Kheldians: Why not make Cosmic Balance a Team Buff?

[arcane]

31 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Just another data point that affects my opinion of Khels. These were all single AT, max diff, kill what's in the way, ITF runs with my SG. Khels had the worst time by a bit and the most deaths by a lot. I will note, however, that we had a lot of HO builds and I have no doubt that a full team of T4ed triformers would do far better. But still... ouch.

I could see khelds coming in last here even with more tightly controlled testing, but 115 deaths = something was up, yeah. I don’t see why any single player of any powerset combo ever would ever need to die 115/8 times on an ITF unless some IO/Incarnate goodies were in very short supply.

 

Personally, I have to start blaming drugs if I die half that much ever outside of Aeon. Tho I haven’t done a strict all kheld one - all EAT’s definitely but not all HEAT’s yet.

Edited January 11, 2022 by arcane

[Zeraphia]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

I could see khelds coming in last here even with more tightly controlled testing, but 115 deaths = something was up, yeah. I don’t see why any single player of any powerset combo ever would ever need to die 115/8 times on an ITF unless some IO/Incarnate goodies were in very short supply.

 

Personally, I have to start blaming drugs if I die half that much ever outside of Aeon.

I actually think this is more understandable than it would appear. The way PB/WS works is that they have high resistances, but not the best defenses. When you encounter a lot of +4/x8 cimmies, it's very easy for them to completely shred all of your defenses and cascade you down with high damage melee attacks at which point their moderate damage output doesn't compensate for the damage received. Further, the crystals (I believe) cause very high damage to Khelds in the second mission and given this is a group of all Khelds, would explain a fair number of deaths.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Zeraphia

[Greycat]

10 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

While I would admit these numbers are far from scientific and completely 1:1, I do think he makes a point about how Khelds currently function as a group in comparison to other ATs. It kind of surprised me that Kheldians held nearly triple the amount of deaths of any other AT category with some of the longest times taken to complete a task force. What's even more striking is how vastly superior VEATs were in comparison to Khelds.

 

With his SG. Who's in his sg? Are they at all familiar with Khelds? Do they share his attitude about them, and did that affect their approach? How are they built? Even the "a number of HO builds" doesn't specify "on the khelds," or "across all ATs," or numbers, or much of anything else. There's *so much* that goes 100% unanswered here that they're solidly, as I said, "so what" numbers. He doesn't even say if they were PBs, WS or a mix - the two play *quite* differently. Were they a bunch of people unfamiliar with Warshades and how to leverage them just thinking "run into a team and mire, oh, look, dead?"  Did they all just humanform-and-scrapperlock? That'll definitely get them killed.

 

Like I said. "A bunch of so what numbers." Showing a chart of just how many carrots his SG ate in the same runs would be about as useful.

 

What I'm *most* amused by on this is his need to react to what's fairly obviously a tongue-in-cheek reply to begin with.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Greycat

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

I could see khelds coming in last here even with more tightly controlled testing, but 115 deaths = something was up, yeah. I don’t see why any single player of any powerset combo ever would ever need to die 115/8 times on an ITF unless some IO/Incarnate goodies were in very short supply.

 

Personally, I have to start blaming drugs if I die half that much ever outside of Aeon. Tho I haven’t done a strict all kheld one - all EAT’s definitely but not all HEAT’s yet.

 

Considering the AT usage numbers from two years ago, and considering our rule was bring whatcha got even if it ain't 50 for all of those runs, it's entirely possible that the Khel run had fewer properly tricked out builds. I was on a fully T3ed HO PB but I didn't track the others. But given our less than rigorous demands, I'd be shocked if we had any runs without a few sub 50s. Well, the farmers were probably all 50 but I missed that one.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Even the "a number of HO builds" doesn't specify "on the khelds," or "across all ATs," or numbers, or much of anything else.

 

HO here means Human Only since it related specifically to an all Khel run.

[Zeraphia]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

 

With his SG. Who's in his sg? Are they at all familiar with Khelds? Do they share his attitude about them, and did that affect their approach? How are they built? Even the "a number of HO builds" doesn't specify "on the khelds," or "across all ATs," or numbers, or much of anything else. There's *so much* that goes 100% unanswered here that they're solidly, as I said, "so what" numbers. He doesn't even say if they were PBs, WS or a mix - the two play *quite* differently. Were they a bunch of people unfamiliar with Warshades and how to leverage them just thinking "run into a team and mire, oh, look, dead?"  Did they all just humanform-and-scrapperlock? That'll definitely get them killed.

 

Like I said. "A bunch of so what numbers." Showing a chart of just how many carrots his SG ate in the same runs would be about as useful.

I edited in my message (apologies if you did not read it before typing this) that my SG ran similar trials, with the same people running the same ATs, and fully IO'd/incarnates, and we received similar albeit slightly less drastic results. 

 

Given this SG has very experienced players in it that have actually set speedrunning records and other extremely difficult content I can't really say it's solely due to lack of skill or coordination. 

[Greycat]

16 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

HO here means Human Only since it related specifically to an all Khel run.

 

Which was unclear, given that also stands for Hamidon origin, and could have meant "We had people running non IO builds."

 

Edit: Disregard the rest, as my brain went from "some" to "all" on the HO build bit. Doing five things at once.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Greycat

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Greycat said:

 

Which was unclear, given that also stands for Hamidon origin, and could have meant "We had people running non IO builds."

 

And which also means your group wasn't utilizing some of the very tools Khelds have to mitigate that damage, which yes, would have upped deaths, just like not running some of the armors or other tools in the other ATs. At the very least, a constant high-resistance form, secondary heal and (on WS) damage buff which can help redirect aggro while others (WS at least) buff as well from the same group.

 

Your SG ran with one hand tied behind their back, then, to put it differently.

 

As I stated, it was one MORE data point that affected MY opinion. It was your choice to come in all twisted out of shape about it. Are you now stating that Human Only (is that better?) isn't a viable build for someone that just wants to play and enjoy their Khel, since that's all that matters?

[Greycat]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

As I stated, it was one MORE data point that affected MY opinion. It was your choice to come in all twisted out of shape about it. Are you now stating that Human Only (is that better?) isn't a viable build for someone that just wants to play and enjoy their Khel, since that's all that matters?

 

See edit which I finished less than a minute before this posted, as I was addressing your specific run and misremembering a bit. (So you obviously wouldn't have seen it before replying.) 

 

Also, see prior comment to that about my initial reply which you're getting *awfully* defensive about.

 

That said, it *is* still a bunch of "so what' numbers, as far as I'm concerned. *shrug*

[arcane]

52 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Further, the crystals (I believe) cause very high damage to Khelds in the second mission and given this is a group of all Khelds, would explain a fair number of deaths.

Did not know that

[Aurora_Girl]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

Did not know that

 

Untrue. (So sayeth my data CoD genie)

 

Also, like. I'm in Bill's SG and I take full credit for playing a fully-PLd theorycraft-only human-only PB I literally had never played before on our all-HEAT ITF. The Unkillable Peacebringer (hard capped to all RES and perma-LF)

 

That said, I did not in any way die at a disproportionate rate to anyone else on the team. 

 

Khelds. Are. Dogshit. Period.

 

They're Sentinels with an identity crisis. Give them some sort of solo-only Vigilance-type inherent, make human damage better, and call it a start. 

[KaizenSoze]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

The chart makes me chuckle a bit. Not Fortunata, Night Widow, Bane, or Crab, just VEAT.

 

My VEATs have never taken double leadership, double assault yes.

 

I do hope one day that VEATs get a review, but even I must acknowledge that HEATs need it more.

Edited January 11, 2022 by KaizenSoze