, in even the most mundane respects.  That's good PR if I ever saw it.

 

So... IMO day job badges could exist in Praetoria, but they'd have to be named and flavored to reflect how Praetoria would see that activity.  Once a Praetorian moves over to Primal Earth, their badges could either be converted to the equivalent Primal badges, or left in their uniquely Praetorian form.

 

That's my take on it, anyway.

 

Yeah, I am in agreement on the comparison. I just thought it needed to be reiterated that the two are in separate dimensions canonically.

[A Cat]

Somehow I never realized that the transit in Praetoria didn't give the commuter day job. I always assumed that it would. It does seem like an oversight to be lacking all these day jobs in Praetoria. 

[Nerva]

Y'know, forget what I said previously.  Because not only is Praetoria supposed to have Day Jobs, there's even a Day Job Recuiter NPC in the Magisterium.

 

 

So yeah, apparently Praetoria has an official in-universe Day Job system.  Honestly I feel it could stand to be Praetoria-flavored a little better, perhaps framed as volunteer work for the good of Praetoria, but that's just a matter of rewriting dialogue.

 

There is this bit though, which is a tad concerning.

 

 

I don't have any objection to him telling me about Day Trader, but a loyalist in the center of the Magisterium probably should be a little more discreet about discussing things going on underground.  After all, the average citizen isn't even supposed to know anyone lives under there long-term.

 

That said, there's a few reasons why I could see a couple Day Jobs not being present.

Law Enforcer

PPD and Powers Division really don't get along.  You're kinda one or the other; not both.  Most PPD would resent some Powers Division punk coming around and doing everyday police work; they'd see it as stepping on their toes.

Commuter

If I remember right, the CTA transportation system is totally automated.  There's really nowhere for a Powers Division volunteer to work.

Shop Keeper

All vendors in Praetoria are manned by Clockwork.  There's really no stores.

 

I could also see good reasons for a couple Day Jobs being added, in addition to the ones shown in the image above and the ones @Frozen Burn put forward in the OP.

 

City Official

Location: Vicinity of Cole Tower, Magisterium, Nova Praetoria.

Smuggler

Location: Docks on the West Side of Imperial City -OR- Ship below the bridge in Neutropolis.

 

So, Praetoria does have Day Jobs, just not all the ones you might expect.  Some for good reason, others not so much.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Nerva
Additions

[Greycat]

Feels odd for me to say this, but... using "lore" as a reason to not have certain day jobs in Praetoria (especially because it's "a different dimension") is kind of silly. It's along the lines of "Influence/Infamy/Information" not actually being money, but a way to get people to give you things. Does anyone *really* go with that? (Especially after the market - and INF system - merge.) Most folks seem to take it as a small, thin, odd tasting layer of lore flavoring over "this is money" if they even think about it.

 

I mean, sure. Some of my characters *do* have jobs outside of "be a hero/villain/thing." Nursing, working with the cops (even if they're not one,) etc. At the same time, they get parked in different places for different day jobs - it doesn't mean my dark/pain corr, who's an EMT, is also a professor, a mortician, a law enforcer, a shopkeeper, a magician, a scavenger, a predator, a survivalist, an archaeologist, a Time Lord and the Cold Hand of Death.

 

Plus, these do  have in game effects (buffs,) albeit small ones, which are unavailable to Praetorians who have the appropriate *locations* for them that don't give credit.

 

So... yeah. I'd be solidly on "let the appropriate locations give the appropriate credit for day jobs badges, without hoops."

[Frozen Burn]

1 hour ago, Nerva said:

Y'know, forget what I said previously.  Because not only is Praetoria supposed to have Day Jobs, there's even a Day Job Recuiter NPC in the Magisterium.

 

 

So yeah, apparently Praetoria has an official in-universe Day Job system.  Honestly I feel it could stand to be Praetoria-flavored a little better, perhaps framed as volunteer work for the good of Praetoria, but that's just a matter of rewriting dialogue.

 

There is this bit though, which is a tad concerning.

 

 

I don't have any objection to him telling me about Day Trader, but a loyalist in the center of the Magisterium probably should be a little more discreet about discussing things going on underground.  After all, the average citizen isn't even supposed to know anyone lives under there long-term.

 

That said, there's a few reasons why I could see a couple Day Jobs not being present.

Law Enforcer

PPD and Powers Division really don't get along.  You're kinda one or the other; not both.  Most PPD would resent some Powers Division punk coming around and doing everyday police work; they'd see it as stepping on their toes.

Commuter

If I remember right, the CTA transportation system is totally automated.  There's really nowhere for a Powers Division volunteer to work.

Shop Keeper

All vendors in Praetoria are manned by Clockwork.  There's really no stores.

 

I could also see good reasons for a couple Day Jobs being added, in addition to the ones shown in the image above and the ones @Frozen Burn put forward in the OP.

 

City Official

Location: Vicinity of Cole Tower, Magisterium, Nova Praetoria.

Smuggler

Location: Docks on the West Side of Imperial City -OR- Ship below the bridge in Neutropolis.

 

So, Praetoria does have Day Jobs, just not all the ones you might expect.  Some for good reason, others not so much.

 

 

As @Greycat stated, Lore should have nothing to do with whether Day Jobs should or should not be available.  But if you want to go down that route...  Praetorian Earth is a COPY of Primal Earth that just had different circumstances affect its outcome.  So yes, it IS lore / canon / whatever that they would have Day Jobs too  -- and as this is a GAME -- just make it for all the same places POSSIBLE (not all are appropriate) that you can in Primal.  I kick myself for not mentioning the Day Job Recruiter sooner to help spark the lightbulb.  

 

Speaking of Day Job Recruiter, even they have wrong info -- and you've circled one of them: 

• Day Trader is actually given for logging in the Auction House in Imp City (this is as it should be) -- not the Underground.  So the text is apparently wrong.  There is currently no Day Job for logging in the Tunnels -- it would be great if they could put this unique Day Job in as it was apparently intended.
• Fashion Designer is apparently copy and pasted text from Primal Day Job Recruiters as there is no Tailor building to log out in... the Tailor is a contact out on the street, just like the stores -- so Fashion Designer (along with Shop Keeper) would NOT be an option for Praetorians and this should be removed from the Day Job Recruiter's text.  

As for some of the others you mentioned:

• Law Enforcer -- the PPD is divided on their feelings towards Powers Division.  There are many missions where you help and save the PPD and they are grateful -- and yes, there are many where the the others want to take you down.  HOWEVER< it is Lore that Praetor White wants Powers Division to work with them and Provost Marchant would run s the PPD wants Powers Division (ie you) to work with them -- so it is completely believable for you to log off in the Precinct Station and earn a Day Job.
• Commuter -- There are people inside the stations working the ticket sales booths.... so there are Day Jobs to be had there.  Or maybe, you work on maintaining the system and earn your free Commuter pass (ie temp power) for that.
• Shop Keeper -- obviously, as I and you also mentioned above, this is not an option as the stores are contacts -- which is why I left it (and the Tailor) off my original list.

As for your suggestions of new places -- I was trying to keep this to existing Day Jobs for ease on the Devs... but why not add them in too!  😄  I love the suggestion of City Official as I was thinking that would be a good one to add in too!  However, Smuggler is the Villain version of Commuter -- it switches when you go from Hero to Villain and vice versa -- so not sure you really gain anything for this in addition to Commuter at the train stations -- it would have to be one or the other.

 

Some additional new Day Jobs that I'd like to see in game:  

• Reporter -- for logging out at the TPN complex. 
• Corporate Stooge / Administrator / Office Worker (pick something appropriate)-- for logging out in an office building somewhere.  And this could also be a Primal (Hero & Villain) Day Job as well.
• Reactor Worker -- for logging off at Keys' reactors and Terra Volta reactor (maybe earn a protection from Defense Debuff temp power?)
• Tunnel Worker -- as I mentioned above and as mentioned by the Day Job Recruiter, there is supposed to be a Day Job for logging in the Underground and you get a temp power to quickly port you there.  Just adding tot he list here so it doesn't get lost above.  

[Zepp]

On 12/21/2021 at 8:19 AM, Frozen Burn said:

I searched about Praetorian Day Jobs, but didn't find anything but a "bug" report for something that wasn't a bug.

 

Can we add getting Day Job credit for: 

• Commuter (logging of in the Nova, Imperial City, and Neutropolis train stations)
• Law Enforcer (logging of in any of the many police stations)
• Clubber (logging off in Studio 55)
• Mortician (logging off in Firstward / Nightward cemeteries)?  

 

Thanks!

 

Commuter, I believe that it was originally an option, but got buggy so it was removed (may be misremembering)
Law Enforcer, this should definitely be there, but isn't.

Clubber, available in Pocket D. I agree that it ought to be available in Club 55, but there is a workaround.

Mortician, already available in First/Night Wards.

You can also get the Shop Keeper badge if you jump inside the shop in Winter Forest.

 

23 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

As @Greycat stated, Lore should have nothing to do with whether Day Jobs should or should not be available.  But if you want to go down that route...  Praetorian Earth is a COPY of Primal Earth that just had different circumstances affect its outcome.  So yes, it IS lore / canon / whatever that they would have Day Jobs too  -- and as this is a GAME -- just make it for all the same places POSSIBLE (not all are appropriate) that you can in Primal.  I kick myself for not mentioning the Day Job Recruiter sooner to help spark the lightbulb.  

 

Speaking of Day Job Recruiter, even they have wrong info -- and you've circled one of them: 

• Day Trader is actually given for logging in the Auction House in Imp City (this is as it should be) -- not the Underground.  So the text is apparently wrong.  There is currently no Day Job for logging in the Tunnels -- it would be great if they could put this unique Day Job in as it was apparently intended.
• Fashion Designer is apparently copy and pasted text from Primal Day Job Recruiters as there is no Tailor building to log out in... the Tailor is a contact out on the street, just like the stores -- so Fashion Designer (along with Shop Keeper) would NOT be an option for Praetorians and this should be removed from the Day Job Recruiter's text.  

As for some of the others you mentioned:

• Law Enforcer -- the PPD is divided on their feelings towards Powers Division.  There are many missions where you help and save the PPD and they are grateful -- and yes, there are many where the the others want to take you down.  HOWEVER< it is Lore that Praetor White wants Powers Division to work with them and Provost Marchant would run s the PPD wants Powers Division (ie you) to work with them -- so it is completely believable for you to log off in the Precinct Station and earn a Day Job.
• Commuter -- There are people inside the stations working the ticket sales booths.... so there are Day Jobs to be had there.  Or maybe, you work on maintaining the system and earn your free Commuter pass (ie temp power) for that.
• Shop Keeper -- obviously, as I and you also mentioned above, this is not an option as the stores are contacts -- which is why I left it (and the Tailor) off my original list.

As for your suggestions of new places -- I was trying to keep this to existing Day Jobs for ease on the Devs... but why not add them in too!  😄  I love the suggestion of City Official as I was thinking that would be a good one to add in too!  However, Smuggler is the Villain version of Commuter -- it switches when you go from Hero to Villain and vice versa -- so not sure you really gain anything for this in addition to Commuter at the train stations -- it would have to be one or the other.

 

Some additional new Day Jobs that I'd like to see in game:  

• Reporter -- for logging out at the TPN complex. 
• Corporate Stooge / Administrator / Office Worker (pick something appropriate)-- for logging out in an office building somewhere.  And this could also be a Primal (Hero & Villain) Day Job as well.
• Reactor Worker -- for logging off at Keys' reactors and Terra Volta reactor (maybe earn a protection from Defense Debuff temp power?)
• Tunnel Worker -- as I mentioned above and as mentioned by the Day Job Recruiter, there is supposed to be a Day Job for logging in the Underground and you get a temp power to quickly port you there.  Just adding tot he list here so it doesn't get lost above.  

Definitely need a way of getting Fashion Designer...

I like the other additional Day Jobs. How would Reporter port to those dirty ass Primal Earthers?

[Glacier Peak]

When did anyone say lore was the reason for not having Day Jobs? 

[Nerva]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

Feels odd for me to say this, but... using "lore" as a reason to not have certain day jobs in Praetoria (especially because it's "a different dimension") is kind of silly. It's along the lines of "Influence/Infamy/Information" not actually being money, but a way to get people to give you things. Does anyone *really* go with that? (Especially after the market - and INF system - merge.) Most folks seem to take it as a small, thin, odd tasting layer of lore flavoring over "this is money" if they even think about it.

 

I mean, sure. Some of my characters *do* have jobs outside of "be a hero/villain/thing." Nursing, working with the cops (even if they're not one,) etc. At the same time, they get parked in different places for different day jobs - it doesn't mean my dark/pain corr, who's an EMT, is also a professor, a mortician, a law enforcer, a shopkeeper, a magician, a scavenger, a predator, a survivalist, an archaeologist, a Time Lord and the Cold Hand of Death.

 

Plus, these do  have in game effects (buffs,) albeit small ones, which are unavailable to Praetorians who have the appropriate *locations* for them that don't give credit.

 

So... yeah. I'd be solidly on "let the appropriate locations give the appropriate credit for day jobs badges, without hoops."

 

I'd see the argument for this if Praetoria was a complete 1-50 experience, like Paragon City and the Rogue Isles are.  At it stands, it only goes to 20, 35 if you count First Ward and Night Ward. 

As a result, I see it as okay okay that Praetoria doesn't have all of the same amenities as Primal Earth, for lore reasons.  After all, when you hit 20, unless you deliberately take pains to stay in Praetoria, you're going to leave for Primal Earth anyway, and you can leave Praetoria early and visit Primal Earth through Pocket D and Ouro.  If you really don't care about lore, these badges are still available to you at whatever level you want to get them at.  You just have to go a bit further afield to do so.

 

It's basically a question of determining what locations are 'appropriate' or 'inappropriate' locations for a day job, and for this, lore's as valid a reason as any.

 

For example, you take your logic to the other extreme, then Heroes should be able to get the Pilot badge: there's landing platforms for Longbow and PPD aircraft, like the helipad in Kings Row attached to the Police station.  The only reason why you can't is because those spots aren't day job locations (game mechanic) the badge is flagged as villain (game mechanic) and makes specific reference to Arachnos fliers in its description (lore, and the reason it's flagged as a villain-specific badge).  Even if you were to insist that it only include nonhostile arachnos fliers, there's still the landing pads in Warburg and Siren's Call that Heroes could potentially camp, or they could switch alignment to vigilante and visit any of the Arachnos Flier landing pads in the Isles.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Nerva
Clarificiation

[A Cat]

21 minutes ago, Zepp said:

I like the other additional Day Jobs. How would Reporter port to those dirty ass Primal Earthers?

Maybe the area around the Atlas statue/city hall where all those heroes, PPD spokesmen, etc are giving interviews.

[Frozen Burn]

27 minutes ago, Zepp said:

 

Commuter, I believe that it was originally an option, but got buggy so it was removed (may be misremembering)
Law Enforcer, this should definitely be there, but isn't.

Clubber, available in Pocket D. I agree that it ought to be available in Club 55, but there is a workaround.

Mortician, already available in First/Night Wards.

You can also get the Shop Keeper badge if you jump inside the shop in Winter Forest.

 

Definitely need a way of getting Fashion Designer...

I like the other additional Day Jobs. How would Reporter port to those dirty ass Primal Earthers?

 

Yes, as i stated above in previous posts, I know of the workarounds, but that isn't the point here.  🙂  

 

As for Reporter... it doesn't need to port to Primal.  First Ward Day Jobs do not port to Primal.  Villains have Day Jobs that are unique and not available to heroes too.  It is fine if Reporter is unique to Praetoria.  

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Nerva said:

 

I'd see the argument for this if Praetoria was a complete 1-50 experience, like Paragon City and the Rogue Isles are.  At it stands, it only goes to 20, 35 if you count First Ward and Night Ward. 

As a result, I see it as okay okay that Praetoria doesn't have all of the same amenities as Primal Earth, for lore reasons.  After all, when you hit 20, unless you deliberately take pains to stay in Praetoria, you're going to leave for Primal Earth anyway, and you can leave Praetoria early and visit Primal Earth through Pocket D and Ouro.  If you really don't care about lore, these badges are still available to you at whatever level you want to get them at.  You just have to go a bit further afield to do so.

 

I honestly don't think level range is a good counterargument. The locations exist, as mentioned (the trains, for instance, or the nightclub.) If I can stand by a train as a level 1 in Atlas and get commuter, there's no reason I can't stand in/by a station in Praetoria and do the same thing with an equivalent badge. And as there *are* equivalents, such as patroller (just ... log off, basically,) which don't require any additional hoop jumping, I can't buy the "you just have to take extra steps or wait longer."

 

Now, I'm *not* saying add additional locations that don't already exist - the ones for arenas, PVP zones, etc - in Praetoria. There's no reason for that. However, with existing appropriate locations? It looks simply like a matter of "oops, they forgot to put them in," and a character shouldn't be penalized with extra steps *just* for starting in Praetoria. This is 100% an oversight that could use correcting, and not even a high priority one at that.

[Frozen Burn]

9 minutes ago, Nerva said:

 

I'd see the argument for this if Praetoria was a complete 1-50 experience, like Paragon City and the Rogue Isles are.  At it stands, it only goes to 20, 35 if you count First Ward and Night Ward. 

As a result, I see it as okay okay that Praetoria doesn't have all of the same amenities as Primal Earth, for lore reasons.  After all, when you hit 20, unless you deliberately take pains to stay in Praetoria, you're going to leave for Primal Earth anyway, and you can leave Praetoria early and visit Primal Earth through Pocket D and Ouro.  If you really don't care about lore, these badges are still available to you at whatever level you want to get them at.  You just have to go a bit further afield to do so.

 

It's basically a question of determining what locations are 'appropriate' or 'inappropriate' locations for a day job, and for this, lore's as valid a reason as any.

 

For example, you take your logic to the other extreme, then Heroes should be able to get the Pilot badge: there's landing platforms for Longbow and PPD aircraft, like the helipad in Kings Row attached to the Police station.  The only reason why you can't is because those spots aren't day job locations (game mechanic) the badge is flagged as villain (game mechanic) and makes specific reference to Arachnos fliers in its description (lore, and the reason it's flagged as a villain-specific badge).  Even if you were to insist that it only include nonhostile arachnos fliers, there's still the landing pads in Warburg and Siren's Call that Heroes could potentially camp, or they could switch alignment to vigilante and visit any of the Arachnos Flier landing pads in the Isles.

 

 

It doesn't matter if Praetoria (including FW and NW) does not got to lvl 50.  This is a thriving environment and there are Day Jobs to be had -- NOT ALL need to be available -- but those that are PLAUSIBLE should be.  That is all this thread is about.  

 

We can argue lore for years.  The fact is, it's plausible (lore-wise / reality-wise) for above stated locations to provide game mechanic Day Jobs. 

 

And regarding the Pilot badge argument you present where the Day Job description in the badge is referencing Rogue Island Fliers only... of course it does, it's currently a Villain only badge.  But this COULD be opened up to Heroes and just like other Hero/Villain shared Day Jobs, the description would also change given your alignment.  So your argument that it's lore for only villains is not reasonable either.  But at the end of the day... I am fine with this being a Villain-only badge.  (Opening up to Hero-side is for another thread.)

[Nerva]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

Now, I'm *not* saying add additional locations that don't already exist - the ones for arenas, PVP zones, etc - in Praetoria. There's no reason for that. However, with existing appropriate locations? It looks simply like a matter of "oops, they forgot to put them in," and a character shouldn't be penalized with extra steps *just* for starting in Praetoria. This is 100% an oversight that could use correcting, and not even a high priority one at that.

 

Again, it's a matter of determining whether an appropriate location already exists.  Looking at the badge description closer, I could see getting Commuter at the CTA, since you just have to travel the rail system rather than help operate it.  But I couldn't see Law Enforcer, because the Praetoria Police Department absolutely does not want you in their day-to-day business. 

 

Sure, Provost Marchand wants Powers Division and PPD to work together more, and there's cops that appreciate it when you step in to rescue them, but Praetor White absolutely does not care if you bust their heads so long as you don't embarass the Division (he says as much in his story arc), and just walking by most officers on the street is liable to get them either calling you a freak, threatening you, or feeling threatened enough by you to demand that you back off.  In even the most accepting members of the PPD, they see you as having your job, and them as having theirs.  You aren't welcome to play cop at their precinct.

 

I see lore as a valid reason for a badge to not be granted at a certain location, because lore reasons determine whether those locations are plausible or not.  And honestly, I think you and Frozen Burn feel the same way, even if you don't realize it.

Let me give some context and an example or half-dozen...

 

3 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

Villains have Day Jobs that are unique and not available to heroes too.

 

Step back and ask yourself, "why is it okay that villains have day jobs that are unique and not available to heroes?"  Well that's because heroes have mechanical equivalents with different names and descriptions, earned in different locations, all for lore reasons.

 

All of the 'unique' villain day job badges have a mechanically equivalent version heroside and vice versa.  Smuggler <-> Shop Keeper; Demagogue <-> City Official; Arachnos Agent <-> Law Enforcer; Arachnos Official <-> Dimensional Explorer; Crey Employee <-> Intern; Pilot <-> Commuter.  The only differences between these pairs is where they're earned, and that's largely because of lore reasons - such as their names and badge descriptions.

They could've totally had the day job for the Arachnos Fliers be Commuter instead of Pilot.  Mechanically, the fliers are the closest thing to the trams in Paragon, and both Commuter and Pilot have the same rewards to begin with.  But they went the extra step and separated them into two badges with different descriptions that don't even mutually cross-award one another when you switch alignments.  Why?  Because it wouldn't make sense to award a badge for riding around the trams in paragon for flying an Arachnos VTOL for Lord Recluse.  There's no mechanical reason; only lore and storytelling.

Then there's Day Job badges that are earned in the same places on both sides, are earnable by both sides, have the same rewards, but have different names and descriptions.  Those are Banker <-> Thief; Caregiver <-> Pain Specialist; Day Trader <-> Marketeer; Patroller <-> Criminal.  Architect; Fashion Designer; and Professor.  And finally there's the badges that are awarded to both sides irrespective of alignment, most of which are associated with cross-alignment locations: Architect, Chronologist, Cimeroran, Clubber, Cold Hand of Death, Duelist, D.U.S.T. Ranger, Fashion Designer, Midnighter, Monitor Duty, Mortician, Predator, Professor, Psychologist, Scavenger, Survivalist, and Vanguard Recruit,

 

I know this has been a lot to read so here's the TL:DR up to this point: There's a lot of deliberate work that went in to making sure that the badges that award to everyone regardless of alignment have names and descriptions that make sense regardless of alignment.  Even more work went into the badges that switch names and description based on alignment.  Entire new mechanics were written for badges that switch names when you switch alignments, but have a completely different badge as their equivalent on the opposite side.  The "it's just a game, lore doesn't matter" excuse doesn't fly, because there's no mechanical reason to do this extra work in the first place.

So for Day Job badges that don't make sense within lore for Praetorians, come up with Praetorian equivalents.

• Fashion Designer is supposed to exist in Praetoria, judging from the fact that the Day Job Recruiter NPC mentions it, but there's no areas properly flagged for it.  Probably because the only dedicated tailor in Praetoria, Rita Mayfair, stands outside instead of being indoors.
• I'll agree that they should have an equivalent of Commuter at the CTA stations, but possibly renamed and with a description that doesn't reference Paragon City.
• Similarly, an equivalent of Clubber could be given at Studio 55 and the Loyalist Lounge, with the mention of Pocket D removed from the description.  Though this would make goldside the only side that gets Clubber outside of Pocket D.  Also it's worth mentioning that there's a portal to Pocket D within Studio 55 (it's under the stairs leading to the upstairs bar).
• Setting aside the friction between PPD and Powers Division, Law Enforcer has a description that specifically mentions the Paragon Police Department.  You could change the description for Praetorians, or have an equivalent; perhaps "IDF Reservist" located at the IDF base in Neutropolis.
• City Official might make sense placed at the Cole Tower in Nova Praetoria, but its description specifically mentions Paragon City, so you could make the badge "Bureaucrat" and change its description for Praetorians.
• Dimensional Explorer and Arachnos Official both don't fit for Praetorians who haven't left Praetoria, but there are Construction Sites in Neutropolis - the Praetorian equivalent badge could be "Foreman" with the description noting that flight packs are given to Foremen responsible for managing the Clockwork at these construction sites to prevent accidents.  Alternatively, @Frozen Burn's "Reactor Worker" could be made an equivalent of this.
• @Frozen Burn, your "Reporter" idea, located at TPN, would make a good equivalent for the Hero Intern and Villain Crey Employee badges.

 

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

I honestly don't think level range is a good counterargument. The locations exist, as mentioned (the trains, for instance, or the nightclub.) If I can stand by a train as a level 1 in Atlas and get commuter, there's no reason I can't stand in/by a station in Praetoria and do the same thing with an equivalent badge. And as there *are* equivalents, such as patroller (just ... log off, basically,) which don't require any additional hoop jumping, I can't buy the "you just have to take extra steps or wait longer."

 

There's a reason I bring up the level range.

Every Praetorian character will have to be converted to a Primal Earth alignment sooner or later.

 

Which begs the question as to what happens with all of the equivalent badges up above, if they're implemented.  Do they convert over to their Primal alignment equivalents?  Are they renamed to reflect Primal alignments, like Hero and villain Day Job badges do when you switch?  Since you can't convert to a Praetorian alignment once you leave them behind, how would those badges be handled?  Can you just no longer get them once you leave Praetoria?  Can you still earn them on Primal Alignments?

 

There's a lot of questions that would need to be answered here; some hefty considerations especially for the badge hunters among us.  Possibly some mechanics that will need to be coded.  Praetoria's not a full game experience, like the Primal Alignments are; that's why the changeover to a Primal alignment has to eventually happen for every Praetorian character.  You could in theory keep a Praetorian alignment to 50, but you're not intended to; its dedicated content ends at 20, and its available content ends at 35 at the latest.

 

It may be less work for the devs and less painful for the Cottage Rule to just leave things as they are.  At least, until Praetorian alignments can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Hero or Villain alignments fully.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Nerva
Some corrections, and efforts to make this post easier to read

[lemming]

On 12/21/2021 at 6:51 AM, Glacier Peak said:

Praetorians can acquire the Commuter Day Job badge by going to Pocket D and asking Null to take them to either Halloween Atlas Park or Talos Island Tiki party then log out at the tram. 

I learned something today.

 

I did just check and didn't get the Commuter Dayjob Icon in the Talos Tram station, but it did appear in the Atlas Halloween one.

Currently logged my Praetorian out in the Winter Store.   (In about a week, hope to get up to 17 Dayjobs for her...)

[lemming]

On the Dayjobs, there are definite Lore reasons for a lot of them to not work as written currently, but it would be easy to add a Praetorian version of the same badge, just like the ones you get when you switch from Blue to Red.  Same basic badge, different name and description.

[AboveTheChemist]

1 hour ago, Nerva said:

Which begs the question as to what happens with all of the equivalent badges up above, if they're implemented.  Do they convert over to their Primal alignment equivalents?  Are they renamed to reflect Primal alignments, like Hero and villain Day Job badges do when you switch?  Since you can't convert to a Praetorian alignment once you leave them behind, how would those badges be handled?  Can you just no longer get them once you leave Praetoria?  Can you still earn them on Primal Alignments?

 

As far as badges are concerned, Praetorians remain Praetorians even after they leave for Primal Earth. Specifically, there is a subset of badges (represented mostly by the Praetorian achievement badges, but also including a Praetorian-only Patroller badge, and the Praetoria's Son/Daughter badge) that are treated as completely separate badges from their Primal equivalents, with different settitle IDs and different internal badge IDs. Praetorians will only ever earn the Praetorian versions of those badges, and characters that start on Primal Earth will only ever earn the Primal equivalents. So there is some precedent (including one day job badge) for handling badges differently for Praetorians and Primals.

Edited December 22, 2021 by AboveTheChemist