Kheldians: Why not make Cosmic Balance a Team Buff?

[Bill Z Bubba]

No, really, why not? They need help. A lot of it.

 

Edit: But change the buff from other EATs. Slow resist don't cut it.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Gobbledygook]

I second this motion.

Do we have a third?

 

[arcane]

45 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

They need help. A lot of it.

Do they? Are we sure?

 

Your proposal sounds reasonable and fine to implement, but I’m skeptical of this statement considering I’m pretty sure

 

(1) your post history tells me you most likely think about 80% of powersets in the game are garbage. I’ve heard you praise maybe 5 sets in the game tops that weren’t available to Scrappers/Tankers, and if I had to guess I’d say you probably have more min-maxed no nonsense Bio Armor characters than all non-melee AT’s combined.

 

(2) my experience of Kheldians is consistently awesome AoE, awesome mitigation, and horrible single target DPS. Sounds kind of like a balanced product to me. Am I wrong?

 

Will a small buff push them over the edge on power creep? No. Do they need “a lot of help”? Not sure on that one.

Edited January 11, 2022 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

Do they? Are we sure?

 

Your proposal sounds reasonable and fine to implement, but I’m skeptical of this statement considering I’m pretty sure

 

(1) your post history tells me you most likely think about 80% of powersets in the game are garbage. I’ve heard you praise maybe 5 sets in the game tops that weren’t available to Scrappers/Tankers, and if I had to guess I’d say you probably have more min-maxed no nonsense Bio Armor characters than all non-melee AT’s combined.

 

(2) my experience of Kheldians is consistently awesome AoE, awesome mitigation, and horrible single target DPS. Sounds kind of like a balanced product to me. Am I wrong?

 

Will a small buff push them over the edge on power creep? No. Do they need “a lot of help”? Not sure on that one.

 

I have zero Kheldians now. Deleted the two I had after spending a night staring at Mids trying and failing to make something worthwhile out of my Warshade.

 

Can't log in to verify but I think I have 2 bio tanks, a bio brute and 2 bio scrappers. Compared to a fully T4ed fire/time blaster, and the following in various states of incarnate-hood:

time/fire def

fire/dark troller

earth/earth dom

dark/time troller

emp/nrg def

earth/fire dom

fire/dark cor

dark/pain troller

arch/ta blaster

sonic/dark cor

and quite a few more squishies that aren't 50 yet. So, no, your guess is wrong. Do I favor melee? Absolutely. And I have many non-bio melee characters, my three claws and SR using Bills at the top of that list.

 

As for your experience with Khels, considering how many characters I have with better mitigation, better aoe AND ST damage and have it all without being mezzed when I drop out of dwarf form, I'd have to argue that no, compared to every other AT, Kheldians are not a balanced package at all. Compared to running at +0/x1 w/o bosses, sure, they're fine.

 

Please remember that back on live, I had both a WS and a PB at 50 long before any tweaks and IOs and got them there mostly solo just like I did everything else. They're both cool as hell to watch, especially the warshade, but these days that's about the only positive thing I can say about them.

 

Yes, we've all seen what a fully kitted out MFin WS can do right up until it hits a hard target and runs out of fodder. Then it folds like a wet napkin. No, I don't consider that balanced at all, again, when compared to everything else we can choose to play.

 

But I'm not here to fix ALL of many problems with Kheldians. I was just asking for ONE tiny thing that would at least allow them to bring more to a team than they do now.

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I have zero Kheldians now. Deleted the two I had after spending a night staring at Mids trying and failing to make something worthwhile out of my Warshade.

 

Can't log in to verify but I think I have 2 bio tanks, a bio brute and 2 bio scrappers. Compared to a fully T4ed fire/time blaster, and the following in various states of incarnate-hood:

time/fire def

fire/dark troller

earth/earth dom

dark/time troller

emp/nrg def

earth/fire dom

fire/dark cor

dark/pain troller

arch/ta blaster

sonic/dark cor

and quite a few more squishies that aren't 50 yet. So, no, your guess is wrong. Do I favor melee? Absolutely. And I have many non-bio melee characters, my three claws and SR using Bills at the top of that list.

 

As for your experience with Khels, considering how many characters I have with better mitigation, better aoe AND ST damage and have it all without being mezzed when I drop out of dwarf form, I'd have to argue that no, compared to every other AT, Kheldians are not a balanced package at all. Compared to running at +0/x1 w/o bosses, sure, they're fine.

 

Please remember that back on live, I had both a WS and a PB at 50 long before any tweaks and IOs and got them there mostly solo just like I did everything else. They're both cool as hell to watch, especially the warshade, but these days that's about the only positive thing I can say about them.

 

Yes, we've all seen what a fully kitted out MFin WS can do right up until it hits a hard target and runs out of fodder. Then it folds like a wet napkin. No, I don't consider that balanced at all, again, when compared to everything else we can choose to play.

 

But I'm not here to fix ALL of many problems with Kheldians. I was just asking for ONE tiny thing that would at least allow them to bring more to a team than they do now.

Fair nuff. Like I said, your proposed buff sounds fine.

 

I still say your Bio-to-everything ratio is insane. Go try more stuff.

Edited January 11, 2022 by arcane

[TheZag]

Wouldnt it mean that kheldians will fall further behind if their buff goes to the whole group?  Im not against it,  but its buffing everyone else, not the kheldian.

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Wouldnt it mean that kheldians will fall further behind if their buff goes to the whole group?  Im not against it,  but its buffing everyone else, not the kheldian.

That would still constitute the Kheldian contributing more, not less. 

[arcane]

Also while we’re here can we pretty please have the Total Focus activation buff for Incandescent Strike? Mine does a huge burst of damage when loaded up with procs, but there’s so little it can be trusted not to corpse-blast...

[Bill Z Bubba]

I'm trying to think of it in terms of how they were initially introduced. But then I remember all the screaming. Most of it from me.

 

At release, Khels started out with debuffs that Cosmic Balance barely corrected if the Khel was on a full and balanced team. We finally got the devs to nuke the debuffs, but then we were left with an inherent that only functioned properly on full teams and dropped to 100% useless while solo. But even defenders now have an inherent that scales when shifting from solo to teamed.

 

While I'd like to see something similar with Khels, again, not this thread. Just trying to come up with something to start with. I have plenty of characters that I've given up soloing with so I'm not pushing for that here at this time but I can't drop it from my head completely when I look at the VEATs soloing without issue AND bringing huge buffs to teams.

[Glacier Peak]

I'd be open to testing an inherent similar to how the Defender inherent works. Scales both ways, more _______ while solo and less ______ while solo, then scales to less _______ while on a team, but more _________ on a team.

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

why not?

range issues

buff fairly small that it might not even be worth taking the time to rework

two-way certain ATs only issues.  like a tanker would benefit more of having a peacebringer around, meanwhile a warshade wont benefit much being around a tanker

 

with those in mind i hardly notice cosmic balance for myself in most situations

[Aurora_Girl]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

 

 

(1) your post history tells me you most likely think about 80% of powersets in the game are garbage. I’ve heard you praise maybe 5 sets in the game tops that weren’t available to Scrappers/Tankers, and if I had to guess I’d say you probably have more min-maxed no nonsense Bio Armor characters than all non-melee AT’s combined.

 

Hoo boy. 

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

 

Hoo boy. 

You me and Bill all know there are, at minimum, a few grains of truth embedded there. Come at me 🙂

[Doomguide2005]

24 minutes ago, arcane said:

You me and Bill all know there are, at minimum, a few grains of truth embedded there. Come at me 🙂

Maybe?  But it isn't BillZ we're trying to Cosmic Balance either 😜.

[SeraphimKensai]

Personally I've laid out a number of potential Kheldian changes over the years.

 

I think if we were to adjust the inherent, why not lean into the shape shifting, so the inherent changes based on what form you're in.

• Human form, grants a PBAoE buff based on team composition to the player and nearby teammates (30 feet?). Also Attacks have increased damage/tohit based on the rank of the mob (underling, minion, lieutenant, boss, elite boss, av, monster, giant monster).
• Nova form, increases damage done to targets based on their HP. Reverse Scourge, attacks do more to targets with more health (This makes for a good opening volley). Also Attacks have increased damage/tohit based on the rank of the mob (underling, minion, lieutenant, boss, elite boss, av, monster, giant monster).
• Dwarf form, I'd almost give them a fury bar, and once it hits stages 10/20/30/40/50/60/70/80/90/100 is does scaling bonus energy or negative energy damage depending on if peacebringer or warshade. Let's the bar lower as combat ends. Also Attacks have increased damage/tohit based on the rank of the mob (underling, minion, lieutenant, boss, elite boss, av, monster, giant monster).

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by SeraphimKensai

[Greycat]

Teams are already made much, much better by having a Kheld on them. Making the inherent also buff the team would be OP.

 

Besides, we all know people only want VEATs around for double-stacked leadership, not for anything else the character does.

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

VEATs for double-stacked leadership

Who actually does this these days?

I can see maybe Double Assaults but tactics/manu is just not worth it

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

Teams are already made much, much better by having a Kheld on them. Making the inherent also buff the team would be OP.

 

I'm honestly asking... how? What exactly does a Khel bring to a team? The versatility of off-tanking versus added damage output as the flow of battle changes? That's certainly useful in the very early game and it was useful back in the days before IOs but it has absolutely zero use in the post 50 game now that I've seen.

[Aurora_Girl]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

You me and Bill all know there are, at minimum, a few grains of truth embedded there. Come at me 🙂

 

I mean. You're not *wrong* I just have learned the bear is very grumpy and not to poke it unnecessarily. 😅

[Aurora_Girl]

22 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Who actually does this these days?

I can see maybe Double Assaults but tactics/manu is just not worth it

 

Every VEAT worth their undies, that's who. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

 

Just another data point that affects my opinion of Khels. These were all single AT, max diff, kill what's in the way, ITF runs with my SG. Khels had the worst time by a bit and the most deaths by a lot. I will note, however, that we had a lot of HO builds and I have no doubt that a full team of T4ed triformers would do far better. But still... ouch.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[kelika2]

31 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

Every VEAT worth their undies, that's who. 

Tactics is very rarely if ever needed unless some premade +4 Hellions or massive -acc stuff like CoT.  I personally cant justify the slot or enhancements dedicated to it

The in-power set Maneuvers is amazing, every character.  But the powerpool Maneuvers?  eh

And either assault is fine if there is room.  But set>pool priority.

 

Speaking purely from a wolf/crab point of view, I never could get into widows much.  even then the PP Maneuvers pales to foresight/in-power set

[Greycat]

15 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Just another data point that affects my opinion of Khels. These were all single AT, max diff, kill what's in the way, ITF runs with my SG. Khels had the worst time by a bit and the most deaths by a lot. I will note, however, that we had a lot of HO builds and I have no doubt that a full team of T4ed triformers would do far better. But still... ouch.

 

... and?

 

I'm seeing a "so what" bunch of numbers. *shrug*

 

As for your other question? It brings another player playing what they want to play and enjoying the game, ideally. That's all that matters.

[TheZag]

15 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Just another data point that affects my opinion of Khels. These were all single AT, max diff, kill what's in the way, ITF runs with my SG. Khels had the worst time by a bit and the most deaths by a lot. I will note, however, that we had a lot of HO builds and I have no doubt that a full team of T4ed triformers would do far better. But still... ouch.

 

A death every 38 seconds for over an hour.  Thats my kind of run.  My most epic run was on an ice/storm corruptor.  With 2 emp defenders and an emp controller i still died 12 times.  Didnt help that i kept dropping all my rain powers on myself and then hit fold space.

 

I started a warshade build that looked promising but im not familiar with all of the powers so i think i need to just make one and wing it to 50 so i can actually figure out what powers i want.

[Zeraphia]

11 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

... and?

 

I'm seeing a "so what" bunch of numbers. *shrug*

 

As for your other question? It brings another player playing what they want to play and enjoying the game, ideally. That's all that matters.

While I would admit these numbers are far from scientific and completely 1:1, I do think he makes a point about how Khelds currently function as a group in comparison to other ATs. It kind of surprised me that Kheldians held nearly triple the amount of deaths of any other AT category with some of the longest times taken to complete a task force. What's even more striking is how vastly superior VEATs were in comparison to Khelds. 

 

Again, one can and may argue "these are just numbers based on ITFs my Kheldian is so great," I have to be more critical of that sentiment. VEATs layer tons of damage amplification and defense mitigations to become a really destructive unit when combined. Kheldians don't have anywhere near the same effect. 

 

I do support the suggestion of a more team-play oriented buff that makes Kheldians more receptive to their teaming environments. Their solo-ability is decent but I think this does reflect (even if it is a bit biased) the lack of team synergy their kits possess.

 

Edit: I should add that I used to be in an SG that held weekly ITF "arenas" between different categories (like defenders vs corruptors, HEATs vs VEATs) and HEATs were the category that across the board did worse than anyone else. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Zeraphia